Dawn of the Planet of the Apes - Part 2

[Marvolo]

Caesar blames the apes for starting the war.

Koba wanted to kill the humans because of how they treated him...and he wanted to kill or imprison any ape who disagreed with him, just like any other tyrant. Caesar even said that Koba didn't do this to help the apes, but to help himself. Koba not only wanted to wipe out the humans...he wanted to rule the apes. That was an abrupt shift in what was otherwise good character development.

He only wanted to rule once he came to the conclusion that Caesar was going to work with the humans. Everything Koba did was inevitable from the beginning of the movie because of his lack of trust in humans. None of his actions were abrupt shifts. Not if youre paying attention to Koba and what he has been through and is thinking.

And yes, Caesar said Koba started the war because he fired the first shot, but Caesar is simply taking the blame like any honorable leader would and he isnt looking at the whole picture. However, we the viewers can be outside the situation and see it a bit more clearly. Koba's actions were a result of human actions. Plain and simple. You cant torture an ape for years and then give it the capacity to think in terms of revenge and war tactics and expect it to all work out fine. Humans made this war possible.

 

[jmc]

Koba's development was as natural a progressions as it gets.

 

[Heretic]

He only wanted to rule once he came to the conclusion that Caesar was going to work with the humans. Everything Koba did was inevitable from the beginning of the movie because of his lack of trust in humans. None of his actions were abrupt shifts. Not if your paying attention to Koba and what he has been through and is thinking.

Yes, Caesar ssid Koba started the war because he fired the first shot, but Caesar is being humble. We as the viewer dont have to be humble. We can call it how it i, and how it is is that Koba's actions were a result of human actions. Plain and simple.

I don't see it that way and neither does Caesar. And Koba was a brutal tyrant over the APES. He murdered an ape just because they wanted to take a prisoner instead of killing a human. They built up great reasoning in the previous hours of continuity, only to turn Koba into just another villain.

Caesar flat out says that you're wrong in the film. Koba was not doing anything to help the apes. In fact, he was killing and imprisoning apes. He was helping himself to power.

 

[DA_Champion]

When Koba points to his scars one by one and says "human, work" ... ****ing great scene.

 

[Marvolo]

I don't see it that way and neither does Caesar. And Koba was a brutal tyrant over the APES. He murdered an ape just because they wanted to take a prisoner instead of killing a human. They built up great reasoning in the previous hours of continuity, only to turn Koba into just another villain.

Caesar flat out says that you're wrong in the film. Koba was not doing anything to help the apes. In fact, he was killing and imprisoning apes. He was helping himself to power.

Youll have to go back and read my edited post.

Like I say, Koba's actions have nothing to do with power. It has to do with his trust issues from years of torture. Let me illustrate.

He locked up Caesar's supporters because he didnt trust them.

He killed Ash because he didnt trust him once he refused his orders and said he followed Caesar.

He shot Caesar so that he could get the apes to go after the humans before they came for them. Why? Because he didnt trust them and saw them stockpiling weapons

He wanted to kill the humans. Why? He thought they were dangerous He says it himself. If they give the humans electricity they will be more dangerous. He doesnt trust them. This point beats us over the head repeatedly in the film.

Everything Koba does goes back to trust issues that he developed at the hands of humans. Everything goes back to humans. Had Caesar just attacked the humans first Koba would have been fine remaining his number 2. However, Koba was never going to follow an Ape that was an ally to humans, not when he had experienced their capacity for cruelty and personally seen them gearing up for war. And he sure as hell wasnt going to wait around for the humans to attack them first. Dont forget that Gary Oldman's character says in no uncertain terms that the humans will kill every last ape to get that dam running if they have to.

You can dismiss this if you want to, but Koba's character progression was perfectly natural and handled well. This whole film is about the importance of trust. Koba's motivations come from a lack of trust not a craving for power.

Im hittin the hay. Ill pop back in later.

 

[Heretic]

Meanwhile, the least trustworthy being in the film (besides the moron who shoots the ape in the beginning) is Koba. Funny how his arc was supposed to be all about trust, yet no one should've trusted him.

 

[DA_Champion]

Heretic, I see you ranting but I've joined the conversation late and I've missed the part where you justified your concerns in greater detail. What exactly is your beef with the film? Do you actively dislike it as a whole or just wish that Koba had had more development?

 

[Silvermoth]

Koba is actually my favourite villain of the year so far

 

[DA_Champion]

Koba is actually my favourite villain of the year so far

Koba wins by default.

 

[Etienne]

Dios mio! I was so ****ing floored by this movie. Loved every bit of it, the tension throughout the movie is nerve racking. Grippingly fantastic!

As much as this is Caesars movie, I loved the human aspect of the film as well, found myself rooting for Malcolm when he went to get supplies and rooting for Oldman's character during [BLACKOUT]the Koba led assault.[/BLACKOUT]

I'm still trying to process everything I loved about this film.

 

[Heretic]

Heretic, I see you ranting but I've joined the conversation late and I've missed the part where you justified your concerns in greater detail. What exactly is your beef with the film? Do you actively dislike it as a whole or just wish that Koba had had more development?

I actually really, really, REALLY liked the movie until Koba turned into Generic Action Movie Villain.

Unfortunately, it's kinda like X-Men: Days of Future Past...where I was loving the movie until they made the mistake of showing Wolverine waking up in the future (meaning, post X-Men: Apocalypse and other movies that havent even been written yet) and all of his friends were alive and happy and the world seemed okay. I don't want to be told "hey, in case you're worried about the heroes in the next film, no worries...they all live." As a result, that scene in X-Men not only tainted my opinion of that movie, but future X-movies.

Koba's motivation switching from hatred of humans/wanting to protect the apes to wanting personal power to rule over apes with an iron fist does not ruin the entire movie for me...but I feel it is a massive wasted opportunity. By having the hero of the franchise admit that the apes caused the war, it alters everything that came before. The "bigots" who believed in genocide turned out to be RIGHT. They should have slaughtered the apes because the apes were going to slaughter them. I don't feel comfortable with a movie that is seemingly an allegory for the white man settling into native land and being helped by the natives that then tells me that the white man was right to try to commit genocide against the savage natives. I get that the message was actually that there are bad, tyrannical "people" in all cultures, but I feel that this was the wrong movie to tell that message in. I personally needed some space between the concepts in the first half of the film and the concepts in the second.

But, as I said...it's a shame because I was loving the film to that point and think that parts of it (like the "human work" scene) were amazing.

 

[terry78]

Koba got power mad over time, that's the long and short of it. He was never a stable character, but while that was the fault of the mistreatment he got, the other apes there that had been mistreated all followed Caesar's decisions regardless of their thoughts on humans. Only when Koba framed them for the shooting did they get enraged enough to attack.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

This was a spectacular movie. Felt extremely natural and I applaud the use of cgi in this.

 

[Broseph44]

Koba's development was as natural a progressions as it gets.

This, I really don't get Heretics view on this whole situation. Like I said I think he saw a different film then we did.

 

[Pickleweasel]

$8,216,757 Monday 57% drop

Not bad wish it was a little better though. Hopefully Tuesday is 8.5

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I actually really, really, REALLY liked the movie until Koba turned into Generic Action Movie Villain.

Unfortunately, it's kinda like X-Men: Days of Future Past...where I was loving the movie until they made the mistake of showing Wolverine waking up in the future (meaning, post X-Men: Apocalypse and other movies that havent even been written yet) and all of his friends were alive and happy and the world seemed okay. I don't want to be told "hey, in case you're worried about the heroes in the next film, no worries...they all live." As a result, that scene in X-Men not only tainted my opinion of that movie, but future X-movies.

Koba's motivation switching from hatred of humans/wanting to protect the apes to wanting personal power to rule over apes with an iron fist does not ruin the entire movie for me...but I feel it is a massive wasted opportunity. By having the hero of the franchise admit that the apes caused the war, it alters everything that came before. The "bigots" who believed in genocide turned out to be RIGHT. They should have slaughtered the apes because the apes were going to slaughter them. I don't feel comfortable with a movie that is seemingly an allegory for the white man settling into native land and being helped by the natives that then tells me that the white man was right to try to commit genocide against the savage natives. I get that the message was actually that there are bad, tyrannical "people" in all cultures, but I feel that this was the wrong movie to tell that message in. I personally needed some space between the concepts in the first half of the film and the concepts in the second.

But, as I said...it's a shame because I was loving the film to that point and think that parts of it (like the "human work" scene) were amazing.

The movie doesn't have any evil antagonist nor does it paint one side as completely wrong.

The apes had abused torture victim Koba who was understandably vengeful towards humans and took power to ensure ape survival.

The humans had family-man Dreyfus who genuinely wanted a stable and happy community but was willing to wipe out the apes to get it.

Neither of these characters were completely unreasonable or outright evil.

But both sides also had good-hearted protagonist who fought hard for peaceful co-existence (Caesar and Malcolm).

The movie did it's best to show that every war is complex and grey. It's never as simple as good versus evil.

 

[Heretic]

In real life, settlers needed help in this land that they were unprepared for. The natives gave them the help they needed, and the settlers demanded more...so they used their technology to kill the natives and steal their food etc. As I mentioned before, it is very likely that the first Thanksgiving feasts were after they SLAUGHTERED natives and stole their food for a feast.

In the movie, the people are in a land that they are not prepared for and need the help of the natives. The natives help. The people have no real intention of leaving though, because they WILL station people permanently at that dam. They were ABSOLUTELY going to bring war to that land to ensure their own comfort.

Yet, for some reason the movie parts with history and the very allegory they were building by having the natives attack them first.

Caesar said it...Koba took power for himself, not for the apes. Koba turned evil the moment he started killing and imprisoning his own people.

War certainly kills innocent people...but Koba took on Hitler's tactics while the humans merely defended themselves against the savages...so the line of good and evil is easy to see.

 

[Golgo-13]

Yes, this!

Remember "You maniacs! You blew it up! Damn you! Damn you all to hell!"

Mankind has always been the ultimate "villain" in the series.

Well Taylor didn't witness what caused the humans to blow everything up, so naturally he's going to think that the humans are responsible for their own demise. To me, the first one (Apes '68) implies that due to nuclear war, humans wiped each other out, and then the apes started taking over because they were little to no humans left. Taylor had no idea that the war/the bombs were used in an actual attempt to stop the apes themselves. Taylor was just making assumptions.

 

[jmc]

In real life, settlers needed help in this land that they were unprepared for. The natives gave them the help they needed, and the settlers demanded more...so they used their technology to kill the natives and steal their food etc. As I mentioned before, it is very likely that the first Thanksgiving feasts were after they SLAUGHTERED natives and stole their food for a feast.

In the movie, the people are in a land that they are not prepared for and need the help of the natives. The natives help. The people have no real intention of leaving though, because they WILL station people permanently at that dam. They were ABSOLUTELY going to bring war to that land to ensure their own comfort.

Yet, for some reason the movie parts with history and the very allegory they were building by having the natives attack them first.

Caesar said it...Koba took power for himself, not for the apes. Koba turned evil the moment he started killing and imprisoning his own people.

War certainly kills innocent people...but Koba took on Hitler's tactics while the humans merely defended themselves against the savages...so the line of good and evil is easy to see.

Has it occurred to you that maybe that allegory wasn't being built at all? Something you're forgetting is that unlike history where settlers from distant lands take over an existing tribe of people is that the natives had no reason to hate those settlers from the outset, cautious yes, hatred no. Koba does, he has justification for his hatred because of what they did to him years earlier. His path was firmly laid out in Rise and his journey in Dawn was completely natural.

 

[rnewbz]

Here's my review of the movie: http://newbyfadeto.blogspot.com/2014/07/dawn-of-planet-of-apes-review.html

 

[Heretic]

Has it occurred to you that maybe that allegory wasn't being built at all? Something you're forgetting is that unlike history where settlers from distant lands take over an existing tribe of people is that the natives had no reason to hate those settlers from the outset, cautious yes, hatred no. Koba does, he has justification for his hatred because of what they did to him years earlier. His path was firmly laid out in Rise and his journey in Dawn was completely natural.

Oh come on...it's obvious! Caesar even has paint on his face. Yes, you're right...a tiny percentage of the details weren't exactly the same...but otherwise...yes...it's pretty much a clear allegory for native americans, with some African American racism thrown in. Then...it switches because they wanted the humans to be the good guys.

 

[samsnee]

I actually really, really, REALLY liked the movie until Koba turned into Generic Action Movie Villain.

Unfortunately, it's kinda like X-Men: Days of Future Past...where I was loving the movie until they made the mistake of showing Wolverine waking up in the future (meaning, post X-Men: Apocalypse and other movies that havent even been written yet) and all of his friends were alive and happy and the world seemed okay. I don't want to be told "hey, in case you're worried about the heroes in the next film, no worries...they all live." As a result, that scene in X-Men not only tainted my opinion of that movie, but future X-movies.

Koba's motivation switching from hatred of humans/wanting to protect the apes to wanting personal power to rule over apes with an iron fist does not ruin the entire movie for me...but I feel it is a massive wasted opportunity. By having the hero of the franchise admit that the apes caused the war, it alters everything that came before. The "bigots" who believed in genocide turned out to be RIGHT. They should have slaughtered the apes because the apes were going to slaughter them. I don't feel comfortable with a movie that is seemingly an allegory for the white man settling into native land and being helped by the natives that then tells me that the white man was right to try to commit genocide against the savage natives. I get that the message was actually that there are bad, tyrannical "people" in all cultures, but I feel that this was the wrong movie to tell that message in. I personally needed some space between the concepts in the first half of the film and the concepts in the second.

But, as I said...it's a shame because I was loving the film to that point and think that parts of it (like the "human work" scene) were amazing.

They wanted to slaughter the apes. They didn't need a reason to. Koba just gave them one to rally around and drum up fear in those who maybe didn't. Your mentality is the same as the humans. They don't want to reason, just get them before they get us.

The whole point of Koba's arc, as stated by Caesar, is that war brings out the evil in everyone, man or ape.

 

[Sithborg]

I think the point was cleared up by Caesar when he said he always thought apes were better than humans, but really aren't. No side was inherently better, or in the right.

 

[jmc]

Oh come on...it's obvious! Caesar even has paint on his face. Yes, you're right...a tiny percentage of the details weren't exactly the same...but otherwise...yes...it's pretty much a clear allegory for native americans, with some African American racism thrown in. Then...it switches because they wanted the humans to be the good guys.

How are you not getting it? The situation was set up from the very beginning when the humans meet the apes, Koba wants Caesar to take the fight to the humans immediately. As Caesar's sympathies for the humans increases Koba's hatred grows, eventually leading to Koba taking power. The thing you're missing is that this isn't a story about a tribe trying to defend themselves against some oppressive advanced force, if it's an allegory for anything it's a allegory for a coup d'état. The humans are the weaker of the two species in this film - there is no arguing against that, the apes had the strength in numbers and all it took for them to defeat the humans was a paranoid leader who had a deep seeded hatred for them. You can't say Blue Eyes is a bad guy, the kid like any son goes to fight because his father was killed, yet once he's on the front line he's scared to death and begins to see the horror of what's happened and sees Koba for who he really is. There are no good species or bad species in this film, just two sides with people in each camp willing to go to war for their own purpose, it was a powder-keg situation that eventually went off and Koba was the match that lit the fuse, it wasn't to make the apes look bad or the humans good, it was because the cards were already stacked up for him to be that match. You're looking at the film through the lens of native american history when in actual fact you should be looking at it through the lens of the seizing of power that is throughout history because this is at its heart a war film.

 

[IncognitoWalrus]

Oh come on...it's obvious! Caesar even has paint on his face. Yes, you're right...a tiny percentage of the details weren't exactly the same...but otherwise...yes...it's pretty much a clear allegory for native americans, with some African American racism thrown in. Then...it switches because they wanted the humans to be the good guys.

The movie might have some similarities to past situations, but the fact that it departs from history shows that it wasn't its intention. Avatar might be a better example of that kind of allegory.

Dawn never makes the humans or the apes bad. Both are fighting due to the misunderstandings caused by the jerks in their respective societies. The point is peace can be disrupted by the few who are too selfish or mistrustful to accept it.

Making Koba the central antagonist serves several purposes: 1) it is the film's great irony - all this time Caesar's worrying about the humans starting war, and it turns out the apes do; 2) Caesar learns that trusting someone based on species is wrong; 3) it is the logical progression of his damaged psyche.