Dare I Criticize the Batman Franchise?

[Fused]

Boy I wasn't joking. Maybe I underestimated the franchise some, but no I wasn't joking. You guys gonna yell at me now? Let me expand on that, On Batman Begins, when batman is interrogating the crook and says, "swear to me!", I laugh every time I see it. It sounds so fake. He sounds like a wolverine wannabe for that part and the rest of the time that he is Batman he talks regular. And Nolan is kind of ruining the Joker. Nolan's joker is a lot different than the one in the comics. The joker is supposed to have an assortment of prank/weapons. Nolan's Joker is just an emo anarchist that happens to wear make-up, rather than being an insane criminal that is dressed like a clown as he is depicted in the comics. I like the '89 Batman's Joker style better...shall I continue...?

Wow your taste gives your post credibility the County Fair Weak Sauce Award.

 

[samebattime]

i think that every film has a love story because... well most every film out there has some sort of love story. it's a mainstream movie thing, gotta be a love story in there somewhere.

 

[bullets]

And Nolan is kind of ruining the Joker. Nolan's joker is a lot different than the one in the comics. The joker is supposed to have an assortment of prank/weapons. Nolan's Joker is just an emo anarchist that happens to wear make-up, rather than being an insane criminal that is dressed like a clown as he is depicted in the comics. I like the '89 Batman's Joker style better...shall I continue...?

Nolan is doing a realistic interpretation of the character. Are you saying that you were dissapointed didn't pull more silly pranks??? I thought the pencil trick was enough for me . Are you saying TDK's Joker wasn't an insane criminal that dressed like a clown. Also The Joker was alot more dangerous than an incapable emo kid. Nolan captued the essense of the Joker in his film and that should be neough to satisfy any fan of the comics.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I was glad that Joker got away from the gadget gimmicks. I am glad that Nolan isn't just rehashing what's been done before, just b/c the character is familiar. (SINGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
I will touch on one thing that's bothered me, & I think this thread is as good a place as any.
I am not overly crazy about ANY of Batman's onscreen love interests. Vicki was alright, for the most part. BUt I didn't like the way he was willing to reveal his secret to a prominent media figure on the strength of one date.
Selina Kyle was just poorly presented, IMO, & Bruce should've been able to see how disturbed she was. I'm used to Selina being on Bruce's level & challenging him at every turn. She did that here, but in some of the wrong ways. Plus that mistletoe thing just made my ass itch! Only the strength of Keaton & Pfeiffer's performances made this even close to tolerable.
Chase Meridian was a total ditz. To be a licensed psychiatrist, she was about as bright as a decorative Autumn squash & about as useful as a black highlighter. Her stupid little schoolgirl crush on Batman made it even harder to take her seriously. Kissing him & trying to set up a date in the middle of a fight?!?! How stupid can she be? And telling him that the coin that Two-Face uses to make all of his decisions can be exploited? Ooh-really? Next you'll tell me there's cowboys in Texas. "Batman will come for me" made me want to slap her, & when Bruce told her his origin & she replied, "What are you trying to tell me?" I hoped he would dump her right then & there.
Julie Madison had about 8 minutes of screentime, but still showed about as much personality as a piece of cheese.
Rachel Dawes wasn't even cute (either of her) & for her to claim to be in love w/Bruce when she never really knew him is just silly. Plus there was a lack of chemistry (again, both Hlmes AND Gyllenhaal).

 

[The Major]

The only real long term love interest Batman has is Catwoman. She's the only one I think could be considered his "Lois".

Talia might be second, but she's not a true love interest like Selina can be. Most of the time she's either trying to seduce him to the "dark side" or kill him.

The rest are footnotes.

 

[Ben Breeck]

Vicki Vale may be something of a one note character, but I think good use can be put to Betty Kane/Batwoman I, Barbara Kingslover, or even Dinah Lance/Black Canary II in an Awkward Love triangle involving Oliver Queen (Yes, this means Homaging All Star Batman, but any port in a storm).

 

[The Major]

Dinah could definitely work as a love interest in a triangle between Bruce and Ollie in a team up/versus movie with Batman and Green Arrow. I'd just prefer she just stay permanently with the GA or BOP (if it ever gets a film) film franchises.

 

[BLACKVULCAN]

Joker with gadgets/pranks....bad. Joker with disappearing pencil trick... Priceless!

hehe. carry on

 

[Ben Breeck]

The gadgets I could care less about, but the pranks are part of what makes him The Joker, and not, say, Anarky, Mad Bomber, or Mr. Szaz.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I agree with the love story with all the Batman films, and I'm glad they

Spoiler

killed Rachel Dawes

, since her character really started to annoy me.

I concur.

 

[Crook]

I hope you guys realize that dissing on Joker's gadgets is effectively dissing the character himself. Considering the gadgets have been a trademark for the better part of his history. Hell, it still exists today.

I'm hoping instead what you guys aren't keen on, is the tone of how the character is presented, with his toys. That I can understand better.

 

[DACrowe]

Look I love Joker in the movie and Nolan made him work without his gadgets, but overall I think his gadgets are an element of the character that makes him so entertaining. HIs new, inventive and fun ways to kill people. TAS which everyone loves as the "benchmark" understood this. One of my favorite images is Harley Quinn beating/killing a bunch of mobsters in Metropolis by hopping on them with a pogo stick.

Now Nolan's vision did not need the pranks and toys, but in the comics they are necessary. If Ledger lived and the character returned in a major way in part III I would've liked to have seen some more pranks. The joy buzzer of death for example (they don't have to use the electrocution like B'89, as priceless as it is. Look at the smilex venom joy buzzer in TKJ for example).

Now I'm not saying I want to see Joker hide out in an amusement park and have jack in the boxes that have his face and shoot giant tommy guns. But a little "prankster" elements in his murders is always nice. But since Joker is not coming back (beyond a cameo where we don't see his face but just a laugh and I hair in an Arkham cell, I bet) it doesn't matter.

 

[Chris Wallace]

The gadgets I could care less about, but the pranks are part of what makes him The Joker, and not, say, Anarky, Mad Bomber, or Mr. Szaz.

I very much saw the Joker-it's not about pranks, it's about the personality. The dementia. Joker has had numerous stories where he didn't resort to being just April Fool's Day gone horribly wrong, but still remained effective. But at the same time, I don't feel the pranks were really lacking. You got the ones he pulled in the bank, the disappearing pencil, & let's not forget this.

Who needs poisoned laughing gas?

 

[Lauryn2000]

Why are we even discussing this? If he has a problem with BB then take it to the BB forum.


He admitted he's a Marvel fan. He's just jealous that Iron Man was getting all the praise (this is how to do a superhero movie) at the beginning of summer and now TDK is stealing all the thunder and being calle a "masterpiece" and "raises the bar for comic movies."

At this rate...I think you have to be a fan of comic books.Enough with the DC vs Marvel silliness.I grew up reading marvel comic books but it was Batman (Adam West) and Superman in syndication (b and w-the other Reeves) that I grew up watching on tv as a young child.
I actually believed a man could fly from Superman....

Iron Man was excellent but The Dark Knight took a superhero to heights we've never seen before.

We should all embrace this...Iron Man and Dark Knight that they are staying true to which ever comic book,graphic novel adaptation,that they are borrowing from,to make it as interesting as ever on the big screen.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Amen. Let's not go into another silly publisher rivalry. I tend to think the fans take this stupid contention more seriously than the publishers themselves do.

 

[BLACKVULCAN]

The disappearing pencil thing was basically a prank. The bomb with the bank president was a prank. Pranks are ok, but when you get into the gadgets/ toys.It can easily become campy.Everybody raved about how great Jack Nicholson Joker was.Those things were some of the reasons I never dug him like others did. I mean who would actually give the Joker a bazillion volt joy buzzer to kill someone with? A whoopie cushion with smilex in it?Thats all fine and cool in a comic,but we are headed back down Schumacher lane with that stuff in a serious movie.

 

[GhostPoet]

The disappearing pencil thing was basically a prank. The bomb with the bank president was a prank. Pranks are ok, but when you get into the gadgets/ toys.It can easily become campy.Everybody raved about how great Jack Nicholson Joker was.Those things were some of the reasons I never dug him like others did. I mean who would actually give the Joker a bazillion volt joy buzzer to kill someone with? A whoopie cushion with smilex in it?Thats all fine and cool in a comic,but we are headed back down Schumacher lane with that stuff in a serious movie.

Indeed. I actually cringe a little when I look back at Jack's version of the Joker. Heath is by far one of my favorite Jokers. It brings the sadistic menace back to the character.

 

[birdgirl]

I finally saw the movie this weekend. I have 3 critiques. The first two don't take it down any, in my opinion. The last one does.

1. Was it just me or did Gotham look different in this movie than the first? I wanted the look from the first movie back. TDK looked too "2007/2008" specific.
2. Bale's Batman voice.
3. The length. Don't get me wrong. It was a really, really good movie. But had they tightened it up a bit, and made it come in at two hours, I'd rate it an A+. As it is, just an A.

 

[Chris Wallace]

If by "first", you mean Begins, I'd have to say no, as both were filmed primarily in Chicago. I'm more than familiar enough w/Chi-Town's landscape & architecture to say the cityscape was most assuredly consistent.

 

[Chris Wallace]

The disappearing pencil thing was basically a prank. The bomb with the bank president was a prank. Pranks are ok, but when you get into the gadgets/ toys.It can easily become campy.Everybody raved about how great Jack Nicholson Joker was.Those things were some of the reasons I never dug him like others did. I mean who would actually give the Joker a bazillion volt joy buzzer to kill someone with? A whoopie cushion with smilex in it?Thats all fine and cool in a comic,but we are headed back down Schumacher lane with that stuff in a serious movie.

Based on your argument, between those elements, the boxing glove & the henchmen's jackets, we were already headed down that lane. Honestly, I tend to agree. But in listing pranks, why does no one mention the smiles painted on the victims? To me, that beats Smilex hands down. It's more deliberate & personal.
I liked Jack's Joker, but let's be real about it; he was mostly playful & silly. Heath's was scary. Menacing. He was a far greater threat, & that's what we needed to see, lest we end up back on the Adam West path.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Oh-and which was sillier; the poisoned balloons or the Batwing just happening to have a giant pair of scissors built into it to take care of them?
Another thing about Heath's Joker that makes me shudder every time I think back on it or watch a clip; the voice. I don't know where the hell he found that voice & I wish he was alive so I could ask him. IMO, his Joker voice eclipses even the brilliant work of Mark Hamill in the animated series.

 

[birdgirl]

If by "first", you mean Begins, I'd have to say no, as both were filmed primarily in Chicago. I'm more than familiar enough w/Chi-Town's landscape & architecture to say the cityscape was most assuredly consistent.

Thanks for the reply. I guess I just felt that the look to Begins was a little more retro, and that look was missing. Maybe I was just missing the monorail.

 

[BLACKVULCAN]

Based on your argument, between those elements, the boxing glove & the henchmen's jackets, we were already headed down that lane. .

Definitely. I gave Burton's Batmen flick a pass because they were quirky( Those penguins with rockets on their backs came really close to camp though) like all Burton's flicks are. Jack's joker in noway scared the crap outta me like heath's did.Nolan's Flicks are the best Batman flicks I've ever seen.I am sure that as comic book fans we all want our media to be taken seriously as an artform, and somethings again are best left to it's original form and not for the big screen.I mean we could get Robin with his Holy Rusted Metal stuff again.Schumacher lane? Adam West Path? Man i knew i shouldn't have made that left turn at Albuquerque!
.... oh and funny you mention the Batwing with the giant scissors cause i was like what the hell is that?!

 

[JackBauer]

Oh-and which was sillier; the poisoned balloons or the Batwing just happening to have a giant pair of scissors built into it to take care of them?
Another thing about Heath's Joker that makes me shudder every time I think back on it or watch a clip; the voice. I don't know where the hell he found that voice & I wish he was alive so I could ask him. IMO, his Joker voice eclipses even the brilliant work of Mark Hamill in the animated series.

I was with you all the way until that part. As great as Heath's Joker was, it still wasn't enough to beat Hamill's.

 

[The Shadow]

Yeah. I love how mark hamil plays him.