Crazy Theory: Robin is Joker

Discussion in 'Suicide Squad' started by Rodrigo90, Jul 21, 2015.

?

Robin is Joker?!!!

  1. Dear God, I hope it's true!

  2. Dear God, I hope it's not true!

  3. I'm not for or against it

  4. Rodrigo, I hate you for making this poll and for how annoying you can be!

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  1. Mechanix Registered

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    Actually, he didn't. In DOFP, he said JFK was a mutant and he was trying to save him.

    :ninja:

    Back to the theory, no. Just, no. It would completely undermine the Joker for him to actually turn out to be Robin. It's too crazy.
     
  2. Rodrigo90 Wink wink ;)

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    I've only seen DOFP the once, so I missed that :p

    Yeah, I know people want the REAL Joker, and so do I. But if at some point, Leto turned round to Affleck and said -
    "No...I am your Robin..."
    I would get pretty pumped :hehe:
     
  3. Batgort Registered

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    So here's the reasons why I think Joker is Dick Grayson (or maybe Dick Gordon / Gordon Jr).

    The theory is: Robin snaps mid-career w/ Batman, but instead of losing it and going to be Nightwing, he turns into The Joker. Not a tortured robin by original Joker (like Batman Beyond Return of the Joker), and not Red Hood. Just a straight up -- Batman creates the Joker himself, when a mission pushes Dick too far, he goes crazy, writes Ha Ha Ha on both his old suit, and himself, and tattoos damaged on his forehead. The go-crazy moment is probably death of Jim Gordon (perhaps his father in this universe) or Barbara Gordon (heavily implied Dick and Barbara were together in previous incarnations). Either way, it's this big event that forces Batman's retirement after committing Robin as the Joker personality. "How many good guys are left?" (None, Gordon is dead, Robin went crazy and got put in Arkham where his joker personality came to the surface). Explains both lines in the trailer, the writing on the suit/Joker's body, the note Bruce gets about the building, etc.

    Here's a bunch of rationale on why this could work:

    1. Snyder/Ayers are working with the ole Timm/Dini crew, most noteably Timm himself on the Superman 75 short, and Jay Olivia did the choreography of Zod vs Superman in MoS. This is important because it's a lot of time to have the Timm crew feeding the creative process, even if informally. See more on Jay's website here: http://www.cinematicstoryboard.com/

    2. Going back to any Timm/Dini/etc and Snyder himself (post-Watchmen), they don't want to retell the same story. So Dick Grayson and Circus's are probably out. We just saw Red Hood in DCAU.

    3. Timm-crew's favorite episodes include the one where Barbara dreams that she's dead, Gordon loses it and goes after Batman. Also the one in BTAS where Dick loses it and goes Nightwing. They like telling these untold stories so much - even Timm winds up doing an elsewords Gods/Monsters.

    4. The last Joker origin we saw on screen was in Flashpoint Paradox, where Martha Wayne loses it and goes Joker. Who did Flashpoint? Jay Olivia immediately after MoS.

    5. Nobody has explored Robin (as Dick Grayson, Dick Gordon, or anyone else) lose it and go the other way (instead of turning into nightwing, they turn into someone else). This is important because it's an untold story, so all Timm-verse people and Warners will love it.

    6. In The Dark Knight Returns, Gordon is on his way out -- he could practically be written out of the story. I suspect this includes the "how many good guys are left" in the BvS trailer - implies that Gordon is no longer there.

    7. When Robin snaps to go Nightwing, he goes the other way -- kinda like in Flashpoint, things just happened slightly differently. This happens-slightly-different is The Best Storytelling in the minds of the Timm-crew (see previous BTAS episodes, Flashpoint, etc).

    8. Of course the HaHa's on both the suit and on the joker's body look the same -- but having real joker do that to new joker/the suit doesn't make sense. It's not as a compelling of a story as Robin goes crazy and is the first and only Joker. That's a story that can be fleshed out (going mad), how Batman fosters the creation of crazy in the town. Plus if Joker is just someone else not related to Batman, we saw that story in TDK. Nobody wants to just rehash it here.

    9. Having Robin be the one and only Joker will make break new ground in the DC universe, and have compelling storytelling aspects (Batman doesn't want to hurt him, Joker knows who he is). Even Batman will want to save Harley as the one person that got through to Robin while he was in Arkham.

    10. Nobody likes Robin on the big screen, not since the 90s. Nolan, executive producer on MoS, especially doesn't like him. Even Dick Grayson feels largely out of place in the comics, becoming more of a regular guy/secret agent rather than Nightwing/Batman-lite. If you look at Robin/Nightwing in recent DCU (Red Hood), he's almost irrelevant to the core plot lines. He's just there for the audience to relate to a little bit, and to do a little groundwork for Batman. Otherwise, red hood doesn't freak out on Nightwing, Batman doesn't talk to Nightwing about Red Hood/Joker/Jason/etc.

    11. Dick as Joker makes for a much better arch villian, like they are near equals in skills, detective/criminal sklils, etc.

    12. The Joker isn't as great as just a random psycho. Look at TDK, we saw that - it was nice, they're not going to use the same thing again. In the comics, it's implied joker is a vandal savage immortal (ie why he never dies in any of his schemes, and why Batman can never really kill him if he wanted). We're not going to get that. So how do we realistically keep these two fighting long term in a movie environment? There is only one way -- make Batman really care for the Joker.

    13. Robin doesn't work on the big screen because you have to tell a second origin story, where you are even more divorced that the first. Dick's parents? Nobody cares, you see them 5 minutes. Are we to believe a billionaire goes to a circus? Nope. Does Batman hand the mantle of the bat to a random cop named robin like in TDKR - Nope. Seeing a kid in a PG-13 world w/ criminals like these? Doesn't work well on TV. Want to remind people about Adam West and Val Kilmer? Nope. Ironically, in the cartoon The Batman they start with Batgirl first as daughter of Jim Gordon, who happens upon their relationship and starts helping Batman. We see The Batman mask on a guy with a gun in the SS trailer. That storyline from The Batman might work on the big screen, but it works even better if Gordon dies at some point - otherwise, like the cartoon, it's campy and kid-like. Nobody will believe it.

    Side kicks on the big screen are hard. We get 2 movies a year, they're not going to spend that precious time telling the general public about how there are like 3 Robins, or sending Bruce to the Circus, or killing some poor kids parents at the Circus and hoping we feel for the character in 20 minutes of screen time.

    This all does not make sense.

    Having Dick be related to Gordon, have Batman/Gordon thing, Dick helps out - even gets a suit, but then that turned out to be a horrible idea, Gordon dies, Dick goes crazy. Now Batman is stuck in a world where his arch enemy was his own creation.
     
  4. Greens I am Danny DeVito

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    You keep making these points about Robin on the big screen but... Robin is dead. He won't BE on the big screen, unless the next Batman movie takes place over 15 years ago.
     
  5. Batgort Registered

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    oh I will add,

    A. In The Dark Knight Returns, there is a big theme that Batman's antics create The Joker.

    B. Having Batman take Dick to the asylum to 'get better' or 'get the help he needs' is a much better plot device than "all bad guys goto the asylum because reaosns'

    C. If you buy B, then it makes even more sense to have Harley fall for Dick and she just gets consumed by his madness. In some sense, it'd be more powerful than Joker = so Super Crazy, a psychologist can go crazy just by talking to him. Rather, Dick is so compelling as a character/human, that instead of getting treatment, he convinces Harley how messed up things are and they fall in love/go crazy together.

    Enjoy!
     
  6. Batgort Registered

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    Well by bringing out the suit, they've already forced the issue of dedicating time to Robin
     
  7. Greens I am Danny DeVito

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    I don't know, some of your points are just weird.

    That's the character, though. He's not one of Batman's family members/close friends. Going by your logic, the next Mr. Freeze should be Alfred because they already did a Mr. Freeze who wasn't related to Batman in the 90s.
     
  8. I Am The Knight Voil√°!

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    Joker is also not the Waynes' killer but some people love that. And some people are really eager to have Robin be the Joker for some reason :funny:
     
  9. Dark Raven It's not about what you deserve...

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    What if Commissioner Gordon is the Joker?
     
  10. Batgort Registered

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    TDK Joker had no backstory, he was just a random person. Best explanation we got was Gordon's "escalation" line at the very end of BB and the "agent of chaos" and "people of gotham will tear eachother apart" line. Beyond that, TDK Joker = random violence, we never know who he is, what he wants.

    Point is, characters need motivation/arc. If Mr Freeze just showed up and robbed banks like in Batman '66, then yes - that is bad. Timmverse scientist-with-loss is better and has motivation to it.

    Clearly Batman/Robin and Joker had a relationship (suit + haha markings), i hope that we get an explanation and Robin suit is not a prop, and Joker isn't just a psycho killer who just goes around being violent for violence sake.
     
  11. Greens I am Danny DeVito

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    Yeah, Batman and Joker do have a relationship but it's a natural one. They met and had multiple encounters. That's how relationships work :funny: Joker and Batman had a relationship in TDK, too. It's just that this time we're starting our story right in the middle (or at the end?) of the relationship.

    I just find it odd that 75 years into the history of this character, he now needs to be ROBIN for his motivation to work.
     
  12. Snow Queen Maybe Someday (she/her)

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    Well, they always could...
    [​IMG]
     
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    With the way some people have been talking about Robin, you'd think he's had a solo announced or something.
     
  14. The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    :up:

    Point number 11, Joker shouldn't be Batman's equal in fighting skills, detective skills and all that stuff. He's not that kind of challenge. The Red Hood aka Jason Todd is a better opponent in that regard.
     
  15. Bane Cook Registered

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    Nice. I love this and I want to see it.

    CAUTION SPOILERS FROM ARKHAM KNIGHT BUT ITS ESSENTIAL FOR THIS POST
    Also in Arkham Knight Jason Todd has a J on his face.

    [​IMG]
    Who else has a J on his face in the exact same spot?



    [​IMG]




    Who has a Robin tattoo on their right arm?




    [​IMG]





    Plus we know Jared Leto has been pumping iron for this role. Why would the Joker need to be muscular? Hmmm.
     
    #65 Bane Cook, Jul 27, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2015
  16. Snow Queen Maybe Someday (she/her)

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    It's going to be fun watching this not happen. :o
     
  17. Gee Rebirth

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    @Bane Cook: You should put that in spoiler tags. Not everyone has played Arkham Knight...
     
  18. Bane Cook Registered

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    Alright done
     
  19. Greens I am Danny DeVito

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    I don't know why people think Arkham Knight (a videogame that came out when production on Suicide Squad was well underway) has so much bearing on this movie. Plus, [blackout]Jason Todd[/blackout] was BRANDED with the J, not the same thing as getting a tattoo.
     
  20. Bane Cook Registered

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    Well a brand and a tattoo basically serve the same function. The tattoos could have been forced on him by the real Joker after he saw his work was done in making Robin insane. This would be just like how in The Dark Knight the Joker brought Harvey Dent down. And it all could be done to prove a point to Batman that he is not making the world a better place but he is in fact creating his own demons/everyone is corruptible ect.

    And it's just like the Joker to write all that on Robin after his work is done. Just like on Robin's suit the Joker wrote "HaHAhA Jokes on you Batman," him tattooing Robin would be the exact same thing. All the hahahas on Leto Joker seem more like they are mocking someone. The Robin tattoo on his arm? The damaged tattoo on his forehead? I think these were all meant for Batman to see.
     
    #70 Bane Cook, Jul 28, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2015
  21. Batgort Registered

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    Stronger if he's saying it to spite Batman, like "Jokes on you batman, Robin is dead, i am now The Joker." Think back to BTAS where Dick throws off his Robin mask and stomps out to become Nightwing -- same thing, but instead he throws it off, and writes ha ha ha on it, and then stomps out.

    The reason having unseen original joker make a Leto-Joker-Robin doesn't work is that audiences won't buy it. They hype the hell out of Leto-Joker, only to reveal he's not the real one -- people will feel cheated. The other big reason is Harley wouldn't fall for 2nd Joker, only original Joker. So if the Robin theory has water, Joker must be the original. There is something elegant by having Dick-going-crazy committed by Batman to Arkham, and Dick as as a loveable character has a fall-from-grace moment, but he's so cunning that his madness infects Harley. This feels like a compelling movie storyline.

    They try to rationalize how Harley goes insane/falls in love with the Joker in the comics by claiming she has a tortured past, or love of horrific things and becoming a psychiatrist gives her fix. In a movie context, yet-another-backstory to show a doctor going crazy is a lot of screen time. The "loves horrific" character arc would also be a lot, and risk making the character unlikeable -- think watching Dexter, you need his childhood + Harry setup or the Dexter character would just creep everyone out.

    The red hood angle also doesn't work so great - it was only one of Joker's potential origins, and you wind up introducing pre-Joker redhood, real joker, robin, kill a robin, resurrect a robin, and then red hood 2 (or joker 2 before after red hood 2?). That's WAY more plot away from Batman to handle in any film where Robin isn't like a huge character and/or main character.

    The biggest non-Robin-Joker argument i would think is DC wouldn't want to do that to the character of Dick Grayson. Kinda like they never want to show superman bleed or kill certain characters. This, I think, is solved by making the first Robin as Jim Gordon Jr (or some combo derivative like Dick Gordon). There is some notion of this in the cartoon, The Batman, where the first side kick is Batgirl (Barbara Gordon). It would also tighten up the story, you can kill two birds with one stone (no pun intended, haha), if Gordon dies - his son who is running around as Robin can't save him and goes insane. You hit all the buttons (Gordon on his way out ala The Dark Knight Returns, we get a short lived Robin and no campy sidekick BS, and we get a highly compelling backstory to the Joker).
     
  22. shauner111 Registered

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    Such a bad theory. I, in no way hold Rodrigo responsible!
     
  23. Rodrigo90 Wink wink ;)

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    Thanks, Shauner. Unlike the 14 haters, you still remain on Xmas card list!!!
     
  24. Bane Cook Registered

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    I think this is a good thread to make because I think it's spot on.

    [​IMG]


    There's absolutely no reason for Joker to be this buff. This is a post death Robin if I've ever seen one. At this point I'm willing to put money on it.
     
  25. Rodrigo90 Wink wink ;)

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    Haha! Good point! :D
     

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