Daredevil's 3 Seasons Equal Or Surpass TDK Trilogy And Feige Had Nothing To Do With It... Discuss.

[Flint Marko]

I still to this day do not understand why Nolan opened TDKR with Batman retired. It's massively deflating after TDK, and slows the film right down. *shrugs*

That was downright shocking to me on my first viewing and I never got over it. TDK ends on an incredible note where Batman seemingly embraces his role as the Dark Knight.... and then doesn’t leave his house for 8 years. Lol

 

[The Joker]

That was downright shocking to me on my first viewing and I never got over it. TDK ends on an incredible note where Batman seemingly embraces his role as the Dark Knight.... and then doesn’t leave his house for 8 years. Lol

That's not the case at all, and the movie even tells you that. It says Batman was gone since the night Dent died. Not Bruce Wayne. He continued to try and help as Bruce. Bruce ventured his company on the clean energy project. But when that fell through due to the high risks with the fusion reactor, he mothballed the project, hid the reactor, then he became a recluse.

 

[Whatupman]

For me, Daredevil has definitively surpassed the TDK trilogy(shocking considering my avatar, I know). I really like the TDK trilogy, and absolutely love The Dark Knight, but the most important thing for me in movies and TV shows is the protagonist, and I find Matt Murdock/Daredevil to be a much more compelling character than what Bruce Wayne/Batman is in the TDK trilogy. I just find Matt to have such depth and complexity that Bruce is simply lacking. Matt is also more unpredictable and have more of an edge to him, which I find interesting, while Bruce comes across more like a straightforward hero without much underneath the surface. Compared to the best Batman comics, I find Batman in the TDK trilogy to be quite bland and boring. There's something missing there. Comparing Matt and Bruce's character arcs through the seasons and the movies, I find Matt's character arc in season 3 to be the most compelling character arc either of them goes through.

I suppose it's a little bit unfair to compare the characters depth when Matt has so many more hours assigned to exploring his mind, but I do think that Nolan could have done a better job with creating a complex protagonist. I also find Charlie Cox's performance to be much better than Christian Bale's. I really like Bale as an actor, but I never found him to be great as Bruce Wayne/Batman. There's an intensity missing there. Also, I'm so grateful Cox doesn't use a ridiculous voice when he's Daredevil. It's really hard to take Batman seriously when he sounds like that.

Even if this is not as important, I have to mention the fight scenes. It's quite embarrassing that Daredevil's fight scenes are so much better than the ones in the TDK trilogy. Considering that both characters are martial artist experts, and that the TDK trilogy should have much more time and resources at hand to develop the fight scenes, it's astounding that Daredevil still comes out on top and it isn't even close.

 

[jmc]

Comparing TV and movies is a fools errand, they are two totally different mediums each with their own advantages and disadvantages. That said, having just binge watched DD season 3 in one day.... this might be the single best superhero related thing I've ever watched. I don't make that call lightly, but watching this season play out I was amazed at its consistency, it's ability to continuously increase the tension, and for delivering probably the best pair of live action superhero villains ever. I'm going to go so far to say that Vincent D'onofrio's Kingpin ranks right along side Health Ledgers Joker. The way he was able to manipulate, to play everyone for fools, to bend everybody to his will, and to be 10 steps ahead of everyone was amazing. He is brilliant, frightening, and fascinating. And Bullseye? He may not have worn the costume, but by zod what an amazing character evolution. Every single Netflix MCU series has had issues with finding enough story to last the full 13 episodes. DD season 3 is the only one that felt like all 13 episodes where used fully. Netflix may very well cancel Jessica Jones along with Iron First and Luke Cage, but they would be bat **** crazy to cancel DD after this. Best TV series I've watched in a long time.

 

[Flint Marko]

That's not the case at all, and the movie even tells you that. It says Batman was gone since the night Dent died. Not Bruce Wayne. He continued to try and help as Bruce. Bruce ventured his company on the clean energy project. But when that fell through due to the high risks with the fusion reactor, he mothballed the project, hid the reactor, then he became a recluse.

The house part was basically a joke, and the bolded is my criticism. That feels like a complete swerve from where things were seemingly headed in 2008 vs where we found the character in 2012. It isn't an outright contradiction but it was, and still is, a jarring transition between movies for me.

 

[Awest66]

For me, Daredevil has definitively surpassed the TDK trilogy(shocking considering my avatar, I know). I really like the TDK trilogy, and absolutely love The Dark Knight, but the most important thing for me in movies and TV shows is the protagonist, and I find Matt Murdock/Daredevil to be a much more compelling character than what Bruce Wayne/Batman is in the TDK trilogy. I just find Matt to have such depth and complexity that Bruce is simply lacking. Matt is also more unpredictable and have more of an edge to him, which I find interesting, while Bruce comes across more like a straightforward hero without much underneath the surface. Compared to the best Batman comics, I find Batman in the TDK trilogy to be quite bland and boring. There's something missing there. Comparing Matt and Bruce's character arcs through the seasons and the movies, I find Matt's character arc in season 3 to be the most compelling character arc either of them goes through.

I really for the life of me, Don't see how how Christian Bale's Bruce Wayne was anymore "bland/boring" than any other incarnation of that character. He embodied the character from the comics pretty much to a T and if were talking source material, Batman usually is a more straightforward hero than Daredevil and Daredevil in turn is usually more unpredictable and "edgy" than Batman is so that really is more on the source than the people adapting it.

I definitely think Bruce had the more consistent character development between the two throughout the trilogy while Matt kind of got lost in the shuffle in the second season of his show.

I do think that Nolan could have done a better job with creating a complex protagonist.

Exhibit A. Batman Begins.

 

[Whatupman]

I really for the life of me, Don't see how how Christian Bale's Bruce Wayne was anymore "bland/boring" than any other incarnation of that character. He embodied the character from the comics pretty much to a T and if were talking source material, Batman usually is a more straightforward hero than Daredevil and Daredevil in turn is usually more unpredictable and "edgy" than Batman is so that really is more on the source than the people adapting it.


I definitely think Bruce had the more consistent character development between the two throughout the trilogy while Matt kind of got lost in the shuffle in the second season of his show.

Well, that's fair enough. I find Bale's Batman to be more bland and boring compared to how he's portrayed in The Long Halloween, The Dark Knight Returns and the awesome comics I have where the great Norm Breyfogle was doing the art. But I don't think that point is that important. I find Matt Murdock to be a more interesting character in the comics too, so even if Batman was more like how I find him in those comics I talked about, I would still like Matt more.

Hah, I also find that Bruce kind of got lost in the shuffle in his second outing.

Exhibit A. Batman Begins.

Is Bruce really complex in Batman Begins? I suppose he has more depth than the ordinary superhero, but I wouldn't call him that complex.

 

[Awest66]

Hah, I also find that Bruce kind of got lost in the shuffle in his second outing.

Considering the Dark Knight is about Batman's impact on Gotham City, I can't help but disagree. Daredevil himself was definitely lost in the shuffle in his second season. the third season definitely course corrected that but still.

Bale I think, definitely deserves a lot more credit than he's usually given in the TDK trilogy. He's essentially playing three characters (Batman, Playboy Bruce Wayne and Private Bruce Wayne) and he does an excellent job distinguishing them all. He is for my money the first actor to get it right in live-action

Charlie Cox is still great as Matt Murdock don't get me wrong but he didn't always get the best material to work with.

Is Bruce really complex in Batman Begins? I suppose he has more depth than the ordinary superhero, but I wouldn't call him that complex.

When you get down to it, Batman is as straightforward a character as there ever has been. What is the most "complex" version of the character you've seen?

 

[Filmfreak]

Yeah I actually think we've seen a better character development in Nolan's three movies than the whole three seasons of DD. And I liked Matt's progression for the most part. Besides the majority of season two as mentioned and a few backs and forths with his friends or embracing his identity in all seasons.

 

[Whatupman]

Considering the Dark Knight is about Batman's impact on Gotham City, I can't help but disagree. Daredevil himself was definitely lost in the shuffle in his second season. the third season definitely course corrected that but still.

Bale I think, definitely deserves a lot more credit than he's usually given in the TDK trilogy. He's essentially playing three characters (Batman, Playboy Bruce Wayne and Private Bruce Wayne) and he does an excellent job distinguishing them all. He is for my money the first actor to get it right in live-action

Charlie Cox is still great as Matt Murdock don't get me wrong but he didn't always get the best material to work with.

But just because The Dark Knight is about Batman's impact on Gotham City doesn't mean that Bruce himself actually has a well-written and compelling character arc. I found Harvey Dent's arc to be more compelling and better written. And, yes, season 2 of Daredevil is definitively the season with the worst writing.

Yeah ... I didn't think that Bale was great as any of the three characters. He's good as playboy Bruce and private Bruce, but I find his Batman to be lacking.

When you get down to it, Batman is as straightforward a character as there ever has been. What is the most "complex" version of the character you've seen?

That's actually interesting, I haven't thought much about Batman's complexity before. I actually don't know which version of them I've seen that is the most complex. Huh. What do you find complex about him in Batman Begins?

 

[Awest66]

But just because The Dark Knight is about Batman's impact on Gotham City doesn't mean that Bruce himself actually has a well-written and compelling character arc

Bruce Wayne is still very much at the center of The Dark Knight and his actions are what drive both Harvey and the Joker. His learning about Batman's malleability as a symbol and dealing with the fallout of the Joker corrupting his intent to inspire the people is a very well-written character arc.

I found Harvey Dent's arc to be more compelling and better written.

That to me is like saying Wilson Fisk's character arc was more compelling and better written that Daredevils.

Yeah ... I didn't think that Bale was great as any of the three characters. He's good as playboy Bruce and private Bruce, but I find his Batman to be lacking.

I could not disagree more. I honestly don't see how he's "bland/boring" in the role anymore than Charlie Cox is as Matt.

What do you find complex about him in Batman Begins?

Maybe "complex" isn't quite the right word but I found his entire character journey of learning to confront and use fear, about learning to channel his anger as Batman. I find that to be just as good if not better than anything from Matt in Daredevil.

 

[Flint Marko]

Not sure I've ever voiced this before, but a nitpick I've always had with TDK is the simple fact that it acknowledges Batman is unable to turn his neck. I mean we can clearly see he can't but to acknowledge the limitations of the costume within the universe to the point where you're upgrading the suit so he can turn his neck is kind of insane to me. That's something you don't call attention to because, as ridiculous as it is to be fighting someone in a bat costume, it's even more ridiculous to be fighting in a costume where you can't move your head. Just make that upgrade without calling any attention to it.

Is that an incredibly dumb nitpick? Of course, and it doesn't lessen my enjoyment of the movie, but it always weirds me out every time I see that scene

 

[Whatupman]

Bruce Wayne is still very much at the center of The Dark Knight and his actions are what drive both Harvey and the Joker. His learning about Batman's malleability as a symbol and dealing with the fallout of the Joker corrupting his intent to inspire the people is a very well-written character arc.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree when it comes to his arc. I found it to be one of the weaker parts of TDK.

That to me is like saying Wilson Fisk's character arc was more compelling and better written that Daredevils.

And it's nothing wrong if you think that. Just as there's people who think that Poindexter has the best arc in season 3. I don't agree personally, but I understand why people would think so.

I could not disagree more. I honestly don't see how he's "bland/boring" in the role anymore than Charlie Cox is as Matt.

One of the things I really like with Cox's performance, that I don't find in Bale's, is this kind of low-key intensity that Matt Murdock has. You believe that no one would would think that Matt is a superhero when he's in lawyer mode, just like you believe no one would think that Bruce is a superhero when he's in his playboy mode, but I like that if you look a little bit closer at Matt, you can often feel his repressed anger. I don't find that in Bale's performance/the writing for Bruce, which probably makes me feel that he's bland/boring. I actually found that low-key intensity in Michael Keaton's performances as Bruce Wayne/Batman, and maybe that's why he's my favourite Batman.

Maybe "complex" isn't quite the right word but I found his entire character journey of learning to confront and use fear, about learning to channel his anger as Batman. I find that to be just as good if not better than anything from Matt in Daredevil.

I actually do like Bruce's character arc in Batman Begins, but I have to say that I find Matt's character arc in season 3 to be so much more layered and compelling. How he starts the season with being physically and spiritually broken, being angry at God and giving up being Matt Murdock in an effort to shield himself from his friends because he's afraid of being abandoned again, and then ends the season with embracing his life as Matt Murdock and everything that comes with it and stops being afraid.

 

[Zarex]

I'm about half way through DD Season 3 and its pretty good so far, but certainly not an all-timer. The acting is terrific. Sister Maggie and Benjamin Poindexter are great additions and Foggie remains a stand out. And the action scenes are top notch. The prison escape scene in particular is a stand out.

But DD3, like all the Netflix Marvel programs, suffers from the same damn pacing problems. As always I'm left thinking a significant reduction in runtime would have been a huge improvement. Bullseye's origin, Matt's church basement sparring session and anything involving Karen has been a dull slog.

I just got through the Dueling Daredevils, which was great, but why didn't Matt just take off his damn mask and stay down? Why didn't Karen get the statement from Fisk's stabber instead of waiting for the (inevitable) murder of his witness? It's entertaining, but (so far) DD3 has been closer to DD2 than DD1.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I'm about half way through DD Season 3 and its pretty good so far, but certainly not an all-timer. The acting is terrific. Sister Maggie and Benjamin Poindexter are great additions and Foggie remains a stand out. And the action scenes are top notch. The prison escape scene in particular is a stand out.

But DD3, like all the Netflix Marvel programs, suffers from the same damn pacing problems. As always I'm left thinking a significant reduction in runtime would have been a huge improvement. Bullseye's origin, Matt's church basement sparring session and anything involving Karen has been a dull slog.

I just got through the Dueling Daredevils, which was great, but why didn't Matt just take off his damn mask and stay down? Why didn't Karen get the statement from Fisk's stabber instead of waiting for the (inevitable) murder of his witness? It's entertaining, but (so far) DD3 has been closer to DD2 than DD1.

Spoiler

The point of turning himself over to the FBI was doing it in a way that cleared his name. He couldn't stay their with his evidence of being innocent gone. Unless he wanted to remain in corrupt FBI custody, of course.

I disagree with you so much on that post. But you yourself are only half way through it. Finish the season first I say.

 

[Zarex]

Spoiler

The point of turning himself over to the FBI was doing it in a way that cleared his name. He couldn't stay their with his evidence of being innocent gone. Unless he wanted to remain in corrupt FBI custody, of course.

I disagree with you so much on that post. But you yourself are only half way through it. Finish the season first I say.

I may have missed something there.

Spoiler

Losing Fisk's stabber certainly makes it more difficult to link that crime to Wilson, but I don't see how it worsens Matt's situation. And any concern that the Feds were going to link Matt to DD are pretty much gone IF he stays at the crime scene.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I may have missed something there.

Spoiler

Losing Fisk's stabber certainly makes it more difficult to link that crime to Wilson, but I don't see how it worsens Matt's situation. And any concern that the Feds were going to link Matt to DD are pretty much gone IF he stays at the crime scene.

Spoiler

In order to prove he was not working for Fisk is to show Fisk is manipulating the FBI. While that guy getting is suspicious, without his testimony where he talks about the deal Fisk made with him, he has no proof. So the FBI is going to side with their informant and arrest him.

 

[Awest66]

I found it to be one of the weaker parts of TDK.

The scene where Alfred comforts Bruce right after Rachel's death? You found that weak?

I actually found that low-key intensity in Michael Keaton's performances as Bruce Wayne/Batman, and maybe that's why he's my favourite Batman.

Seriously? Keaton was a terrible Bruce Wayne and honestly only an all right Batman. I found Bruce had a lot of that "low-key intensity" throughout Batman Begins while also acting how Bruce Wayne was supposed to act.

I actually do like Bruce's character arc in Batman Begins, but I have to say that I find Matt's character arc in season 3 to be so much more layered and compelling.

Matt's character arc was done well but it made him hard to like in places which I understand was the intent but sometimes it went a bit too far at times.

 

[Whatupman]

The scene where Alfred comforts Bruce right after Rachel's death? You found that weak?

No, that was a good scene. But that scene doesn't change that I find Bruce's character arc to be one of the weaker parts of TDK.

Seriously? Keaton was a terrible Bruce Wayne and honestly only an all right Batman. I found Bruce had a lot of that "low-key intensity" throughout Batman Begins while also acting how Bruce Wayne was supposed to act.

Yes, I'm entirely serious. I found Keaton to be terrific in the part. Is that so surprising? His portrayal is quite highly regarded.

Matt's character arc was done well but it made him hard to like in places which I understand was the intent but sometimes it went a bit too far at times.

I actually really appreciated that the showrunner dared(heh) to make Matt unlikable as part of his arc. I love it when shows take chances with their protagonists and don't play it safe, afraid of alienating the audience. Matt has never felt more human than he has this season and that made me empathize with him so much more.

 

[Awest66]

But that scene doesn't change that I find Bruce's character arc to be one of the weaker parts of TDK.

I really don't understand how it can be when Bruce's Arc is dependent on that scene you say is good

What are the parts of Bruces Arc you find weak? What would you have done differently?

I found Keaton to be terrific in the part. Is that so surprising? His portrayal is quite highly regarded.

It's not necessarily surprising but I find Keaton misses on the most important aspects of Batman's character (Bruce Wayne) ,he never has anything approaching character development and his movies are more about the villains than him.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

I actually really appreciated that the showrunner dared(heh) to make Matt unlikable as part of his arc. I love it when shows take chances with their protagonists and don't play it safe, afraid of alienating the audience. Matt has never felt more human than he has this season and that made me empathize with him so much more.

I agree with this. The kind of archetype of Daredevil and Batman is a person that really would be hard to like. They are driven so much by anger and that's just not healthy, so in a portrayal of a character that's grounded and serious that's the way I think you should go. Both try but Daredevil succeeds much better at it. At this point I think that Cox really feels like the definitive Daredevil as he just nails the role he's been given, while I think Batman has had actors that worked well but I still feel that I'm waiting on someone to capture it even better. Perhaps it's due to what Bale got to work with as I really liked Batman in Begins but after that I stopped caring as much about the character.

Of course it's a bit off to compare a character that has had so much development in a show compared to someone in three films, but I don't hold Batman among the film heroes that have been captured the best either.

 

[Awest66]

Of course it's a bit off to compare a character that has had so much development in a show compared to someone in three films, but I don't hold Batman among the film heroes that have been captured the best either.

I don't really consider any version of Batman to be "definitive" because of how many different versions of the character their have been at this point. I wouldn't call Bale the "definitive" Bruce Wayne/Batman but he was still a great version of the character.

 

[fan4stic]

I actually really appreciated that the showrunner dared(heh) to make Matt unlikable as part of his arc. I love it when shows take chances with their protagonists and don't play it safe, afraid of alienating the audience. Matt has never felt more human than he has this season and that made me empathize with him so much more.

I think they didn't make it worth it in the end and took it too easily.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

I don't really consider any version of Batman to be "definitive" because of how many different versions of the character their have been at this point. I wouldn't call Bale the "definitive" Bruce Wayne/Batman but he was still a great version of the character.

I think you can still have a definitive version of something that's been done more than once. You'll find many who still call Reeve the definitive Superman, and that character has certainly been done plenty of times. You can also do it by reinventing a character, like RDJ did. His version wasn't like the comics, but he did it so well that he actually changed the comics. There's no easy road to saying what becomes definitive.

 

[Whatupman]

I really don't understand how it can be when Bruce's Arc is dependent on that scene you say is good

What are the parts of Bruces Arc you find weak? What would you have done differently?

That doesn't make sense. Of course I can find one scene good and still don't love the character's overall arc. I didn't even say that I liked that particular scene because of Bruce's arc. I'm not sure what I would have done differently when it comes to his arc. I haven't seen TDK for over a year, so I can't really make a deep analysis about his character arc in that one. I just didn't find his arc to be interesting or layered.

It's not necessarily surprising but I find Keaton misses on the most important aspects of Batman's character (Bruce Wayne) ,he never has anything approaching character development and his movies are more about the villains than him.

But you're talking more about the writing than the actors actual performances. When I said that I enjoy Keaton's performance more, I'm strictly thinking about his performance.

I agree with this. The kind of archetype of Daredevil and Batman is a person that really would be hard to like. They are driven so much by anger and that's just not healthy, so in a portrayal of a character that's grounded and serious that's the way I think you should go. Both try but Daredevil succeeds much better at it. At this point I think that Cox really feels like the definitive Daredevil as he just nails the role he's been given, while I think Batman has had actors that worked well but I still feel that I'm waiting on someone to capture it even better. Perhaps it's due to what Bale got to work with as I really liked Batman in Begins but after that I stopped caring as much about the character.

Of course it's a bit off to compare a character that has had so much development in a show compared to someone in three films, but I don't hold Batman among the film heroes that have been captured the best either.

I think they didn't make it worth it in the end and took it too easily.

Too easily? What do you mean? I have never seen Matt struggle as hard as he did this season.