Cosplayer called 'racist' for dressing as black character

[SuperT]

It is a pretty insane statement. "Anything that COULD be deemed racist" creates such an impossibly wide spectrum of scenarios, it's almost laughable.

Oh come off it - it's 2014 not 1914. Everyone knows pretty damn well what can be construed as racist or ignorant in this day and age.

There's absolutely no excuse.

 

[Rocketman]

I could mention David Carradine, or a few old western films where whites played Native Americans in a respectable manner, but it's not terribly relevant.

Regardless where the act may or may not have happened to have its original examples, there's nothing inherently racist or malicious about the act. It can be done for racist purposes, but also for visual accuracy, as was the case with the cosplayer.

Rocketman and Howlett refer to art canvas. I agree with them.

Thank you for having an open mind and thinking about what I wrote, instead of going off the deep end without thinking critically.

 

[Rocketman]

Everyone knows pretty damn well what can be construed as racist or ignorant in this day and age.

Really?

 

[Guts]

A friend of mine had used make up to make his skin look white when he cosplayed as the Joker. Does this make him racist?

 

[The Question]

A friend of mine had used make up to make his skin look white when he cosplayed as the Joker. Does this make him racist?

No. Clowns are not a race.

 

[DeadPresident]

It is a pretty insane statement. "Anything that COULD be deemed racist" creates such an impossibly wide spectrum of scenarios, it's almost laughable. Also, compared to the world as a whole, Caucasian is second to Asian (#1). African is third. Is it okay for Caucasians to make fun of Asians, since we're a minority to them?

Should white people riot and cry out every time an Asian person dresses like Rick Grimes?

But this has nothing to do with racism. This has everything to do with a white individual (rightly or wrongly) not being 100% concerned with everyone who may have negative associations with whites attempting to imitate the skin color of groups 'they've' historically oppressed.

The strange thing about this scenario is people condemn her for doing this only because she's white and call her racist. Because everyone of a certain race carries all the historical events of their race with them for all eternity, and don't deserve to be judged on their personal merits but rather the associations of ideological categories like race, religion or gender. I could have sworn discriminating against someone based on their race was wrong, but apparently it's acceptable when that person is responsible by association for the crimes of their ancestors.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Oh come off it - it's 2014 not 1914. Everyone knows pretty damn well what can be construed as racist or ignorant in this day and age.

There's absolutely no excuse.

Remember guys, if it's not in ignorance or for racist reasons, it's either in forgetfulness, or for the sake of being politically correct.

Really?

Fair question.

 

[Howlett]

No. Clowns are not a race.

The Joker character has a race.

 

[newbrando]

I could mention David Carradine, or a few old western films where whites played Native Americans in a respectable manner, but it's not terribly relevant.

Er, Carradine is cited negatively in articles on "yellowface." From TV Tropes:
•Kung Fu: In this television series, David Carradine was Kwai Chang Caine and the character was made half-white. While the character of Caine was a sympathetic one, Carradine's casting gained notoriety because they passed over Bruce Lee, who had aided in creating the show with the sole purpose of starring in it.
•Carradine plays a comically yellowfaced Poon Dong in Crank High Voltage. The character seems to be intentionally offensive. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Yellowface

This is one of those things that happens when a culture gets appropriated by a racial majority. Most people don't know or don't care about the minorities that get rolled over for enjoyment. It's not like minorities complain just to complain. The appropriation of culture has real life consequences.

Also, I don't think it's so much that the Germans don't know that dressing up in blackface is offensive, it's just there's not enough of a backlash in their culture to care. I remember during the summer there were tons of articles about all those Germans showing up at the World Cup in blackface until finally FIFA had to ban blackface. Smh.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...al-discrimination-world-cup-article-1.1840919

 

[Shlee]

I could mention David Carradine, or a few old western films where whites played Native Americans in a respectable manner, but it's not terribly relevant.

White washing of PoC in movies is systemized. There is a lot of history to back this up. And it's a problem. No matter how "respectfully" you think you are playing a different race in a movie or tv show as a white person, why should someone choose a white person over someone who is -actually- that race? Because oppression and white privilege.

No matter how "respectful" it is, it's still racist.

Another ideological storm in a teacup. This girl didn't do anything to cause intentional offense or attempt to mock, deride, defame or insult. That being said I can understand how people might be offended due to its similarity to a sick practice of imitating Africans in a derogatory manner.

Both sides are entitled to their feelings and reactions, but it's getting blown out of proportion now. People should understand if you represent a privileged majority you need to be much more conscious of your conduct, because unfortunately separating someone's behaviour from their race/gender/ethnicity is almost impossible.

It is a pretty insane statement. "Anything that COULD be deemed racist" creates such an impossibly wide spectrum of scenarios, it's almost laughable. Also, compared to the world as a whole, Caucasian is second to Asian (#1). African is third. Is it okay for Caucasians to make fun of Asians, since we're a minority to them?

Most people are pretty rational, and have examples to back up why they are offended by something or why it can be deemed racist (as has been brought up in this discussion). Your argument is such a "slippery slope" logical fallacy. We are well aware that all situations can be looked at individually, and we also know when people are (generally) being rational and reasonable. I don't think anyone here has been irrational or unreasonable when it comes to the points they're making about how this can be construed as racist.

And again, it is not up for the privileged majority to tell a historically (and presently) oppressed minority what they should or shouldn't be offended by.

Also, in answer to your question, no. Because even if we are a minority to them, we have systematically oppressed and treated them like **** too. We as white people have invaded, raped, pillaged, appropriated, and stolen a lot of things from a lot of different cultures, and asserted our superiority in every instance we could, even if we are NOT the majority by numbers.

"Minority" in this instance can mean someone who as seen as "lesser", and even if they're a majority, trust me, white people see them as "lesser" people.

 

[DeadPresident]

ITT:

"Nobody should ever be judged or treated in a certain way just for the color of their skin".

*White person offers opinion*

"You have no right to comment here! You're white, and part of a genetically transmitted legacy of oppression that I associate with you just because of your skin color!".

White people need to learn that when it comes to any ideological discussions in the public domain, just shut the **** up. What people associate with "whiteness" is much, much stronger than the individual opinion or input any one person could ever offer.

 

[Shlee]

And yet I, as a white person, have offered my opinions and been quoted and agreed with by people of color (and even other white people) in this thread.

What people have a problem with is white people asserting their opinions over other people's opinions because they believe themselves to be right.

And the biggest issue is that we have systematically oppressed people of color all over the world, and even though we are trying to be better about it, we have such ingrained racism that we don't even necessarily know if we're being racist. And it's not up for us to say whether or not we are. White people in this country get treated better than every other group out there, and white men get treated the best. There is an abnormal ratio of black to white prisoners, and you can't tell me that you don't see racial bias in police officers and other officials.

We have a black president, and he gets more **** on a daily basis from old white dudes for policies that aren't even that extreme or that he has no control over, that when white dudes did it, no one even batted an eyelash.

So you're right. We haven't made up for that, we haven't moved as far ahead as we like to think we have, and until we do, we don't get the right to tell people what they can or can't be offended by.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

But this has nothing to do with racism. This has everything to do with a white individual (rightly or wrongly) not being 100% concerned with everyone who may have negative associations with whites attempting to imitate the skin color of groups 'they've' historically oppressed.

The strange thing about this scenario is people condemn her for doing this only because she's white and call her racist. Because everyone of a certain race carries all the historical events of their race with them for all eternity, and don't deserve to be judged on their personal merits but rather the associations of ideological categories like race, religion or gender. I could have sworn discriminating against someone based on their race was wrong, but apparently it's acceptable when that person is responsible by association for the crimes of their ancestors.

Black people tend to remain sensitive about the legacy of white supremacy and racism.

Have all the "get over it" people ever wondered the reason for this?

Maybe it's a survival instinct to prevent history from repeating itself.

Just look at the resurgence of white nationalism and racism in Europe. If you're not persistent things can roll backwards.

 

[Howlett]

White washing of PoC in movies is systemized. There is a lot of history to back this up. And it's a problem. No matter how "respectfully" you think you are playing a different race in a movie or tv show as a white person, why should someone choose a white person over someone who is -actually- that race? Because oppression and white privilege.

No matter how "respectful" it is, it's still racist.

So you've made up your mind. Every whitey is racist.

Most people are pretty rational, and have examples to back up why they are offended by something or why it can be deemed racist (as has been brought up in this discussion). Your argument is such a "slippery slope" logical fallacy. We are well aware that all situations can be looked at individually, and we also know when people are (generally) being rational and reasonable. I don't think anyone here has been irrational or unreasonable when it comes to the points they're making about how this can be construed as racist.

Yet you refuse to acknowledge that this might not be racist, and might really be a the art form that it is.

And again, it is not up for the privileged majority to tell a historically (and presently) oppressed minority what they should or shouldn't be offended by.

In my experience, being offended on a message board because a girl painted her face, over actual real life oppression that happens is beyond useless.

Also, in answer to your question, no. Because even if we are a minority to them, we have systematically oppressed and treated them like **** too. We as white people have invaded, raped, pillaged, appropriated, and stolen a lot of things from a lot of different cultures, and asserted our superiority in every instance we could, even if we are NOT the majority by numbers.

"Minority" in this instance can mean someone who as seen as "lesser", and even if they're a majority, trust me, white people see them as "lesser" people.

Way to generalize.

Oh, so it's not really about minorities, just (in Frankenstein voice)"WHITE PEOPLE BAAAAAAD!"

 

[DeadPresident]

Most people are pretty rational, and have examples to back up why they are offended by something or why it can be deemed racist (as has been brought up in this discussion). Your argument is such a "slippery slope" logical fallacy. We are well aware that all situations can be looked at individually, and we also know when people are (generally) being rational and reasonable. I don't think anyone here has been irrational or unreasonable when it comes to the points they're making about how this can be construed as racist.

And again, it is not up for the privileged majority to tell a historically (and presently) oppressed minority what they should or shouldn't be offended by.

Also, in answer to your question, no. Because even if we are a minority to them, we have systematically oppressed and treated them like **** too. We as white people have invaded, raped, pillaged, appropriated, and stolen a lot of things from a lot of different cultures, and asserted our superiority in every instance we could, even if we are NOT the majority by numbers.

"Minority" in this instance can mean someone who as seen as "lesser", and even if they're a majority, trust me, white people see them as "lesser" people.

Let me get this straight, I should be cognizant and respectful of other people's emotions and feelings not because I'm a good person or because I'm concerned and compassionate, but because I'm white and I have to pay a historical debt that I in no way, shape or form perpetuate or condone?

Jesus, that makes sense.

We as white people have invaded, raped, pillaged, appropriated, and stolen a lot of things from a lot of different cultures, and asserted our superiority in every instance we could, even if we are NOT the majority by numbers.

"We"...? "We''? Do you have any idea how absurd that sounds?

Just so I know when the timer starts ticking, for how long is it historically expedient to blame an entire race for the actions of an isolated contingent?

I'm not saying people shouldn't be aware of the historical trajectory of sensitive categories like race, but it seems maladaptive and unhealthy to the point of stupidity to keep guilt tripping people because "somewhere, some of your ancestors may have been racists". I was under the impression society doesn't expect you to atone for the sins of people you weren't related, nor whose behaviour you approve of?

 

[Shlee]

In my experience, being offended on a message board because a girl painted her face, over actual real life oppression that happens is beyond useless.

It's about defining boundaries. If no one calls people out on stuff like this, and makes them take a critical look at the situation (whether or not their opinion changes) then someone else is going to push that boundary.

"Well, this person did it, and they weren't racist, so I can do it this way and I'm still not racist, even if I'm doing a caricature or a trope."

No one's saying you can't have an opinion. I'm certainly not saying that.

But to not even concede that people have very legitimate reasons for being offended, even if you don't agree with them because of your own reasoning is kind of dickish.

The fact that you guys are this worked up and this defensive because some people find what this girl is doing racist really makes me wonder about you, I'm not going to lie.

 

[Shlee]

Let me get this straight, I should be cognizant and respectful of other people's emotions and feelings not because I'm a good person or because I'm concerned and compassionate, but because I'm white and I have to pay a historical debt that I in no way, shape or form perpetuate or condone?

Jesus, that makes sense.

I never said that. And I never said that individuals can't be different from the majority (or perceived majority) or that they can't stray from societal norms. All I'm saying is that we have a lot of societal norms that are pretty detrimental to minorities, even to this day, and whether we as individuals condone or perpetuate them or not doesn't mean they don't exist and that we shouldn't also work to end them.

"We"...? "We''? Do you have any idea how absurd that sounds?

Just so I know when the timer starts ticking, for how long is it historically expedient to blame an entire race for the actions of an isolated contingent?

I'm not saying people shouldn't be aware of the historical trajectory of sensitive categories like race, but it seems maladaptive and unhealthy to the point of stupidity to keep guilt tripping people because "somewhere, some of your ancestors may have been racists". I was under the impression society doesn't expect you to atone for the sins of people you weren't related, nor whose behaviour you approve of?

And yet when you find out someone's German, what's the first thing that comes to your mind?

 

[Howlett]

And yet I, as a white person, have offered my opinions and been quoted and agreed with by people of color (and even other white people) in this thread.

What people have a problem with is white people asserting their opinions over other people's opinions because they believe themselves to be right.

And the biggest issue is that we have systematically oppressed people of color all over the world, and even though we are trying to be better about it, we have such ingrained racism that we don't even necessarily know if we're being racist

You don't see how this is so completely condescending?

And it's not up for us to say whether or not we are. White people in this country get treated better than every other group out there, and white men get treated the best. There is an abnormal ratio of black to white prisoners, and you can't tell me that you don't see racial bias in police officers and other officials.

We have a black president, and he gets more **** on a daily basis from old white dudes for policies that aren't even that extreme or that he has no control over, that when white dudes did it, no one even batted an eyelash.

So you're right. We haven't made up for that, we haven't moved as far ahead as we like to think we have, and until we do, we don't get the right to tell people what they can or can't be offended by.

What would you like to happen?

You want to be offended by THIS? Then I will have a problem with you. It's ridiculous.

You want to be mad about black people being pulled over, not given a job, or even shot because of racism? I'm with you. This is not that. So just stop it. Did this girl's artistic interpretation of a character cause anyone to be pulled over, lose a job or any other significant oppression?

The answer is no, and you know it. This is not oppression, it's emulation and adoration from a fan. It blows my mind that anyone is angry that someone wants to portray themselves as a black character.

 

[DeadPresident]

Black people tend to remain sensitive about the legacy of white supremacy and racism.

Have all the "get over it" people ever wondered the reason for this?

Maybe it's a survival instinct to prevent history from repeating itself.

Just look at the resurgence of white nationalism and racism in Europe. If you're not persistent things can roll backwards.

And I agree with and understand that 100%, I honestly do. I'm a white South African, there is no country in the world that has had more discussions and struggles with emerging from an entrenched racist society as South Africa. Race is an important topic and one that should be discussed regularly so that it doesn't get swept under the carpet. I'm not trying to undermine anybody's emotional suffering or trying to tell anybody to "get over it" either.

However, what I find dangerous, and a little sad, is the fact that cases like this girl cosplaying a black character become a platform for people of a few races to stop a progressive discussion from taking place. This girl is branded a racist because she appears to be participating in something similar to racist actions popularized decades ago and that are not part the pop culture "consciousness". Whites who are attempting to give input or defend her are summarily rejected and excluded because "you're white, what would you know about prejudice or suffering?". Essentially completely removing somebody's personal history or individual experience and reducing their importance in the discussion to the color of their skin. There's something eerily Orwellian about that.

 

[Shikamaru]

So you're right. We haven't made up for that, we haven't moved as far ahead as we like to think we have, and until we do, we don't get the right to tell people what they can or can't be offended by.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but we get the right to say anything. People overall, regardless of race or gender, have the right to tell other people whatever the hell they want to tell, anything ranging from the most polite compliment to calling someone a total idiot. The obvious exception are threats, but as far as opinions go, anyone has the right to state their mind. You don't have to listen to what they have to say, nor do they have the right to enforce their stance on you, but they have the right to say it nevertheless.

 

[Travesty]

This is not oppression, it's emulation and adoration from a fan. It blows my mind that anyone is angry that someone wants to portray themselves as a black character.

However, what I find dangerous, and a little sad, is the fact that cases like this girl cosplaying a black character become a platform for people of a few races to stop a progressive discussion from taking place. This girl is branded a racist because she appears to be participating in something similar to racist actions popularized decades ago and that are not part the pop culture "consciousness". Whites who are attempting to give input or defend her are summarily rejected and excluded because "you're white, what would you know about prejudice or suffering?". Essentially completely removing somebody's personal history or individual experience and reducing their importance in the discussion to the color of their skin. There's something eerily Orwellian about that.

 

[DeadPresident]

I never said that. And I never said that individuals can't be different from the majority (or perceived majority) or that they can't stray from societal norms. All I'm saying is that we have a lot of societal norms that are pretty detrimental to minorities, even to this day, and whether we as individuals condone or perpetuate them or not doesn't mean they don't exist and that we shouldn't also work to end them.

No, no, no. You're saying "we" have white societal norms that are detrimental to minorities. What you're also saying, and where this gets inescapably contradictory is that "who are 'we' to tell minorities what to get offended by" when you're prescribing to every white American what they are or are not allowed to comment on because magically an entire race has shared responsibility for the actions of somebody representing that race.

And yet when you find out someone's German, what's the first thing that comes to your mind?

Jesus Christ...Projection much? I've met plenty of Germans, and because I'm not a lazy ***hole I don't stereotype them and sit back wondering if he's going to start goose-stepping and trying to gas me. This says a lot about you, is the first thing you think of when you meet a German "Oh God, dude's probably going to start carving swastikas into my furniture..."?

Miraculously, when I meet a German in 2014 I don't assume he's a Nazi from 1939. I also don't meet a black guy and assume he's a thief. I don't meet an Asian and wonder if they're smart and bad drivers. I don't meet a Muslim and assume he's a jihadist. What I do do though, and what I would implore other people to do is treat whoever you come into contact with on a case by case basis.

How ****ing ridiculous would it be if everyone was held responsible for the historical crimes of their ancestors? Come on man, I advocate historical sensitivity and thinking things through, but trying to claim "WE as whites? What gives you the right to stipulate what people should or shouldn't feel responsible for?

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Er, Carradine is cited negatively in articles on "yellowface." From TV Tropes:
•Kung Fu: In this television series, David Carradine was Kwai Chang Caine and the character was made half-white. While the character of Caine was a sympathetic one, Carradine's casting gained notoriety because they passed over Bruce Lee, who had aided in creating the show with the sole purpose of starring in it.
•Carradine plays a comically yellowfaced Poon Dong in Crank High Voltage. The character seems to be intentionally offensive. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Yellowface

Sad that Bruce Lee was passed over for the role.

But all the rest really tells me is that what's happening in this thread has happened for decades.

Since this is beside the point, I'll bring in an anecdote. I, for one, thought Caine was awesome when I was a kid. He was a heroic figure to admire and emulate (within reason; my martial arts were wanting). I haven't watched Kung Fu in a long time, but maybe if I went back, I'd find his portrayal "comically yellowfaced" and "intentionally offensive".

Also, I don't think it's so much that the Germans don't know that dressing up in blackface is offensive, it's just there's not enough of a backlash in their culture to care. I remember during the summer there were tons of articles about all those Germans showing up at the World Cup in blackface until finally FIFA had to ban blackface. Smh.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...al-discrimination-world-cup-article-1.1840919

Well, we have thousands of people to make sure the girl feels really bad about herself for painting her face... for the sake of looking like the character she loves.

 

[Shlee]

You want to be mad about black people being pulled over, not given a job, or even shot because of racism? I'm with you.

And I am mad about those things, and I do keep up on issues like that. But this thread is not about those things either. Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive. Why can't I be more angry about the things that you mentioned, but still frustrated or upset about this? Why does all of my anger or frustration have to be in the direction of the big issues without being able to be frustrated by smaller issues? Because you say so? Because you think it's a ridiculous thing for people to be upset about? It's not up for you to judge what anyone should or shouldn't be passionate about, or what subject is too small or too large for them to care about. It's up to them. You know next to nothing about me, you have no idea what kinds of discussions I have or activism I do or anything.

All you have seen from me is response to an on-topic thread that is about a very narrow, one subject issue. I am allowed to be upset and angry about this if I want to be, I am allowed to be objective or subjective if I want to be, I am allowed to side with whomever I want, and to exercise my right to an opinion.

While I agree that cosplay is an art, and that human skin can be a canvas, there is a difference between painting on a human canvas, and creating a work of art, and painting yourself to have a different skin color. Surely you can see that.

I have tattoos. I consider them art. They are art on the canvas that is my body and my skin. But they are decorative, and they are well thought out. I don't care how "avant-garde" you think a piece is, painting an entire canvas with one color is not an art piece.

And painting a canvas with the intent to imitate another canvas is called plagiarism and art theft, and it's wrong. So if you're going to keep using the art metaphor, then that's my argument against that.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

However, what I find dangerous, and a little sad, is the fact that cases like this girl cosplaying a black character become a platform for people of a few races to stop a progressive discussion from taking place. This girl is branded a racist because she appears to be participating in something similar to racist actions popularized decades ago and that are not part the pop culture "consciousness". Whites who are attempting to give input or defend her are summarily rejected and excluded because "you're white, what would you know about prejudice or suffering?". Essentially completely removing somebody's personal history or individual experience and reducing their importance in the discussion to the color of their skin. There's something eerily Orwellian about that.

I think there are dismissive people on both sides.