San Francisco At It Again

[heypapajinx]

First of all, we're not talking about McDonalds and Wal-Mart. They can afford this and move on.

We're talking about the small business that the economy still depends on that cannot afford this.

are you kidding!
there are plenty of BIG companies that don't do payment for sick days.
there are also plenty of big companies that keep people who have worked there for years as half time so that they specifically DON'T have to pay for anything.

Most big companies do have sick days. Hell, I don't even oppose required sick days, but required PAID sick days is ridiculous.

and i don't think there's anything wrong with paying for a valuable employee when they are home ill. as long as they've EARNED the time.

 

[hippie_hunter]

are you kidding!
there are plenty of BIG companies that don't do payment for sick days.
there are also plenty of big companies that keep people who have worked there for years as half time so that they specifically DON'T have to pay for anything.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying that big companies do it. I'm saying that big companies can afford giving their employees sick days and move on without that much damage to their finances. It's the small businesses that can't afford it and that is where the debate stems from.

 

[heypapajinx]

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying that big companies do it. I'm saying that big companies can afford giving their employees sick days and move on without that much damage to their finances. It's the small businesses that can't afford it and that is where the debate stems from.

i can understand that, but then again, the government COULD even step into that debate if they wanted to and start offering more aid to small businesses and companies if it was that concerned.
but the truth is, they want the small businesses to fail, the big corporations is where all the moneys at.
but i do think that employees that work for anybusiness, whether small or large should be able to earn sick leave, no matter what.

 

[hippie_hunter]

i can understand that, but then again, the government COULD even step into that debate if they wanted to and start offering more aid to small businesses and companies if it was that concerned.
but the truth is, they want the small businesses to fail, the big corporations is where all the moneys at.
but i do think that employees that work for anybusiness, whether small or large should be able to earn sick leave, no matter what.

They don't want the small businesses to fail because the economy is still very dependent on small businesses and small businesses are the largest source of employment in this nation.

It's why the minimum wage bill failed in the Senate, due to it's lack of aid to small business.

San Fransisco doesn't represent the entire nation. It's apparent that the government ignores the fact that business owners have rights too and they apply high costs onto them with a minimum wage over $9.00 and now this without offering aid to help lessen the impact of the costs.

 

[heypapajinx]

They don't want the small businesses to fail because the economy is still very dependent on small businesses and small businesses are the largest source of employment in this nation.

It's why the minimum wage bill failed in the Senate, due to it's lack of aid to small business.

San Fransisco doesn't represent the entire nation. It's apparent that the government ignores the fact that business owners have rights too and they apply high costs onto them with a minimum wage over $9.00 and now this without offering aid to help lessen the impact of the costs.

all i can go by is what i see in local areas, and small businesses have closed down like wildfire spreading in my local city and also in surrounding cities.
and while that is happening, big businesses are buying up all their land and hiring employees for lower and lower wages and then putting their employees on as part time so they don't have to cover ****.
i know that many small business owners have complained here, actually taken it to our capital during legislative sessions and asked the government to aid them and restrict the growth of big businesses and get denied again and again.
that shows to me that the government is more interested in the big money that corporations bring in and really could give a **** about small family owned businesses.
and if the government is so concerned about the treatment of the population as employees i can't help but wonder why there aren't more restictions on outsourcing to try and keep the work here to boost our own economy.

 

[hippie_hunter]

all i can go by is what i see in local areas, and small businesses have closed down like wildfire spreading in my local city and also in surrounding cities.
and while that is happening, big businesses are buying up all their land and hiring employees for lower and lower wages and then putting their employees on as part time so they don't have to cover ****.
i know that many small business owners have complained here, actually taken it to our capital during legislative sessions and asked the government to aid them and restrict the growth of big businesses and get denied again and again.
that shows to me that the government is more interested in the big money that corporations bring in and really could give a **** about small family owned businesses.
and if the government is so concerned about the treatment of the population as employees i can't help but wonder why there aren't more restictions on outsourcing to try and keep the work here to boost our own economy.

It's not the government, it's the economy. The way this economy is, big businesses have an unfairly large advantage over small businesses, for the reasons you stated, big businesses make more money.

 

[heypapajinx]

It's not the government, it's the economy. The way this economy is, big businesses have an unfairly large advantage over small businesses, for the reasons you stated, big businesses make more money.

but you're telling me that the government can't to anything to aid or restrict certian things?
that's bull.
if they can regulate the social security funds, expand and restore industry in times of economic downfall, control taxes, regulate banks, and offer relief to small businesses, they in fact control the economy. not the other way around.
they change import and export taxes all the time to counter effect the negative economic effects of surplus and deficit that in turn effects the entire country's economy, you mean to tell me that they can't in turn limit big business or at least offer aid to small ones as they have done in the past?

 

[StorminNorman]

but you're telling me that the government can't to anything to aid or restrict certian things?
that's bull.
if they can regulate the social security funds, expand and restore industry in times of economic downfall, control taxes, regulate banks, and offer relief to small businesses, they in fact control the economy. not the other way around.
they change import and export taxes all the time to counter effect the negative economic effects of surplus and deficit that in turn effects the entire country's economy, you mean to tell me that they can't in turn limit big business or at least offer aid to small ones as they have done in the past?

I dont WANT Government doing anything to restrict business. THAT IS BAD! I want a free market. I want capitalism to be allowed to blossom. That is why America has the most advance health care in the world. It is why our schools suck - the government has way to much control.

 

[hippie_hunter]

but you're telling me that the government can't to anything to aid or restrict certian things?
that's bull.
if they can regulate the social security funds, expand and restore industry in times of economic downfall, control taxes, regulate banks, and offer relief to small businesses, they in fact control the economy. not the other way around.
they change import and export taxes all the time to counter effect the negative economic effects of surplus and deficit that in turn effects the entire country's economy, you mean to tell me that they can't in turn limit big business or at least offer aid to small ones as they have done in the past?

I'm a person who beleives in as little government as possible. I beleive that the government should rarely intervene with the affairs of small business and provide aid only when government is the cause of the increase in costs (such as increasing minimum wage, etc).

It's just the way capitalism works. People like going to the bigger companies more because they offer a bigger selection, lower prices, and at times, better service. Suppliers support bigger business by giving them more at lower prices because bigger business can give them more money. It's not government that is doing this. It's the natural cycle of capitalism where government doesn't have the right to stick it's nose in.

 

[heypapajinx]

it sounds like both of you are advocating the growth of big business, then why the hell are you complaining about how little businesses are going to fail due to the raise in minimum wage and paid leave?

 

[Mr Sparkle]

I dont WANT Government doing anything to restrict business. THAT IS BAD! I want a free market. I want capitalism to be allowed to blossom. That is why America has the most advance health care in the world. It is why our schools suck - the government has way to much control.

yeah, the wordwide monopolies by the super companies that stiffle growth for any and all competing business is non-existant because the governement has too much control

worker's rights are a basic need there dude.

just a little tidbit of info I thought I should share with you.

 

[Addendum]

How is paid sick days a "worker's right"

 

[Mr Sparkle]

How is paid sick days a "worker's right"

how is it not?

 

[heypapajinx]

How is paid sick days a "worker's right"

then how do you explain workmans comp?
as a fault in the system?

 

[Addendum]

how is it not?

Why should someone get credit for something they didn't do?

It's like a student being sick on the day of a test. Instead of having to take the test when they return to class, the student instead gets a passing grade on the test and doesn't have to worry about making it up.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Why should someone get credit for something they didn't do?

It's like a student being sick on the day of a test. Instead of having to take the test when they return to class, the student instead gets a passing grade on the test and doesn't have to worry about making it up.

I don't think it's about "credit" I think it's about the fact that businesses big and small depend on their employees and viceversa.
why are people sooooo afraid of this. it makes perfect sense seriously.
I don't see how this benefit really hurts the company if it's small, or even large. in the case of big companies, people get sick and go to work sick in order to not miss that paycheck, they end up spreading the disease around and getting others sick who would've never fell ill where it not FOR the fact that they went to work.
but THEY should lose money for being punctual and dedicated?
nah.
the student comparison is immaterial.

 

[heypapajinx]

Why should someone get credit for something they didn't do?

It's like a student being sick on the day of a test. Instead of having to take the test when they return to class, the student instead gets a passing grade on the test and doesn't have to worry about making it up.

i would say it's more like a student doing extra credit throughout the entire year so that way if and when they do miss the test they already have the bonus to make up for it.

 

[Addendum]

I don't think it's about "credit" I think it's about the fact that businesses big and small depend on their employees and viceversa.
why are people sooooo afraid of this. it makes perfect sense seriously.
I don't see how this benefit really hurts the company if it's small, or even large. in the case of big companies, people get sick and go to work sick in order to not miss that paycheck, they end up spreading the disease around and getting others sick who would've never fell ill where it not FOR the fact that they went to work.
but THEY should lose money for being punctual and dedicated?
nah.
the student comparison is immaterial.

At a job, you're paid to work. How are you working when you're at home with a cold, or puking everything you've eaten and drank until you're just puking stomach acid because you have the flu?

I'm not saying show up to work and bring your trash can with you and in between helping customers you throw up that little mouthful of crushed ice you got during a slow spell.

It's not losing money for being punctual and dedicated. It's simply when you're not at your job, you are not working.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone comes along and says "Employees should also get paid for the work of other shifts. So if you work the 8-5 shift, you also get paid for the work done on the overnight shift as well." Then they'll ask, "What was that sound?'

And then I'll say "That's the sound of common sense killing itself"

 

[Mr Sparkle]

At a job, you're paid to work. How are you working when you're at home with a cold, or puking everything you've eaten and drank until you're just puking stomach acid because you have the flu?

I'm not saying show up to work and bring your trash can with you and in between helping customers you throw up that little mouthful of crushed ice you got during a slow spell.

It's not losing money for being punctual and dedicated. It's simply when you're not at your job, you are not working.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone comes along and says "Employees should also get paid for the work of other shifts. So if you work the 8-5 shift, you also get paid for the work done on the overnight shift as well." Then they'll ask, "What was that sound?'

And then I'll say "That's the sound of common sense killing itself"

so, you're comparing getting paid for sick days, you know, sick days, they're not even that common. to getting paid for work that's not even done during your shift?
hey how about work done in other companies by other people.
common sense didn't kill itself.
your incompatible comparisons killed it in a deserted forest, they shot it in the stomach and left it to die.

 

[heypapajinx]

I wouldn't be surprised if someone comes along and says "Employees should also get paid for the work of other shifts. So if you work the 8-5 shift, you also get paid for the work done on the overnight shift as well." Then they'll ask, "What was that sound?'

And then I'll say "That's the sound of common sense killing itself"

that... doesn't make any sense.

 

[Kritish]

Mom and pop stores are owned by individuals. You sound like an idiot. People like you are the reason small businesses can't stay open, but you're also the *******s picketting Wal-Mart for driving everyone out of business.

Small businesses should be prepared for raises in minimum wage and conpensating for their sick workers. If they can't, they shouldn't be in business.

 

[hippie_hunter]

it sounds like both of you are advocating the growth of big business, then why the hell are you complaining about how little businesses are going to fail due to the raise in minimum wage and paid leave?

I advocate the growth of all business. However, I'm not particularly advocating big business in this thread. I just simply beleive that the government should stick not stick it's nose in the economy.

I think that it is unfair that the government of San Fransisco ignores the fact that employers have rights also. I think that it is unfair that the government of San Fransisco is increasing labor costs without compensation. I think that it is unfair that small businesses have to deal with such things that they cannot afford due to a mandate from the government. It hinders the growth of business and the national economy is still dependent on small business.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Small businesses should be prepared for raises in minimum wage and conpensating for their sick workers. If they can't, they shouldn't be in business.

It's not that damn simple. If they could, they probally would. The fact is that small businesses are facing very tough competition from places like Wal-Mart and Wegmans and Rite Aid.

 

[StorminNorman]

yeah, the wordwide monopolies by the super companies that stiffle growth for any and all competing business is non-existant because the governement has too much control

worker's rights are a basic need there dude.

just a little tidbit of info I thought I should share with you.

Worker's rights are needed - however they should be regulated by the industry. If a company wants the best workers - they will offer the best benefits. If a company couldn't care less about what they hire - their business will suffer. It pays for them to take care of the people that take care of them.

 

[sinewave]

I advocate the growth of all business. However, I'm not particularly advocating big business in this thread. I just simply beleive that the government should stick not stick it's nose in the economy.

I think that it is unfair that the government of San Fransisco ignores the fact that employers have rights also. I think that it is unfair that the government of San Fransisco is increasing labor costs without compensation. I think that it is unfair that small businesses have to deal with such things that they cannot afford due to a mandate from the government. It hinders the growth of business and the national economy is still dependent on small business.

with the extremely high cost of living in sf, you'd have to have some serious capital to even think about opening your own business there. if they've got enough money for that then they can afford to give their employees a few sick days a year, like maybe limiting them to 5 a year. doesn't seem like it would bankrupt the businesses that way.