The Dark Knight Rises Cultural Subtext

[DACrowe]

I just recently watched some of the (many) viral videos on Youtube from the filming in NYC on Wall Street. And yes they were quite epic, it will be amazing, and blah blah blah. But the images were startling and shocking due to their "epic" scope of citizens and police throwing down in a huge riot. It's a great setting but it got me thinking, whether the Nolan brothers are going to have something to say about the last three years or so.

I say this because very few would deny that The Dark Knight was a truly post-9/11 film that touched on the broader ideas from the "War on Terror." I'm not saying it was a particularly political film, albeit the Wall Street Journal's desperate editorial board pretended it was, but it was dealing with the ideas of how far a state/government/police/Batman will go to stop a terrorist. It raises ethical questions about torture, wiretapping and political cover-ups. The Joker's videos released on the news are meant to mirror those of terrorist murders/executions on the Internet, Batman uses violent and dangerous techniques to get information....but still can come up short and ideologically muddled despite all his "power." And then there's Batman standing in the rubble of where Rachel died evokes the most horrific of attacks, etc. It is dealing with what is just action by authority to maintain order and when is it too much.

So, cut to three years later and the world has changed again. The global economy went to the brink just months after TDK's release and may be there again soon. But also, culturally, there has been a backlash on both sides of the political spectrum against order, government and in some cases, the whole societal system. Could TDKR be exploring what that does to a community, society and could it be exploring the grey areas of civil unrest? Bane is recruiting citizens to overthrow Gotham's order with the phrase, "Take Control" while destroying images of Harvey Dent. Not long after TDK wrapped, protestors upset over the election or economy were gathering to "Take our Country back" while, ironically, depicting the POTUS as the Joker (or Hitler). Not to say that this movie will pick on the Tea Party, as many in the Youtube comment section will be quick to point out from the NYC images that, "OWS is getting ugly this week." And it is of course reminiscent of the G20 protests that descend into anarchy in many cases.

In short, I believe if TDK was, in part, a rumination on American society post-9/11, TDKR is going to touch on the growing social unrest all around the country and the increasingly hostile, anti-government, anti-order (which in Gotham city would be very much anti-Batman/Police) discontent. And that could be very interesting.

 

[jmc]

If Rises does turn out to be as you say then it would either be a deliberate piece of social commentary similar to the TDK or a fortunate coincidence.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I think it is mostly coincidence as OWS and the London riots occurred after TDKR had been scripted and had begun filming. I don't think Nolan is the sort to shove political themes down people's throats. That said, the film may have something relevant to say to the current cultural mess, even if merely by coincidence.

 

[the amazing fro]

That would be great if it did and would add an interesting layer and interpretation of the film no matter if it is a massive coicidence (which it probably is).

 

[DACrowe]

I think it is mostly coincidence as OWS and the London riots occurred after TDKR had been scripted and had begun filming. I don't think Nolan is the sort to shove political themes down people's throats. That said, the film may have something relevant to say to the current cultural mess, even if merely by coincidence.

I don't think he'd politically praise or condemn anyone. But more talk about the cultural or social aspects of it? The OWS stuff is more recent than the writing...but the Tea Party isn't. "Take Control" with ripped pictures of Harvey Dent or "Take Our Country Back" with defaced pictures of Barack Obama?

OWS is just another reaction to the harsh economic times of the last 4-5 years (30 if you go all the way back to Reaganomics with the "Top 1 Percent" stuff). And I've heard Bane's plans involve socio-economic unrest.

I think it will have something, in a more philosophical and abstract way, to say about today.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I don't think he'd politically praise or condemn anyone. But more talk about the cultural or social aspects of it? The OWS stuff is more recent than the writing...but the Tea Party isn't.

All the Tea Party protests have been non-violent though, and well organized. Whereas OWS, whether you agree with their mission or not, has been very unorganized and occasionally violent. Tea Party protests are no different from any ordinary protest / demonstration, whereas OWS is a bit more chaotic. If we were to put things on a scale from 1 being the least like TDKR and 10 being the most like it, the Tea Party would be 1 or 2, OWS might be 4 or 5, and the London riots would be 8 or so.

I doubt that TDKR is inspired by the Tea Party, or by OWS and the London riots. Any similarity is coincidental. These themes have been around since the dawn of time. After all, the rumor is that the story is partially based on Dicken's Tale of Two Cities, right?

 

[ThePhantasm]

Also, Reaganomics isn't about the top 1%. That's a straw man / stereotype. I'm all for disagreeing with conservatives but lets not misconstrue what they say.

 

[the amazing fro]

After all, the rumor is that the story is partially based on Dicken's Tale of Two Cities, right?

hmm I haven't heard this. Where did this come from? That would be very intriguing if true.

 

[ThePhantasm]

hmm I haven't heard this. Where did this come from? That would be very intriguing if true.

I don't remember where the rumor originated but I've seen it mentioned quite a few times on the boards. Maybe someone else remembers...

 

[batbax]

The fire rises is actually a chapter in "A tale of two cities"..And from what little info we think we know a bout the plot..well I think it could definitely be an inspiration for this story.

 

[MaceB]

These themes have been around since the dawn of time. After all, the rumor is that the story is partially based on Dicken's Tale of Two Cities, right?

There are many many many themes that have been around since the dawn of time though. Nolan has a huge pool to draw from. The question is whether or not Nolan will deliberately choose to dwell on themes about class and societal uprising. And if that's the case, then what purpose would it serve?

Saying that TDK's political commentary is a coincidence is a huge disservice in my mind. Nolan deliberately chose to utilize Post 9/11 imagery in TDK; he didn't have to, nothing forced him.

It makes sense for a storyteller to dwell on contemporary images, thoughts, and ideas. And the world is definitely in a moment of social unrest, high inequality, class uprising, etc. ... that's what people have talking about, even before the OWS manifested.

I'm really looking forward to TDKR's take on it. I don't feel like TDK was really heavy handed... it didn't try to sell us on a particular action. I hope TDKR is the same way. I hope TDKR reflects the issues without choosing sides.

 

[DaveMoral]

All the Tea Party protests have been non-violent though, and well organized. Whereas OWS, whether you agree with their mission or not, has been very unorganized and occasionally violent. Tea Party protests are no different from any ordinary protest / demonstration, whereas OWS is a bit more chaotic. If we were to put things on a scale from 1 being the least like TDKR and 10 being the most like it, the Tea Party would be 1 or 2, OWS might be 4 or 5, and the London riots would be 8 or so.

I doubt that TDKR is inspired by the Tea Party, or by OWS and the London riots. Any similarity is coincidental. These themes have been around since the dawn of time. After all, the rumor is that the story is partially based on Dicken's Tale of Two Cities, right?

Most of the violence associated with OWS and similar protests has been perpetuated or instigated by the police. Contrast that with Tea Party, where they openly carries firearms at many rallies and have threatened people and used the language of violence.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Most of the violence associated with OWS and similar protests has been perpetuated or instigated by the police. Contrast that with Tea Party, where they openly carries firearms at many rallies and have threatened people and used the language of violence.

Really? So the instances of sexual assault, rape, and theft were instigated by the police? I'm not talking about the most recent stuff where the police have been driving them out of the park. I don't see statistically how you can blame "most" of it on the police.

I don't want to get into some American political discussion here. All I'm saying is that I don't think Nolan's story is based on or inspired by the Tea Party, OWS, or the London riots in any way, for what I think are obvious reasons. It kinda irks me that people are bound to think the film is some commentary on these riots when they aren't, just like people thought Batman's sonar was some sort of endorsement of the Patriot Act. Mark my words there will be people offended by perceived connections between the film and reality which are only circumstantial and coincidental. It is like J.R.R. Tolkien said - the Lord of the Rings was written during WWII, but isn't an allegory of WWII. It was just meant to be a good story.

 

[The Morningstar]

I think it is mostly coincidence as OWS and the London riots occurred after TDKR had been scripted and had begun filming. I don't think Nolan is the sort to shove political themes down people's throats. That said, the film may have something relevant to say to the current cultural mess, even if merely by coincidence.

You're having a laugh ain't ya?

TDK's themes, political and otherwise, were about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the knee caps.

 

[ThePhantasm]

TDK's themes, political and otherwise, were about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the knee caps.

Well, that's not exactly what I meant. I recall Nolan saying the movie wasn't meant to be a commentary on anything in politics, because some people were thinking when the film came out that it was very pro-Bush (I remember all the "Bush is Batman" articles and blogs). What I meant is Nolan doesn't seem interested in swaying the audience one way or another in terms of politics and whatnot - he seems interested in telling a good story. Much of TDKR's "connection" to modern events will be coincidental, but I guarantee reviewers and moviegoers won't see that, and will think Nolan is bashing them over the head with some viewpoint.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

I love the way the thread starts off. It's a very good way to see TDK (and speculate on TDKR). But what I think rings true of it is that those aspects of the story are there for us to interpret. One of the biggest things I learned from responses to TDK is how an author's intention really has nothing to do with the audience's understanding of a work of art. It's there to be interpreted as a social commentary, or not be. Even if Nolan is making a commentary deliberately it shouldn't rob us of enjoying the film as it stands outside of that context (and really, inside the context of the story itself).

As for the way I see TDK, if it does have a political theme it borders a lot on the ideologies of anarchy, democracy and utilitarianism. Our leaders are heroes, like Harvey Dent, but Batman is a superhero, he has to stand above that role, and it destroys Bruce Wayne, the human side of him, as it is. Too Machiavellian? Perhaps. But then again, that's also how Batman is in the source material.

But upon looking at the entire trilogy you just can't help but think of it in terms of a classical hero's progress: the birth, fall, and redemption cycle. Alternatively, Batman breaking the status quo in BB, becoming the status quo in TDK, and facing the revolution come TDKR. That's also the plight of all heroes and kings, but since we know that he isn't that, that he is in fact something more pure, we know that Bruce/Batman's challenge is to escape that cycle and stop Bane.

The point I'm trying to make is this: the political/cultural subtext is there, but so is the archetypal subtext, and that only encourages me to look at it as a commentary on the evolution of culture as a whole. And if that is indeed how it's moving, then those points made by DACrowe makes absolute sense.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

I'd love to see Bruce Wayne facing the same economic challenges his father is said to have faced in Batman Begins.

 

[jmc]

Something this thread has got me wondering is whether out perception on TDK has been incorrect. Was it Nolan's attempt at social commentary? I use to think it was but this thread has got me wondering if we were just seeing allegory simply because of where the world was at the time, did we just amplify the subtext of the movie? Would TDK have the same impact if it were released in 2012? The threat of terrorism has subsided (perceived threat anyway), especially with bin Laden dead, plus the overthrowing of dictatorships in the Mid-East, the world feels a wee bit safer than it did 5 years ago, something tells me TDK wouldn't have been the billion dollar movie it turned out to be. I'm starting to think it was a case of right place, right time and more importantly the right political environment and that's why it resonated with people so much. Rises could be another case, we may end up applying allegory where there is no attempt by the director to do so. This is why I love Nolan's Batman series because 3 years after I first saw it some new debate comes up that makes me look at the movie from a new perspective, and you don't get that with other superhero films.

 

[the amazing fro]

I love the way the thread starts off. It's a very good way to see TDK (and speculate on TDKR). But what I think rings true of it is that those aspects of the story are there for us to interpret. One of the biggest things I learned from responses to TDK is how an author's intention really has nothing to do with the audience's understanding of a work of art. It's there to be interpreted as a social commentary, or not be. Even if Nolan is making a commentary deliberately it shouldn't rob us of enjoying the film as it stands outside of that context (and really, inside the context of the story itself).

As for the way I see TDK, if it does have a political theme it borders a lot on the ideologies of anarchy, democracy and utilitarianism. Our leaders are heroes, like Harvey Dent, but Batman is a superhero, he has to stand above that role, and it destroys Bruce Wayne, the human side of him, as it is. Too Machiavellian? Perhaps. But then again, that's also how Batman is in the source material.

But upon looking at the entire trilogy you just can't help but think of it in terms of a classical hero's progress: the birth, fall, and redemption cycle. Alternatively, Batman breaking the status quo in BB, becoming the status quo in TDK, and facing the revolution come TDKR. That's also the plight of all heroes and kings, but since we know that he isn't that, that he is in fact something more pure, we know that Bruce/Batman's challenge is to escape that cycle and stop Bane.

The point I'm trying to make is this: the political/cultural subtext is there, but so is the archetypal subtext, and that only encourages me to look at it as a commentary on the evolution of culture as a whole. And if that is indeed how it's moving, then those points made by DACrowe makes absolute sense.

I agree with everything you said. Once a piece of Art is released to the wider world, the artists original intention is second to the audience's interpretation. Nolan may have not intended to put it there but the War on Terror subtext is not only present but is rather apparent. I think it's great that a superhero movie can have so much depth and so many possible layers of interpretation. The fact that there is a debate about it pretty much proves it.

 

[DACrowe]

All the Tea Party protests have been non-violent though, and well organized. Whereas OWS, whether you agree with their mission or not, has been very unorganized and occasionally violent. Tea Party protests are no different from any ordinary protest / demonstration, whereas OWS is a bit more chaotic. If we were to put things on a scale from 1 being the least like TDKR and 10 being the most like it, the Tea Party would be 1 or 2, OWS might be 4 or 5, and the London riots would be 8 or so.

I doubt that TDKR is inspired by the Tea Party, or by OWS and the London riots. Any similarity is coincidental. These themes have been around since the dawn of time. After all, the rumor is that the story is partially based on Dicken's Tale of Two Cities, right?

I'm not trying to get political, but the Tea Party movement while better organized, is a strongly anti-government movement and against that form of control with the "Take Our Country Back" in their rhetoric and vilifying imagery of Barack Obama. Bane is proposing--a much more radical--form of anti-government and anti-order with "Take Control" while defaming images of Harvey Dent. And in the land of Gotham City, order is Batman.

We won't know until it's released but it's possible.

And Tale of Two Cities? That was about two societies, one at the brink of collapse due to inequality and economic angst....while we're not on the verge of a revolution, there are similar feelings of disenchantment in this country, "We are the 99 percent" and what not. I'm not saying the movie is going to be anti-protest or organization, but I expect it to be allegorical on the feeling of social unrest in the country at the moment.

Also, Reaganomics isn't about the top 1%. That's a straw man / stereotype. I'm all for disagreeing with conservatives but lets not misconstrue what they say.

If we want to discuss that, let's take it ot the Politics thread. Suffice it to say, if one looks at how the dispersion of wealth has shifted in the last 30 years...eh let's keep it on the movie. There is a politics thread if we want to continue this.

 

[BDouglas]

I just recently watched some of the (many) viral videos on Youtube from the filming in NYC on Wall Street. And yes they were quite epic, it will be amazing, and blah blah blah. But the images were startling and shocking due to their "epic" scope of citizens and police throwing down in a huge riot. It's a great setting but it got me thinking, whether the Nolan brothers are going to have something to say about the last three years or so.

I say this because very few would deny that The Dark Knight was a truly post-9/11 film that touched on the broader ideas from the "War on Terror." I'm not saying it was a particularly political film, albeit the Wall Street Journal's desperate editorial board pretended it was, but it was dealing with the ideas of how far a state/government/police/Batman will go to stop a terrorist. It raises ethical questions about torture, wiretapping and political cover-ups. The Joker's videos released on the news are meant to mirror those of terrorist murders/executions on the Internet, Batman uses violent and dangerous techniques to get information....but still can come up short and ideologically muddled despite all his "power." And then there's Batman standing in the rubble of where Rachel died evokes the most horrific of attacks, etc. It is dealing with what is just action by authority to maintain order and when is it too much.

So, cut to three years later and the world has changed again. The global economy went to the brink just months after TDK's release and may be there again soon. But also, culturally, there has been a backlash on both sides of the political spectrum against order, government and in some cases, the whole societal system. Could TDKR be exploring what that does to a community, society and could it be exploring the grey areas of civil unrest? Bane is recruiting citizens to overthrow Gotham's order with the phrase, "Take Control" while destroying images of Harvey Dent. Not long after TDK wrapped, protestors upset over the election or economy were gathering to "Take our Country back" while, ironically, depicting the POTUS as the Joker (or Hitler). Not to say that this movie will pick on the Tea Party, as many in the Youtube comment section will be quick to point out from the NYC images that, "OWS is getting ugly this week." And it is of course reminiscent of the G20 protests that descend into anarchy in many cases.

In short, I believe if TDK was, in part, a rumination on American society post-9/11, TDKR is going to touch on the growing social unrest all around the country and the increasingly hostile, anti-government, anti-order (which in Gotham city would be very much anti-Batman/Police) discontent. And that could be very interesting.

Brillaint Post.

And I totally believe it was factored into the plot, much the way TDK is a "zeitgeist" caliber film that makes strong impactful statements and allegories to the post 9/11 War on Terror.

The imagery is evocative of it ... even in the movie posters. It works on subtle levels.

And given TDKR is clearly taking into play economic fallout (Gotham being shut down or shut out from the rest of America, Bruce's car / home being reposessed) ... all very relatable material to Americans right now.

This is actually what is making me pumped for the film. That's it's actually about something. TDK had it, with it's 9/11 themes, now we can cathartically deal with real world issues hitting now through the imagination and entertainment of Batman.

I was worried this film was being made just to be made and would have no intelligent subtext the way TDK so brillaintly had. Whether it was intended or not, or it perfectly reflected our collective concious at that time, either way it's a brillaint movie, with layers of intelligence.

Same way the great comic books do ... make social statements, tap into fears, give cathartic release through a guise of entertainment.

Any GREAT hero is of his time, and represents or reflects the modern world and it's struggles. Christopher Nolan's Batman stories do that VERY well.

 

[floreairfoot]

Something this thread has got me wondering is whether out perception on TDK has been incorrect. Was it Nolan's attempt at social commentary? I use to think it was but this thread has got me wondering if we were just seeing allegory simply because of where the world was at the time, did we just amplify the subtext of the movie? Would TDK have the same impact if it were released in 2012? The threat of terrorism has subsided (perceived threat anyway), especially with bin Laden dead, plus the overthrowing of dictatorships in the Mid-East, the world feels a wee bit safer than it did 5 years ago, something tells me TDK wouldn't have been the billion dollar movie it turned out to be. I'm starting to think it was a case of right place, right time and more importantly the right political environment and that's why it resonated with people so much. Rises could be another case, we may end up applying allegory where there is no attempt by the director to do so. This is why I love Nolan's Batman series because 3 years after I first saw it some new debate comes up that makes me look at the movie from a new perspective, and you don't get that with other superhero films.

Yes, and yes - at least for me.

The first time I saw TDK, terrorism (9/11, Al-Qaeda, Islam, etc.) didn't enter my mind once. Besides, I think in 2008, the thought/fear of terrorism had already subsided greatly.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I'm not trying to get political, but the Tea Party movement while better organized, is a strongly anti-government movement and against that form of control with the "Take Our Country Back" in their rhetoric and vilifying imagery of Barack Obama. Bane is proposing--a much more radical--form of anti-government and anti-order with "Take Control" while defaming images of Harvey Dent. And in the land of Gotham City, order is Batman.

The Tea Party isn't anti-government. They are for limited government, i.e. they think the government has gotten too big. I live in the freakin' UK for crying out loud and I know at least that much. Anti-government would be anarchy. The Tea Party isn't against control qua control, they are against control in areas that infringe upon certain rights.

And Tale of Two Cities? That was about two societies, one at the brink of collapse due to inequality and economic angst....while we're not on the verge of a revolution, there are similar feelings of disenchantment in this country, "We are the 99 percent" and what not. I'm not saying the movie is going to be anti-protest or organization, but I expect it to be allegorical on the feeling of social unrest in the country at the moment.

You expect it to be allegorical? If its allegorical I'm going to hate it. I want an entertaining movie, not some message being shoved down my throat. Its themes may be relevant here and there to current issues but throwing some allegory in would be horrible.

I'm sure some people will think it is allegorical, though, just like people thought TDK was an allegory of Bush vs. terrorism.

If we want to discuss that, let's take it ot the Politics thread.

As I said a few posts back, I don't want to discuss it.

 

[floreairfoot]

I'm not trying to get political, but the Tea Party movement while better organized, is a strongly anti-government movement and against that form of control with the "Take Our Country Back" in their rhetoric and vilifying imagery of Barack Obama. Bane is proposing--a much more radical--form of anti-government and anti-order with "Take Control" while defaming images of Harvey Dent. And in the land of Gotham City, order is Batman.

Is he vilifying government, corporations, or both?

Do we know, or is that speculation?

 

[BDouglas]

The first time I saw TDK, terrorism (9/11, Al-Qaeda, Islam, etc.) didn't enter my mind once. Besides, I think in 2008, the thought/fear of terrorism had already subsided greatly.

TDK is more about the "war on terror" than the physical act of terror or 9/11 the event. Though it obviously does make statements about that as well given the nature and random-ness of terror which Joker represents.

TDK's themes, political and otherwise, were about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the knee caps.

Well it's not so faint in the background that it doesn't draw some sort of response, but this thread is evidence alone that it is subtext that one can take in different directions. So some of it was subtle, some of it was very much intended to be blatant.

I don't see how one would balk at giving a movie layers of intelligence and depth, being that it is ACTUALLY about something, or comments on something in one form or the other.

Comic book movies NEED more of this. Iron Man was better for it. It touched on it as well with the "ten rings" stuff. People more often than not in reviews just labeled them as a generic "Al-Queda"-lite type outfit.

And quite frankly the movie works better as them being an un-named Al Queda like group as opposed to some cheesy comic book band of villains. It helps further bring a fantastical character into our world, thus making him relatable, and the movie more impactful.

It only further enhances the movie experience to have this kind of subtext, and makes the films haunting, and powerful enough to stay with you.

Aka being a good piece of cinema. Because if something doesn't stay with you, than it is easily forgettable. If it doesn't draw out some powerful response in you ... what's the point?

Then it's just mindless snoozefest stuff that is easily forgettable. See Cpt America, Green Lantern, Thor, Iron Man 2, etc