Discussion: All Things Union

[Violet Lantern]

2 problems I see with Unions are...

• Anti-competitiveness. Unions are victims of their own success. Unions raised their wages substantially above the wages paid to nonunion workers. Therefore, many union-made products have become so expensive that sales were lost to less expensive foreign competitors and other product producing companies that are non-union. Therefore hurting the company they work for.
• Decline in the word "merit" it has turned into "mediocrity". In many union companies, workers can't advance much or at all on their own merits, but must generally move forward within the limits defined by union contracts. Employers may have trouble weeding out ineffective employees if they belong to unions (perfect example: Teaching field...the President talked about getting rid of bad teachers last night, well I wish him luck with that one, in big union states for teachers like New York? Not gonna happen.) In theory, at least, unionized workers might become so comfortable and protected that they lose the incentive to work hard for their employer. And outstanding employees might lose their desire to do their very best if there's no incentive to do so -- or worse, if they're pressured by the union to not go the extra mile at all, or in unions that are actually part of the public services, strike and leave the people that they are supposed to be helping, out in the cold...which we have recently seen.

The evils that would occur without unions(lack of health care benefits, poor working conditions,lower wages, lack of time off, crazy hours etc.) far outweigh these particular evils.

Besides, blaming unions for jobs moving overseas, to me, is a "blame the victim" mentality.

 

[BlackLantern]

And unions today only care about filling their coffers and driving up the price of labor. The things that unions fought for. Child labor, safe working conditions, mandated break/lunches. All those things are now covered under federal or state law. I do agree with matt that some jobs should have a union. Police, fire, etc.

 

[chaseter]

It's not what Unions have done in the last 20 years. It's what they did in the mid-20th century, which workers are still reaping benefits from. Remove Unions, and those gains will be reversed over time. If you think otherwise you don't understand business. They only care about maximizing their profit lines not treating their workers the way they deserve.

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Rofl at someone thinking that once unions are gone then 18 hour work days are back. I guess we owe it to the unions eh? Are they owed 40 hours and a mandatory break?

 

[Violet Lantern]

And unions today only care about filling their coffers and driving up the price of labor. The things that unions fought for. Child labor, safe working conditions, mandated break/lunches. All those things are now covered under federal or state law. I do agree with matt that some jobs should have a union. Police, fire, etc.

Yes, it's not like new issues not covered by State and Federal law ever arise. It's not like wages have stagnated over the last 30 years as Unionization has decreased.

 

[Kelly]

Sorry, but it is the unions that have the "victim" mentality, which I guess I cold put as a 3rd problem I have.

Those things you say are the "evils" no longer need Unions to enforce them...there are regulations set in place that now do that, so IMO, unions need to get the hell out of the way and let these companies grow....weed out the mediocrity, and move on.

 

[BlackLantern]

Look at any State that is Non Union and any State that is Union. Where is the Poverty and Misery?

Let's ask the state of Michigan

 

[Violet Lantern]

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Rofl at someone thinking that once unions are gone then 18 hour work days are back. I guess we owe it to the unions eh?

You NOT thinking workers rights and benefits will backslide over time if Unions went away is just as ludicrous and stupid to me. So we're even.

Are they owed 40 hours and a mandatory break?

In a word: yes.

 

[SuBe]

And unions today only care about filling their coffers and driving up the price of labor. The things that unions fought for. Child labor, safe working conditions, mandated break/lunches. All those things are now covered under federal or state law. I do agree with matt that some jobs should have a union. Police, fire, etc.

Why should Police and Fire get unions? They Unionize, pay Political campaigns to enact wage increases or they strike. They are worse than Private Sector unions.

 

[SuBe]

You NOT thinking workers rights and benefits will backslide over time if Unions went away is just as ludicrous and stupid to me. So we're even.



In a word: yes.

So, 40 hour work weeks and breaks did not exist before Unions? Man, I'm glad we have you to educate us all.

 

[chaseter]

Thanks unions for driving up costs and making the tax payer pick up the bill. Without you guys now I would be forced to work 18 hours a day for 4 bucks an hour. Oh wait, congress passed laws against that. Thanks un...I mean congress.

 

[Violet Lantern]

Sorry, but it is the unions that have the "victim" mentality, which I guess I cold put as a 3rd problem I have.

Those things you say are the "evils" no longer need Unions to enforce them...there are regulations set in place that now do that, so IMO, unions need to get the hell out of the way and let these companies grow....weed out the mediocrity, and move on.

Take away Unions and those laws will eventually be struck down. It's the continued presence of Unions that keeps them on the books. It's certainly not individual voters. Politicians are owned by Wall Street and Corporate America. Without the presence of the Unions to lobby on behalf of working people, they will repeal those safeguards.

If you think popular sentiment(as I'm sure you will try to argue that popular sentiment against those protections being repealed is all that's needed to keep them in place, not the existence of Unions) is enough, you obviously didn't pay much attention to the health care debate. All the polling showed Americans clearly in favor of a public option but it was never even seriously considered. And if you DON'T think the reason it wasn't considered was because of lobbying influence from insurance companies...well I have a lovely bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

 

[Kelly]

This is what I see with you and your opinions sometimes...

You have to be wearing some freakishly large blinders...

 

[SuBe]

Thanks unions for driving up costs and making the tax payer pick up the bill. Without you guys now I would be forced to work 18 hours a day for 4 bucks an hour. Oh wait, congress did that.

Don't forget to thank them for their hand in supporting, contributing and electing corrupt politicians.

 

[Violet Lantern]

So, 40 hour work weeks and breaks did not exist before Unions? Man, I'm glad we have you to educate us all.

Have you ever picked up a history book? During the "Gilded Age" before Unions, 70-80 hour work weeks were very common.

 

[Kelly]

Damn, join us in the 21st Century....

 

[Violet Lantern]

This is what I see with you and your opinions sometimes...

You have to be wearing some freakishly large blinders...

I feel the same way about you. It's beyond me that you honestly think business will behave itself on it's own. That's incredibly naive.

*shrugs*

Don't forget to thank them for their hand in supporting, contributing and electing corrupt politicians.

Somehow I've got a feeling you don't fault corporations for doing the same thing.

 

[BlackLantern]

And in some industries are still common. I have a friend who is a nurse and due to staffing issues, is working forced overtime. 10 - 16 hour shifts four to five days a week

 

[chaseter]

Without Kings my people would not have protection and public works for their labor. Thanks medieval monarchy. We should go back to that.

 

[Kelly]

Really, yet I see the evils and even listed them....hmmmmm. ok.

 

[Violet Lantern]

Damn, join us in the 21st Century....

The only reason we're here in the 21st century, in so far as worker's rights and benefits, is thanks to Unions.

I can't believe you honestly think businesses are any nicer than they were during the Gilded Age. They're just forced to be now.

 

[SuBe]

It's was a completely different world with a completely different mentality than now. In lesser economies, you had to work longer hours to get ahead. It's a testament to the evolution of the human condition, Freedom and Liberty, not the "Generosity" of Unions.

 

[Kelly]

The only reason we're here in the 21st century, in so far as worker's rights and benefits, is thanks to Unions.

I can't believe you honestly think businesses are any nicer than they were during the Gilded Age. They're just forced to be now.

See, RIGHT THERE....shows me you do not read my posts.....so move on, if you are not going to read posts, then you are blind in your replies and worth nothing to me in a debate. HAD you read my posts you would have seen me say SEVERAL TIMES, that unions had their place in their early history. I was actually thinking I might be able to debate with you on an intelligent level, and maybe enjoy it. Wrong...

One thing I have noticed though, it is obvious you are skimming at the least, because unless you are a speed reader, all you are doing is posting your opinion with no regard to anyone elses....in political discourse that is called ignorance of opinion.

 

[chaseter]

How can a progressive want regression? Oxymoron?

 

[SuBe]

The only reason we're here in the 21st century, in so far as worker's rights and benefits, is thanks to Unions.

I can't believe you honestly think businesses are any nicer than they were during the Gilded Age. They're just forced to be now.

So you believe it is ok for one Human to FORCE another Human to do something? Just because they wear a blue collar it's ok to Force someone in a white collar to do their bidding? That's asinine.

If it's such terrible conditions, get a job from somewhere else with better conditions or start your own company. Again, no one is Forcing you to stay there, but Unions ARE forcing their will.

 

[Violet Lantern]

So you believe it is ok for one Human to FORCE another Human to do something? Just because they wear a blue collar it's ok to Force someone in a white collar to do their bidding? That's asinine.

If it's such terrible conditions, get a job from somewhere else with better conditions or start your own company. Again, no one is Forcing you to stay there, but Unions ARE forcing their will.

Without the laws and unions there wouldn't BE any better choices of places to work. EVERY company would be awful, IMO.