Discussion: Global Warming and Other Environmental Issues

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The planet is now so vandalized that only total renewable energy can save us
George Monbiot, The Guardian

George Bush is behaving like a furious defaulter whose home is about to be repossessed. Smashing the porcelain, ripping the doors off their hinges, he is determined that there will be nothing worth owning by the time the bastards kick him out. His midnight regulations, opening America's wilderness to logging and mining, trashing pollution controls, tearing up conservation laws, will do almost as much damage in the last 60 days of his presidency as he achieved in the foregoing 3,000.

His backers - among them the nastiest pollutocrats in America - are calling in their favours. But this last binge of vandalism is also the Bush presidency reduced to its essentials. Destruction is not an accidental product of its ideology. Destruction is the ideology. Neoconservatism is power expressed by showing that you can reduce any part of the world to rubble.

If it is too late to prevent runaway climate change, the Bush team must carry much of the blame. His wilful trashing of the Middle Climate - the interlude of benign temperatures which allowed human civilisation to flourish - makes the mass murder he engineered in Iraq only the second of his crimes against humanity. Bush has waged his war on science with the same obtuse determination with which he has waged his war on terror.

Is it too late? To say so is to make it true. To suggest there is nothing that can be done is to ensure that nothing is done. But even a resolute optimist like me finds hope ever harder to summon. A new summary of the science published since last year's Intergovernmental Panel report suggests that - almost a century ahead of schedule - the critical climate processes might have begun.

Just a year ago the Intergovernmental Panel warned that the Arctic's "late-summer sea ice is projected to disappear almost completely towards the end of the 21st century ... in some models." But, as the new report by the Public Interest Research Centre (Pirc) shows, climate scientists are now predicting the end of late-summer sea ice within three to seven years. The trajectory of current melting plummets through the graphs like a meteorite falling to earth.

Forget the sodding polar bears: this is about all of us. As the ice disappears, the region becomes darker, which means that it absorbs more heat. A recent paper published in Geophysical Research Letters shows that the extra warming caused by disappearing sea ice penetrates 1,000 miles inland, covering almost the entire region of continuous permafrost. Arctic permafrost contains twice as much carbon as the entire global atmosphere. It remains safe for as long as the ground stays frozen. But the melting has begun. Methane gushers are now gassing out of some places with such force that they keep the water open in Arctic lakes through the winter.

The effects of melting permafrost are not incorporated in any global climate models. Runaway warming in the Arctic alone could flip the entire planet into a new climatic state. The Middle Climate could collapse faster and sooner than the grimmest forecasts proposed.

Barack Obama's speech to the US climate summit last week was an astonishing development. It shows that, in this respect at least, there really is a prospect of profound political change in America. But while he described a workable plan for dealing with the problem perceived by the Earth Summit of 1992, the measures he proposes are hopelessly out of date. The science has moved on. The events the Earth Summit and the Kyoto process were supposed to have prevented are already beginning. Thanks to the wrecking tactics of Bush the elder, Clinton (and Gore) and Bush the younger, steady, sensible programmes of the kind that Obama proposes are now irrelevant. As the Pirc report suggests, the years of sabotage and procrastination have left us with only one remaining shot: a crash programme of total energy replacement.

A paper by the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research shows that if we are to give ourselves a roughly even chance of preventing more than two degrees of warming, global emissions from energy must peak by 2015 and decline by between 6% and 8% per year from 2020 to 2040, leading to a complete decarbonisation of the global economy soon after 2050. Even this programme would work only if some optimistic assumptions about the response of the biosphere hold true. Delivering a high chance of preventing two degrees of warming would mean cutting global emissions by more than 8% a year.

Is this possible? Is this acceptable? The Tyndall paper points out that annual emission cuts greater than 1% have "been associated only with economic recession or upheaval". When the Soviet Union collapsed, emissions fell by some 5% a year. But you can answer these questions only by considering the alternatives. The trajectory both Barack Obama and Gordon Brown have proposed - an 80% cut by 2050 - means reducing emissions by an average of 2% a year. This programme, the figures in the Tyndall paper suggest, is likely to commit the world to at least four or five degrees of warming, which means the likely collapse of human civilisation across much of the planet. Is this acceptable?

The costs of a total energy replacement and conservation plan would be astronomical, the speed improbable. But the governments of the rich nations have already deployed a scheme like this for another purpose. A survey by the broadcasting network CNBC suggests that the US federal government has now spent $4.2 trillion in response to the financial crisis, more than the total spending on the second world war when adjusted for inflation. Do we want to be remembered as the generation that saved the banks and let the biosphere collapse?

This approach is challenged by the American thinker Sharon Astyk. In an interesting new essay, she points out that replacing the world's energy infrastructure involves "an enormous front-load of fossil fuels", which are required to manufacture wind turbines, electric cars, new grid connections, insulation and all the rest. This could push us past the climate tipping point. Instead, she proposes, we must ask people "to make short term, radical sacrifices", cutting our energy consumption by 50%, with little technological assistance, in five years.

There are two problems: the first is that all previous attempts show that relying on voluntary abstinence does not work. The second is that a 10% annual cut in energy consumption while the infrastructure remains mostly unchanged means a 10% annual cut in total consumption: a deeper depression than the modern world has ever experienced. No political system - even an absolute monarchy - could survive an economic collapse on this scale.

She is right about the risks of a technological green new deal, but these are risks we have to take. Astyk's proposals travel far into the realm of wishful thinking. Even the technological new deal I favour inhabits the distant margins of possibility.

Can we do it? Search me. Reviewing the new evidence, I have to admit that we might have left it too late. But there is another question I can answer more easily. Can we afford not to try? No, we can't.
 
The idea of now "saving" our environment (or reversing damage) isn't realistic. At best we can reduce the damage we do from here on out.
 
The price of dissent on global warming
David Bellamy


WHEN I first stuck my head above the parapet to say I didn't believe what we were being told about global warming, I had no idea what the consequences would be. I am a scientist and I have to follow the directions of science, but when I see that the truth is being covered up I have to voice my opinions.

According to official data, in every year since 1998, world temperatures have been getting colder, and in 2002 Arctic ice actually increased. Why, then, do we not hear about that? The sad fact is that since I said I didn't believe human beings caused global warming, I've not been allowed to make a television program.

My absence has been noticed, because wherever I go I meet people who say: "I grew up with you on the television, where are you now?"

It was in 1996 that I criticised wind farms while appearing on children's program Blue Peter, and I also had an article published in which I described global warming as poppycock. The truth is, I didn't think wind farms were an effective means of alternative energy, so I said so. Back then, at the BBC you had to toe the line, and I wasn't doing that.

At that point, I was still making loads of TV programs and I was enjoying it greatly. Then I suddenly found I was sending in ideas for TV shows and they weren't getting taken up. I've asked around about why I've been ignored, but I found that people didn't get back to me. At the beginning of this year there was a BBC show with four experts saying: "This is going to be the end of all the ice in the Arctic," and hypothesising that it was going to be the hottest summer ever. Was it hell! It was very cold and very wet and now we've seen evidence that the glaciers in Alaska have started growing rapidly, and they have not grown for a long time.

I've seen evidence, which I believe, that says there has not been a rise in global temperature since 1998, despite the increase in carbon dioxide being pumped into the atmosphere. This makes me think the global warmers are telling lies: CO2 is not the driver. The idiot fringe has accused me of being like a Holocaust denier, which is ludicrous. Climate change is all about cycles. It's a natural thing and has always happened. When the Romans lived in Britain they were growing very good red grapes and making wine on the borders of Scotland. It was evidently a lot warmer.

If you were sitting next to me 10,000 years ago, we'd be under ice. So thank God for global warming for ending that ice age; we wouldn't be here otherwise.

People such as former American vice-president Al Gore say that millions of us will die because of global warming, which I think is a pretty stupid thing to say if you've got no proof. And my opinion is that there is absolutely no proof that CO2 has anything to do with any impending catastrophe. The science has, quite simply, gone awry.

In fact, it's not even science any more; it's anti-science.

There's no proof, it's just projections, and if you look at the models people such as Gore use, you can see they cherry-pick the ones that support their beliefs. To date, the way the so-called Greens and the BBC, the Royal Society and even political parties have handled this smacks of McCarthyism at its worst.

Global warming is part of a natural cycle and there's nothing we can actually do to stop these cycles. The world is now facing spending a vast amount of money in tax to try to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist.

And how were we convinced that this problem exists, even though all the evidence from measurements goes against the fact? God knows. Yes, the lakes in Africa are drying up. But that's not global warming. They're drying up for the very simple reason that most of them have dams around them.

So the water once used by local people is now used in the production of cut flowers and vegetables for the supermarkets of Europe. One of Gore's biggest clangers was saying that the Aral Sea in Uzbekistan was drying up because of global warming.

Well, everyone knows, because it was all over the news 20 years ago, that the Russians were growing cotton there at the time and that for every tonne of cotton you produce you use a vast amount of water. The thing that annoys me most is that there are genuine environmental problems that desperately require attention. I'm still an environmentalist, I'm still a Green and I'm still campaigning to stop the destruction of the biodiversity of the world. But money will be wasted on trying to solve this global warming "problem" that I would much rather was used for looking after the people of the world. Being ignored by the likes of the BBC does not really bother me, not when there are bigger problems at stake.

I might not be on TV any more but I still go around the world campaigning about these important issues. For example, we must stop the destruction of tropical rainforests, something I've been saying for 35 years.

Mother nature will balance things out, but not if we interfere by destroying rainforests and overfishing the seas. That is where the real environmental catastrophe could occur.

David Bellamy is a botanist, author of 35 books, and has presented 400 television programs
 
David Bellamy's argument is proven worthless the moment he mentions that Arctic ice increased in 2002. The Northwest Passage was opened up for the first time in modern history last year because the arctic ice sheet melted. Scientific models show that the entire ice sheet could melt by 2010. Maybe he should do some research on modern climate trends if he hopes to be taken seriously?
 
As a side note, how do we try and minimize climate change without causing international incidents? The Chinese and Indians dont seem particularly interested in going green and I see there is a new Animal Planet TV show called Whale Wars. The premise is that a Greenpeace style group confronts Japanese whaling ships in Antarctic waters, to prevent whale harvesting. Apparently they exchange gun fire and so on.

So its not just that some nations are unconvinced about global warming, its that they are indifferent. How do we handle situations like that?
 
The Chinese government recently passed legislation which would reduce the country's overall environmental impact by cutting coal plants and promoting energy-efficient vehicles in its cities. This was done after the world scoffed at the idea of letting Beijing-- the most disgusting city on the planet, in my opinion-- host the Olympic games due to its hazardous air quality. The problem is, China doesn't have the technology or financial apparatus to get where they need to be environmentally.

India is also starting to "go green." The problem, of course, is that their population is booming and their middle class is growing, so they need to cut corners on environmental protections to ensure economic stability. Once again, they lack the financial means to achieve true environmental sustainability.

So... how do these countries pay for these technologies? How do they "go green"?

There's this country we call "The United States of America." It used to be a land of resources and innovation. It built the railroad and automobile industries. It wired the Information Technology revolution. And now, it is crumbling financially, as its domestic industries are falling apart due to the globalized economy.

The United States has proposed pouring hundreds of billions of dollars into failed industries, and who knows if those bailout packaged will actually work. But if the United States poured hundreds of billions into a green stimulus package which created green collar jobs and built an expansive, energy-efficient infrastructure, then it could return to the beacon of economic success it once was. It can become a true global leader on climate change.

How does this factor into China and India? Well, we can sell them our green technologies in exchange for a variety of benefits. That's what we did with the automobile industry, that's what we did with the IT industry. That's what we should be doing with our green collar economy.

The problem isn't that these countries are indifferent about climate change. It's that their economic situations overshadow the climate change issue. But if the United States became a global leader, we could theoretically promote and sell energy-efficient solutions abroad... helping the planet, and making a nice profit in return...
 
As a side note, how do we try and minimize climate change without causing international incidents? The Chinese and Indians dont seem particularly interested in going green and I see there is a new Animal Planet TV show called Whale Wars. The premise is that a Greenpeace style group confronts Japanese whaling ships in Antarctic waters, to prevent whale harvesting. Apparently they exchange gun fire and so on.

So its not just that some nations are unconvinced about global warming, its that they are indifferent. How do we handle situations like that?

Those people are idiots and pirates. The most they'll accomplish is getting themselves killed.

Of course, that's just me, and I'm notorious for not "understanding" environmentalism.
 
Those people are idiots and pirates. The most they'll accomplish is getting themselves killed.

Of course, that's just me, and I'm notorious for not "understanding" environmentalism.
I don't really think it's all that idiotic...if anything, they need to keep an eye on what the Japanese are actually killing, because it's been determined in the past that they have broken international laws during these whaling activities.

The whole interfering thing is noble (but kinda stupid), but I think that they'd be more wise to hang back a bit and just WATCH them and what they kill.
 
David Bellamy's argument is proven worthless the moment he mentions that Arctic ice increased in 2002. The Northwest Passage was opened up for the first time in modern history last year because the arctic ice sheet melted. Scientific models show that the entire ice sheet could melt by 2010. Maybe he should do some research on modern climate trends if he hopes to be taken seriously?
It doesn't help that he's a botanist, either....
 
I don't really think it's all that idiotic...if anything, they need to keep an eye on what the Japanese are actually killing, because it's been determined in the past that they have broken international laws during these whaling activities.

The whole interfering thing is noble (but kinda stupid), but I think that they'd be more wise to hang back a bit and just WATCH them and what they kill.

Not a bad idea. Get their activities on tape and then show it to the world, after the whaling companies publicly deny any wrong doing, of course.
 
I forget exactly when (it was within the last decade, if I recall), a guy named Scott Baker was granted access to tissue samples from whales killed by the Japanese on one of these expeditions.

For those who don't know, the Japanese claim to be hunting Minke whales...the most abundant baleen whale on the planet (and, perhaps not coincidentally, the smallest).

Well, Baker got a hotel room, and since he didn't have access to a lab and was forbidden from leaving the country with said tissue samples, he set up a mini-lab in his hotel room and performed genetic analysis on the samples. He found that some of the flesh was from Blue Whales, Humpbacks, etc.

How the Japanese are still allowed to do this **** is beyond me. :dry:
 
I don't really think it's all that idiotic...if anything, they need to keep an eye on what the Japanese are actually killing, because it's been determined in the past that they have broken international laws during these whaling activities.

The whole interfering thing is noble (but kinda stupid), but I think that they'd be more wise to hang back a bit and just WATCH them and what they kill.

It's idiotic because they're not only boarding and harassing ships that are much larger than theirs (nevermind the very real possibility that the whaling crews are armed), but they're also flying pirate colors, in a time where piracy has become an international concern.

I forget exactly when (it was within the last decade, if I recall), a guy named Scott Baker was granted access to tissue samples from whales killed by the Japanese on one of these expeditions.

For those who don't know, the Japanese claim to be hunting Minke whales...the most abundant baleen whale on the planet (and, perhaps not coincidentally, the smallest).

Well, Baker got a hotel room, and since he didn't have access to a lab and was forbidden from leaving the country with said tissue samples, he set up a mini-lab in his hotel room and performed genetic analysis on the samples. He found that some of the flesh was from Blue Whales, Humpbacks, etc.

How the Japanese are still allowed to do this **** is beyond me. :dry:

I know I'm an oddity, and have an outside opinion, but as much as I care about animals, none of this really worries me. The Japanese are going to fish out whatever species they will, and there's really nothing we can do about it. It's messed up that they're breaking international law, but in the case of these "Whale Wars",they're the victims more than the bad guys.
 
I know I'm an oddity, and have an outside opinion, but as much as I care about animals, none of this really worries me. The Japanese are going to fish out whatever species they will, and there's really nothing we can do about it. It's messed up that they're breaking international law, but in the case of these "Whale Wars",they're the victims more than the bad guys.

Not hardly. There is a gray area, but I wouldnt call them victims. They broke the law. Period.
 
Not hardly. There is a gray area, but I wouldnt call them victims. They broke the law. Period.

They're still doing what they need to to feed themselves and their families. I hate to say it, (and regarding my personal views on global human over-population and the various species of animals that inhabit the Earth, it surprises even me) but we should value our species more than others.

That's not to say that we shouldn't make efforts to help the other species, or that it's excusable to break the law, but when weighing the welfare of humans (especially poor humans) vs. the welfare of whales, I'd have to side with my own species.
 
Of course, without many species of whales, the entire oceanic ecosystem could be thrown out of whack... that's what has been happening with fishing expeditions in Antarctica... Penguins, whales, other fish species have been dying out because these fish are being taken away from them en masse...
 
Of course, without many species of whales, the entire oceanic ecosystem could be thrown out of whack... that's what has been happening with fishing expeditions in Antarctica... Penguins, whales, other fish species have been dying out because these fish are being taken away from them en masse...

Yes, but with the way nature works, that niche that those species had filled will be filled again by another species. The Earth's ecosystem has weathered the extinction of roughly 90% of all lifeforms that ever lived, it will weather the loss of more.

I understand the idea behind conservationalism. I would be upset if tigers, pandas, elephants, rhinos, frogs, whales, and others all went extinct within my lifespan, but the ecosystem will endure, and we as a species are advanced enough to endure it as well.
 
Super Ferret said:
They're still doing what they need to to feed themselves and their families. I hate to say it, (and regarding my personal views on global human over-population and the various species of animals that inhabit the Earth, it surprises even me) but we should value our species more than others.

That's not to say that we shouldn't make efforts to help the other species, or that it's excusable to break the law, but when weighing the welfare of humans (especially poor humans) vs. the welfare of whales, I'd have to side with my own species.
What do we as a species gain from this? Is this honestly your argument? What the hell does valuing our own species have to do with unnecessarily killing some of the rarest and most intelligent creatures on this planet?

The argument is weak. In fact, it's ridiculous.
 
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Yes, but with the way nature works, that niche that those species had filled will be filled again by another species. The Earth's ecosystem has weathered the extinction of roughly 90% of all lifeforms that ever lived, it will weather the loss of more.

I understand the idea behind conservationalism. I would be upset if tigers, pandas, elephants, rhinos, frogs, whales, and others all went extinct within my lifespan, but the ecosystem will endure, and we as a species are advanced enough to endure it as well.
Technically, you're right, but I think you fail to grasp the full gravity of ecological instability.

Yes, it will eventually fall back into a (perhaps shifted) equilibrium. Yeah, the world will go on. But do you have any clue as to how long that will take, or the potential for turmoil in the meantime?

You talk about valuing our own species over all others, yet you don't understand the elementary concept that all we're doing by altering this ecological balance is hurting ourselves in the long-run. Interesting.
 
Technically, you're right, but I think you fail to grasp the full gravity of ecological instability.

Yes, it will eventually fall back into a (perhaps shifted) equilibrium. Yeah, the world will go on. But do you have any clue as to how long that will take, or the potential for turmoil in the meantime?

You talk about valuing our own species over all others, yet you don't understand the elementary concept that all we're doing by altering this ecological balance is hurting ourselves in the long-run. Interesting.

I understand that it could hurt humanity in the long-run, but we're also advanced enough to weather that turmoil.

Realistically, our species is going to cause extinctions, and yes, it'll eventually bite us in the ass, but that's still completely unavoidable. It's what comes with being the apex predator that we are. We'll never be in harmony with the environment, because the environment itself is not at harmony. It's constantly shifting and changing, and we've really got to just look out for ourselves over the other species, no matter how rare or intelligent they may be.

Going on to answer your previous questions, yes, that is honestly my argument. None of those whalers are wholly evil murderers, they're men with jobs that earn them a living. They are not rich men, but blue-collared guys who likely don't have any other options. Our species as a whole gains nothing from their actions as whalers, but they themselves do gain from it.
 
I understand that it could hurt humanity in the long-run, but we're also advanced enough to weather that turmoil.

Realistically, our species is going to cause extinctions, and yes, it'll eventually bite us in the ass, but that's still completely unavoidable. It's what comes with being the apex predator that we are. We'll never be in harmony with the environment, because the environment itself is not at harmony. It's constantly shifting and changing, and we've really got to just look out for ourselves over the other species, no matter how rare or intelligent they may be.

Going on to answer your previous questions, yes, that is honestly my argument. None of those whalers are wholly evil murderers, they're men with jobs that earn them a living. They are not rich men, but blue-collared guys who likely don't have any other options. Our species as a whole gains nothing from their actions as whalers, but they themselves do gain from it.
Sorry, but that's still a weak justification. It's a job that's completely unnecessary and shouldn't exist to begin with. Wanting to protect those animals is NOT putting them above us with respect to priority, as you seem to claim.

The bolded portion is just....wow. I don't even know what to say to that. How is THIS unavoidable?
 
I understand that it could hurt humanity in the long-run, but we're also advanced enough to weather that turmoil.
as a species we probably would survive almost anything, but any major environmental disaster would not doubt endanger the lives of millions of people, let alone the countless other sentient animals it could needlessly kill. I am sadened by your self interested focus only on our species, but even in self interested terms environmental protection is in our best interests as a species.

Realistically, our species is going to cause extinctions, and yes, it'll eventually bite us in the ass, but that's still completely unavoidable. It's what comes with being the apex predator that we are. We'll never be in harmony with the environment, because the environment itself is not at harmony.
as a former hobby ecologist (a couple of years at uni on the subject - but qualification in a different area) I would suggest you examine predator-prey relationships more closely - all that have evolved together flutuate to correspond with the available resources, the predator relies on the prey for a food source, and teh prey rellies on the predator to keep it's numbers down so it doesn't exhaust it's own food source, so both species survive... sounds pretty harmonious to me. extinctions occur due to the introduction or withdrawl of some elements into their ecosystem.
Managing ecosytems makes the majority of extinctions avoidable (provided the proper techniques and fundings are supplied)

Going on to answer your previous questions, yes, that is honestly my argument. None of those whalers are wholly evil murderers, they're men with jobs that earn them a living. They are not rich men, but blue-collared guys who likely don't have any other options. Our species as a whole gains nothing from their actions as whalers, but they themselves do gain from it.
that doesn't make their actions moralyy virtuous in any way. If a blue collar worker was gassing jews in the second world war you'd hardly be excusing his behaviour on the basis that he was just doing his job would you? i apologfise for using such a hyperbolic statement, but it highlights the fact that although someone may honestly derive economic benefit from an action, and they would not be able too if we prohibited that action, it is not an excuse not to prohibit that action. I hate to sound like an economic rationalist, but other jobs can be provided.
 
I'm trying to work out the effects of removing baleen whales on trophic cascades in my head...

Krill (zooplankton) populations increase.

Phytoplankton populations decrease.

Zooplankton populations crash?

Fish populations crash.

It's hard to work through without knowing relative abundances and without factoring in all predatory influences (fish). Mysticetes eat a lot, but their relative abundance is low. I know there will be an effect, but I'm at a loss for the magnitude. Yay ecology!
 
Sorry, but that's still a weak justification. It's a job that's completely unnecessary and shouldn't exist to begin with. Wanting to protect those animals is NOT putting them above us with respect to priority, as you seem to claim.

I never claimed that we're putting the whales above us, or that we should or shouldn't. This has gotten out of hand and away from my original intention of voicing my questioning/non-support of the extreme tactics of the "Whale Wars" guys.

The bolded portion is just....wow. I don't even know what to say to that. How is THIS unavoidable?

THIS is the fact that our species is the top predator in the world and like the other species in our position in the past, we'll likely cause, or at least have a hand in, the extinctions of multiple other species. THAT is unavoidable.

as a species we probably would survive almost anything, but any major environmental disaster would not doubt endanger the lives of millions of people, let alone the countless other sentient animals it could needlessly kill. I am sadened by your self interested focus only on our species, but even in self interested terms environmental protection is in our best interests as a species.

I'll admit this right off the bat, I've been mixing big picture and detail views in my previous arguments, mostly to show how not everything is so cut and dry as it is frequently depicted to be. In the big picture, our species is all that matters when it comes down to it, not the individual millions of lives endangered (there're too many people anyway). I do not have a "self-interested focus" on humanity, trust me, given the average human, I dislike the species, but it is my own species, and in the interest of keeping myself and my family and friends well, I have to be pro-human some of the time. The bolded phrase interests me, as I've used a similar line in another thread to point out the hypocrasy of some of the overly vocal environmentalists, and was essentially told to keep my "negative" comments out of the thread.

as a former hobby ecologist (a couple of years at uni on the subject - but qualification in a different area) I would suggest you examine predator-prey relationships more closely - all that have evolved together flutuate to correspond with the available resources, the predator relies on the prey for a food source, and teh prey rellies on the predator to keep it's numbers down so it doesn't exhaust it's own food source, so both species survive... sounds pretty harmonious to me. extinctions occur due to the introduction or withdrawl of some elements into their ecosystem.
Managing ecosytems makes the majority of extinctions avoidable (provided the proper techniques and fundings are supplied)

The predator-prey relationship is a sort of harmony, yes, but it's still constantly in flux due to the daily additions and subtractions of various outside factors. The environment is constantly changing and whatever harmonies that are established are fragile, and can be broken by anything. (But we agree on that.)

And it is not our "job" to manage ecosystems or prevent extinctions, nor are any extinctions avoidable. Over 90% of the species that ever lived on this planet are extinct, and more join them yearly. Humanity hasn't changed anything there, nor will we be able to avoid our own end when it comes.

that doesn't make their actions moralyy virtuous in any way. If a blue collar worker was gassing jews in the second world war you'd hardly be excusing his behaviour on the basis that he was just doing his job would you? i apologfise for using such a hyperbolic statement, but it highlights the fact that although someone may honestly derive economic benefit from an action, and they would not be able too if we prohibited that action, it is not an excuse not to prohibit that action. I hate to sound like an economic rationalist, but other jobs can be provided.

I never called them morally virtuous, I merely pointed out that they are not the blackhearted, moustache-twirling villains that they are made out to be. To use your example (and to take it further), many of the Nazis willingly engaged in the methodical attempted genocide we call the Holocaust. None will argue that, nor would anyone say that they are not guilty of doing something wrong. However, (and I loathe to play Devil's Advocate here) they were still human, and not the soulless killers that many have attempted to make them out to be. My point was that man is not wholly good or evil and that there are always two sides to every story. The Whale Wars crew seems to only want to see one side. Perhaps they, or Greenpeace, could take efforts to find those whalers other, more whale friendly, professions, and take out the whaling industry in a safe, peaceful manner. As my original point was, taking on a much larger whaling boat in the dinghy that they have in a harrassing way is stupid and needlessly dangerous.
 
And it is not our "job" to manage ecosystems or prevent extinctions, nor are any extinctions avoidable.
Yes. There's no way to avoid extinctions that we cause. :dry:

dodo.jpg

:facepalm
 
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