DeSanto and Murphy off of Transformers 2?

[blind_fury]

Yeah, energon cubes extracting power from oil rigs while two sects fight over it has no relevance to the world we live in.

Keep shoving your head deeper in the sand, SB.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

ha! I knew he was going to talk about the Camelot and Aztec crystal episodes. This guy would use Bat-Mite to justify Joel Schumacher Batman movies.

I also specifically brought up War Dawn, The first episode (thats where "fuel for my power" comes from), The second episode (when the pillage the "ruby crystals of Burma"...somehow finding that in Washington state), and "Day of the Machines" (I could have also referenced a couple more with "Super Computer"). But thanks for playing. Also Aztec ruin one wasn't horrible, it featured yet another dumb plan by Megatron, but it had Jetfire. And if "dumb plans by Megatron" turned you off, then you probably hated all the episodes...because none of those plans were remotely well thought out.

 

[Hunter Rider]

I think our soldiers and civilians being caught in someone else's war resonates with where we are today

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Yeah, energon cubes extracting power from oil rigs while two sects fight over it has no relevance to the world we live in.

They fought on a oil rig once, it wasn't a recurring show element, they also fought over Camelot and a Ninja Robot for energon cubes. I'm sorry the Energon thing isn't very relevant, no. It was just a substance Megatron needed to get powerful and kill the Autobots.

 

[blind_fury]

I think our soldiers and civilians being caught in someone else's war resonates with where we are today

True but why avoid the energon cubes sucking the Earth dry?

Afraid they're going to offend the Dick Cheney demographic?

 

[Hunter Rider]

True but why avoid the energon cubes sucking the Earth dry?

Afraid they're going to offend the Dick Cheney demographic?

Well they have the Allspark as the Mcguffin instead,guess they figured the message of war was more important than the energy one

 

[blind_fury]

They fought on a oil rig once, it wasn't a recurring show element, they also fought over Camelot and a Ninja Robot for energon cubes. I'm sorry the Energon thing isn't very relevant, no. It was just a substance Megatron needed to get powerful and kill the Autobots.

Yeah and if they had the Decepticons attacking an oil rig once it would pay homage to the original and be relevant to our "addicted to oil" situation.

But yeah I'm sure you think Batman fighting characters that ironically parallel himself is BS-ing waaaay to much onto Batman funny books. Give the masses Bat-Mite instead dum-dum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat-Mite

Get it? because you like to focus on the weakest concepts the source material had to offer instead of the strongest. heh heh. ziiiing.

 

[blind_fury]

Well they have the Allspark as the Mcguffin instead,guess they figured the message of war was more important than the energy one

Well I just hope there's at least one scene in the sequels were Decepticons are converting oil into energon cubes in some greedy fashion. We can trivialize these things and pretend they were never in the show or acknowledge them and give the franchise some much needed layers and depth that existed in the "silly" toons.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Well I just hope there's at least one scene in the sequels were Decepticons are converting oil into energon cubes in some greedy fashion. We can trivialize these things and pretend they were never in the show or acknowledge them and give the franchise some much needed layers and depth that existed in the "silly" toons.

I never said anything about the toons being silly but to me the characters are what is important and the concept of being stuck in the middle of a war be it over energy,religion or just the sheer will to wish to dominate other races.

 

[CFlash]

I seem to remember oil tankers. And the Jetfire episode that SB keeps bringing up the ruby had a purpose- an easy way to concentrate the energy of the planet. I agree with B_F... once the premise was established early on, doesn't mean every episode had to be a battle on an oil-rig. How boring is that?

I will say that I WISH the show had a more cohesive story arc like you see in cartoons nowadays. But that's what makes it great. It didn't need to beat you over the head. Everybody knows what Transformers was about. Some people dismiss it and some don't want to be preached to. But, it takes some pretty numskull thinking to ignore the real-world relevancy of Transformers.

I mean Godzilla never stopped and said "I am an allegory for what you do this planet will destroy you in return. And you're powerless." People know exactly what Godzilla is about.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Yeah and if the had the Decepticons attacking an oil rig once it would pay homage to the original and be relevant to our "addicted to oil" situation.

But the Decepticons weren't "addicted to oil", they were addicted to power, which came from a variety of sources...usually because the writers weren't really concerned with how the Autobots and Decepticons came to fight each other but that they came to fight each other. Why does it have to be one scene from the show? You seem to feel the show rotates around that scene, which it doesn't.

There is a scene, in this movie, for example, at Hoover Dam. That seems to be a nod to the first cartoon if you ask me. In fact the scene at Hoover dam is far more crucial to the episode, it's where we first see Optimus and Megatron fight one on one...and it's one of the only episode scenes repeated in the comics (UK versions).

I mean seriously, what is your fixation. I'd say the theme of controlling the reproduction and genetic development (oddly enough that could be considered relevant) of one's own race is far more deep than "quick we need a setting for Autobots and Decepticons to fight on". They attacked tons of things in the show, military bases and cities included. And energon came from a variety of sources. And it never made as sense how they converted oil to a plasma anyways...or half of the stuff they used to create energon.

But yeah I'm sure you think Batman fighting characters that ironically parallel himself is BS-ing waaaay to much onto Batman funny books. Give the masses Bat-Mite instead dum-dum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat-Mite

Get it, because you like to focus on the weakest concepts the source material had to offer instead of the strongest. heh heh. ziiiing.

Transformers ran for three seasons, Batman has been developing off a single concept for 60 years. That's a considerable difference. Especially when the aims of the show/comic are so different. We all know why Batman was forced (not wilfully) to dumb down it's book (in fact before then it was incredibly violent...Joker killed 17 people in 1 issue), and we saw the bad results. But when Batman (1960) adapted a program to fit the current era of comics we did get something hokey that was in fact a very accurate rendition of the current book. So yes that canon is available for you to pull from.

 

[blind_fury]

I seem to remember oil tankers. And the Jetfire episode that SB keeps bringing up the ruby had a purpose- an easy way to concentrate the energy of the planet. I agree with B_F... once the premise was established early on, doesn't mean every episode had to be a battle on an oil-rig. How boring is that?

I will say that I WISH the show had a more cohesive story arc like you see in cartoons nowadays. But that's what makes it great. It didn't need to beat you over the head. Everybody knows what Transformers was about. Some people dismiss it and some don't want to be preached to. But, it takes some pretty numskull thinking to ignore the real-world relevancy of Transformers.

I mean Godzilla never stopped and said "I am an allegory for what you do this planet will destroy you in return. And you're powerless." People know exactly what Godzilla about.

People just don't want to accept or acknowledge the cartoon had timely and subversive elements because it exposes current cartoons as nothing more than Jim Jones Kool-Aid.


True story.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I seem to remember oil tankers. And the Jetfire episode that SB keeps bringing up the ruby had a purpose- an easy way to concentrate the energy of the planet. I agree with B_F... once the premise was established early on, doesn't mean every episode had to be a battle on an oil-rig. How boring is that?

I will say that I WISH the show had a more cohesive story arc like you see in cartoons nowadays. But that's what makes it great. It didn't need to beat you over the head. Everybody knows what Transformers was about. Some people dismiss it and some don't want to be preached to. But, it takes some pretty numskull thinking to ignore the real-world relevancy of Transformers.

You're retroactively throwing stuff onto Transformers that isn't there. If they wanted a show about oil shortages they would've given you a show about oil shortages. But conservation and scarcity was never brought up in the show. Optimus didn't say "if Megatron steals this energon the earth won't have enough gas for their automobiles", he'd say "If Megatron gets that fuel he'll be able to rule the galaxy" (or something like that). And you never saw the Autobots like Perceptor or Wheeljack trying to make themselves fuel efficient or create an alternative energon source. They seemed to want it just as much at the end as at the beginning.

So the premise had nothing to do with "oil" it had to do with "energon + Megatron = something bad". And energon could come from virtually everywhere.

However it is funny you mention cohesive stories because remember in Beast Wars they finally did start to touch on those things. The small Beasties called the mammoth Transformers aboard the Ark "gas guzzling giants" and talk about how inefficient their bodies were.

 

[blind_fury]

But the Decepticons weren't "addicted to oil", they were addicted to power, which came from a variety of sources...usually because the writers weren't really concerned with how the Autobots and Decepticons came to fight each other but that they came to fight each other. Why does it have to be one scene from the show? You seem to feel the show rotates around that scene, which it doesn't.

The addicted to power concept is simply too vague. It would be better to have Decepticons raid a US oil rigs for raw energy while workers scatter like roaches. That's far more effective sci-fi than have a mustache twirling villian using cliche and vague terms about power.

There is a scene, in this movie, for example, at Hoover Dam. That seems to be a nod to the first cartoon if you ask me. In fact the scene at Hoover dam is far more crucial to the episode, it's where we first see Optimus and Megatron fight one on one...and it's one of the only episode scenes repeated in the comics (UK versions).

I mean seriously, what is your fixation. I'd say the theme of controlling the reproduction and genetic development (oddly enough that could be considered relevant) of one's own race is far more deep than "quick we need a setting for Autobots and Decepticons to fight on". They attacked tons of things in the show, military bases and cities included. And energon came from a variety of sources. And it never made as sense how they converted oil to a plasma anyways...or half of the stuff they used to create energon.

Fighting over the power to grant life to machines is interesting and so is a Matrix of leadership which grants exclusive wisdom to only those worthy (Excalibur). But attacking an oil rig once for energon would only take 6 or 7 minutes out of the entire movie but adds a poignant and relevant layer to the film that makes for provocative sci-fi and pays homage to the toons in one swoop. There's really no excuse to ignore this aspect during our war in an oil rich country no less. No excuse at all.

 

[November Rain]

I would probably agree with shadow saying the series did start off as a toy advert and that is generally is...#

HOwever blind fury is also right in that its impact on people has now become ultimately important and relevant.

Otherwise why would these old shows still be for sale. just like any other marketing campaign, you would expect new adverts for new products and leave the older ones dormant.

The adverts themselves have become just as important as the products they have been trying to sell, so much so that the adverts have allowed teh sale of an old product for decades after it was released (or at least memorabilia based around it).

i do think the majority of transformers peeps remember the adverts or cartoons more than the actual toys themselves but that is just me. This was just based on the rational analysis of how many potential characters someone would be able to remember in comparison to how many transformer toys people actually managed to buy/get.

but maybe since prime is the most bought transformer toy, that's why he's the best remembered.

personally, iw ould like to think that he was the best bought toy because of cullen and the animation rather than the other way round.

 

[Hunter Rider]

When making a movie you focus on the important elements,in this case the humans trapped in the Robots war and the Allspark which has the power to dominate or protect a race depending on which hands it falls into

 

[November Rain]

I think teh oil issue can easily be placed into a second film since it's not a vital factor yet in the story being told but will eventually be as the aliens live on earth for longer periods of time.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

The addicted to power concept is simply too vague. It would be better to have Decepticons raid a US oil rigs for raw energy while workers scatter like roaches. That's far more effective sci-fi than have a mustache twirling villian using cliche and vague terms about power.

But's that what the show was and that's what Megatron was. He wasn't concerned about oil, he wasn't hungry for oil, or the would've fought over oil all the time. But they didn't. They fought over an incredibly vague substance that would've given Megatron the ability to rule or have power or some such other grand scheme of his.

Fighting over the power to grant life to machines is interesting and so is a Matrix of leadership which grants exclusive wisdom to only those worthy (Excalibur).

Well in the cartoon they never fought over the Matrix, because as you will know "[it cannot be openned] - not by a Decepticon". And the Matrix itself more or less existed to destroy Unicron. The "wisdom of the ages" really wouldn't take shape until "Return of Optimus Prime"....and by that point, as CFlash likes to point out, the Matrix was quiet Macguffin and a simply "Magic Box" that could accomplice anything they wished. At least this Allspark seems to have a grounded and stated use which makes sense within the context of the plot.

But attacking an oil rig once for energon would only take 6 or 7 minutes out of the entire movie but adds a poignant and relevant layer to the film that makes for provocative sci-fi and pays homage to the toons in one swoop.

But it might not make sense within the confines of the film. Cohesiveness of plot was always a problem for the cartoons. And you can pay homage a number of ways. My favorite episode is "the Ultimate Weapon" - which has a great twist where the Ultimate Weapon simply turns out to be a bluff by Galvatron (Rodimus "Because I used the REAL Ultimate weapon - my mind - if you had such a device you'd have used it a long time ago). The episode was great because it turned the typical cliche' of "ultimate weapon" episodes on it's head. But it doesn't necessarily have to go in a movie. And they also have several shows to pick and choose from, and all of them deserve some nod...your one favorite (and it seems only) moment you remember doesn't have to make the final cut.

There's really no excuse to ignore this aspect during our war in an oil rich country no less. No excuse at all.

Sure there is. It doesn't fit in the story they want to tell. Just like the writers of Transformers didn't have to introduce oil rigs in all their other shows, they don't have to here.

 

[CFlash]

You're retroactively throwing stuff onto Transformers that isn't there. If they wanted a show about oil shortages they would've given you a show about oil shortages. But conservation and scarcity was never brought up in the show. Optimus didn't say "if Megatron steals this energon the earth won't have enough gas for their automobiles", he'd say "If Megatron gets that fuel he'll be able to rule the galaxy" (or something like that). And you never saw the Autobots like Perceptor or Wheeljack trying to make themselves fuel efficient or create an alternative energon source. They seemed to want it just as much at the end as at the beginning.

So the premise had nothing to do with "oil" it had to do with "energon + Megatron = something bad". And energon could come from virtually everywhere.

However it is funny you mention cohesive stories because remember in Beast Wars they finally did start to touch on those things. The small Beasties called the mammoth Transformers aboard the Ark "gas guzzling giants" and talk about how inefficient their bodies were.

In his little Doogie Hauser moment when he's writing in his diary, Spike clearly stated that all the governments of the world united in agreement to give the Autobots the energy they needed.

And if Energon could come from anywhere why didn't the Decepticons just take a trip to Venus and siphon off its energy... or was there something special about this living/breathing planet here?

As for "driving the point home" about scarcity. This is something that if they did do it, would have been contraversial and you'd have right-wing groups and the "Big 3" (GM, Ford, Chryseler) up in arms. You don't need to be beat over the head with the message. All you need to do is take a look at the imagery in the show (Volcano, 4 million years thing, upset weather patterns, plague of Insecticons) to gleam some of the subtle undertones of the show.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

In his little Doogie Hauser moment when he's writing in his diary, Spike clearly stated that all the governments of the world united in agreement to give the Autobots the energy they needed.

Okay, great...but it didn't talk about scarcity. They just gave them the fuel they needed. It didn't say "The World Governments gave what precious little we had to the Autobots".

And if Energon could come from anywhere why didn't the Decepticons just take a trip to Venus and siphon off its energy...

Yeah why didn't they . (I think we've explained the show was rather illogical).

or was there something special about this living/breathing planet here?

Not so far as I know of. All planets, like Venus, or Mercury, or Mars, would have a core, so yeah they could've easily siphoned off energy from other planets.

As for "driving the point home" about scarcity. This is something that if they did do it, would have been contraversial and you'd have right-wing groups and the "Big 3" (GM, Ford, Chryseler) up in arms. You don't need to be beat over the head with the message. All you need to do is take a look at the imagery in the show (Volcano, 4 million years thing, upset weather patterns, plague of Insecticons) to gleam some of the subtle undertones of the show.

God, back to subtle undertones . They weren't there...and the Autobots were foreign cars, not GM cars.

 

[Boiiinng]

God, back to subtle undertones . They weren't there...and the Autobots were foreign cars, not GM cars.

Umm...he was referring to the movie, not the cartoon, right?

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Umm...he was referring to the movie, not the cartoon, right?

He mentioned elements from the show...so I think the show.

 

[CFlash]

Okay, great...but it didn't talk about scarcity

I think for the reasons I already stated. It was a sore topic. An otherwise great man lost an entire presidency over it.. with lower poll numbers than even George Bush has now. This despite the fact that he (Carter) worked feverishly to help the f* up stuff that happened during the previous administration (OPEC sparked the energy crisis during Nixon).

I think some of ya'll need a history lesson to understand why Transformers- coming out when it did- was as interesting as it was.

Yeah why didn't they . (I think we've explained the show was rather illogical).

Not so far as I know of. All planets, like Venus, or Mercury, or Mars, would have a core, so yeah they could've easily siphoned off energy from other planets.

I can hook you up to an I.V. with water and suger and smattering of trace minerals for the rest of your life and you wouldn't be very happy with that. We can eat a bunch of different things on this planet... but we don't. It was pretty obvious from day one that Earth had everything they needed... and they went out of their way to stress that point.

God, back to subtle undertones . They weren't there...and the Autobots were foreign cars, not GM cars.

So what? They were cars. The show also didn't state anything one way or the other. It's a stupid point.

 

[Avangarde]

Yeah why didn't they . (I think we've explained the show was rather illogical).

Not so far as I know of. All planets, like Venus, or Mercury, or Mars, would have a core, so yeah they could've easily siphoned off energy from other planets.

Well the crash landing on Earth was by chance they probably figured "hey while we are here we may as well plunder this planet since it has all this energy we need". It would have been a waste or resorces to build a ship to harvest energy from other planets if they were already on one. And don't say "but they had ships with Astotrain, Omega Supreme, and Cosmos.

 

[blind_fury]

I can hook you up to an I.V. with water and suger and smattering of trace minerals for the rest of your life and you wouldn't be very happy with that. We can eat a bunch of different things on this planet... but we don't. It was pretty obvious from day one that Earth had everything they needed... and they went out of their way to stress that point.

yup.

The fact that they're machines and they thirst for oil is not only relevant it's perfectly logical.

Rarely in sci-fi inasion movies does oil play a part. But alien robots offered the perfect opportunity for a ripe socio-political allegory.