Discussion: Global Warming and Other Environmental Issues

[Paradoxium]

The dam is cracking

The IPCC 2007 report claimed that global warming was leading to an increase in extreme weather, such as hurricanes and floods. Like its claims about the glaciers, this was also based on an unpublished report which had not been subject to scientific scrutiny — indeed several experts warned the IPCC not to rely on it.

The author, who didn’t actually finish his work until a year after the IPCC had used his research, has now repudiated what he sees has its misuse of his work.

His conclusion: “There is insufficient evidence to claim a statistical link between global warming and catastrophe loss.”​

Yet it was because of this — now unproved — link that the British government signed up to a $100 billion transfer from rich to poor countries to help them cope with a supposed increase in floods and hurricanes.

Now after Climate-gate, Glacier-gate and Hurricane-gate -- how many "gates" can one report contain? -- comes Amazon-gate. The IPCC claimed that up to 40% of the Amazonian forests were risk from global warming and would likely be replaced by "tropical savannas" if temperatures continued to rise.

This claim is backed up by a scientific-looking reference but on closer investigation turns out to be yet another non-peer reviewed piece of work from the WWF. Indeed the two authors are not even scientists or specialists on the Amazon: one is an Australian policy analyst, the other a freelance journalist for the Guardian and a green activist.

The WWF has yet to provide any scientific evidence that 40% of the Amazon is threatened by climate change -- as opposed to the relentless work of loggers and expansion of farms.

Every time I have questioned our politicians about global warming they have fallen back on the mantra that "2,500 scientists can't be wrong", referring to the vast numbers supposedly behind the IPCC consensus.

But it is now clear that the majority of those involved in the IPCC process are not scientists at all but politicians, bureaucrats, NGOs and green activists.

The sceptics may be about to get their first scalp. Rajendra Pachauri, the IPCC chairman often wrongly described in the media as the world’s leading climate scientist (he’s actually a railway engineer), at first attacked those who questioned the IPCC’s alarming glacier prediction as “arrogant” and believers in “voodoo science”.

He’s since had to retract the prediction but can’t quite manage an apology — and is now under mounting pressure in his Indian homeland to resign.

 

[Heretic]

America becoming a manufacturing nation is going to be a tough sell for anyone these days...american factories mean pollution, traffic, higher labor costs which mean higher prices for goods etc....everyone wants steak, but no one wants to slaughter the cow....

Despite what you hear, companies dont mind paying more for American workers...they do care about being subjected to insane demands from unions and ridiculous taxes. Most companies are willing to deal with paying extra for being in America and having products made by American's. You have to do something about unions and taxes though.

And a plant in America is infinitely cleaner than a plant in China. It's wierd how Global Warming supporters work to get industry out of the US, but never make any fuss over the fact that China allows all the pollution a company wants...it's as if China's pollution somehow doesn't affect the planet...or the Global Warming supporters are hypocrites that are actually working towards a completely different agenda.

 

[BlackLantern]

it's that mindset of "not in my backyard", im sure if you asked 10 people if they wanted an american made product, they'd say yes, but then tell them the factory is going in down the block and see how enthusiastic they are then

 

[A&W]

Despite what you hear, companies dont mind paying more for American workers.

LOL that's ridiculous. name one investor who doesn't like to save money and increase profits.

..they do care about being subjected to insane demands from unions and ridiculous taxes. Most companies are willing to deal with paying extra for being in America and having products made by American's. You have to do something about unions and taxes though.

wrong they like being able to sell in america. that's not the same thing.

Global Warming supporters

global warming supporters?

work to get industry out of the US, but never make any fuss over the fact that China allows all the pollution a company wants...it's as if China's pollution somehow doesn't affect the planet...or the Global Warming supporters are hypocrites that are actually working towards a completely different agenda.

I'm sick of China using America as an excuse for it's own inaction and I'm sick of America using China as an excuse for it's own inaction.

I do have to give credit to china though. Their pollution per person is signifigantly lower than ours. And unless the Obama administration hurries up well be getting our windmills and solar panels from China pretty soon.

 

[Heretic]

Sorry, supporters of the concept of Man Made Global Warming. The fact that you did not understand what I was saying without complete and total clarification is kind of silly.

And while every business likes to save money, you are wrong about their stance on America. Businesses do want quality, and it is viewed pretty universally that America will give you the best quality, but unions, taxes etc simply arent worth the effort/cost. By easing the issues here, and increasing the cost of importing to our incredibly mighty buying population, companies would gladly return.

 

[Heretic]

it's that mindset of "not in my backyard", im sure if you asked 10 people if they wanted an american made product, they'd say yes, but then tell them the factory is going in down the block and see how enthusiastic they are then

With the current state of unemployment, I dont know of any community that would turn down thousands of new jobs.

 

[A&W]

Sorry, supporters of the concept of Man Made Global Warming. The fact that you did not understand what I was saying without complete and total clarification is kind of silly.

And while every business likes to save money, you are wrong about their stance on America. Businesses do want quality, and it is viewed pretty universally that America will give you the best quality, but unions, taxes etc simply arent worth the effort/cost. By easing the issues here, and increasing the cost of importing to our incredibly mighty buying population, companies would gladly return.

none of tht is true

 

[Heretic]

And you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

If none of that is true then that means the following:

1. Either businesses do not want a quality product, or America does not produce a quality product, take your pick on which one you believe. I believe neither.

2. Taxes and and union issues ARE worth the time costs...

3. Low cost of operating overseas is not a factor in businesses moving overseas.

4. America is not a mighty purchasing engine.

 

[Kelly]

Ok guys, I understand the passion of your opinion here....but as I read through this debate, I see alot of..."you're wrong....", "you have no idea what you are talking about..." etc, how about PROVING YOUR POINT by giving strong EVIDENCE, rather than just calling the other person "wrong".

 

[A&W]

And you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

If none of that is true then that means the following:

1. Either businesses do not want a quality product, or America does not produce a quality product, take your pick on which one you believe. I believe neither.

2. Taxes and and union issues ARE worth the time costs...

3. Low cost of operating overseas is not a factor in businesses moving overseas.

4. America is not a mighty purchasing engine.

America is not considered the best in terms of producing vechicles, educating children, giving you the best deal on your health care, or giving you the most bang for your buck on labor costs. We import way more than we export.

Look you claim that employers don't mind paying higher wages for Americans. That is simply not reality. If I went up to my boss and said I'm sick of making minimum wage, I want a raise and Heretic told me you don't mind paying higher wages so here I am asking for it.

You know what they would say? They would say Heretic lied to you. They would say there a ton of applicants waiting for a phone call, who will gladly come do my work for minimum wage. I make five cents over.

All businesses want lower labor costs. Because of free trade businsses pay Chinese slaves 10 cents a day and then sell the product here in America.

America is a mighty purchase nation. We have the most wealth. That doesn't mean we produce the best goods for the lowest cost.

And what is with calling the scientists at NASA and every single climate agency from every single industrial nation in the entire world a bunch of hypocrites?

That was stupid. and why are you talking about it as if it's not true? do you have your own hubble telescope in orbit? do you have your own personal super weather simulator computer in your basement? do you have weather satelites?

 

[BlackLantern]

I do have a super weather simulator in my basement, and Im with you on the manufacturing stuff....why pay Americans when you can pay other coutries a 10th of the wages and still get the same thing??

 

[Heretic]

While I am sure that your boss would not give you a raise...my boss would certainly give me one. I have NEVER been turned down for a raise in my life. You know why? Because my quality is high...the companies I've worked for know that if I go somewhere else, they will lose market share. Corporations ARE willing to pay more for quality...but they are NOT willing to pay more for no increase in quality. Unions work to get the most pay for the least work...so that is a reason why companies would relocate.

Regarding global warming:

Every single climate scientist???? What about the hundreds of scientists refute global warming...the UN (where all of the scientists get their data) has been exposed as making up data, throwing other data out because it shows cooling...Global Warming is a theory that has no real proof behind it. (the real science shows we've been cooling for the past decade). There is no such thing as a true peer reviewed study on global warming, as anyone not on the payroll of the scam is not allowed to do a peer review.

 

[A&W]

I'm about to look into the U.N. stuff but there is a general consensus among meterologists that global warming is real. 2009 was one of the hottest years on record and the last decade was the hottest on record.

And I do perform good work. I work better and harder than most workers at my plant. It doesn't matter. They like low production costs. All businesses do.

All we need is trade regulation. Pointing the finger at unions is ridiculous. People deserve fair benefits and fair wages. What we need is trade regulation.

 

[Heretic]

The unions are a part of the problem, as are regulations and taxes...

The problem with meteorologists opinion is that they are all based on the same data...which has been proven to be fraudulent. I would say that they could look over the original data to get the REAL temps...but...OOPS...that was all destroyed by the climate scientists...all we have left are the "fixed" data, that removes cooling trends over the past few decades and inserts guesses that they think are probbaly happening instead.

 

[A&W]

Regarding global warming:

Every single climate scientist???? What about the hundreds of scientists refute global warming...the UN (where all of the scientists get their data) has been exposed as making up data, throwing other data out because it shows cooling...Global Warming is a theory that has no real proof behind it. (the real science shows we've been cooling for the past decade). There is no such thing as a true peer reviewed study on global warming, as anyone not on the payroll of the scam is not allowed to do a peer review.

I just wanted to provide this article for you to read on what happened.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35334428/ns/us_news-environment//

globabl warming is unfortanetely real. I was hoping going into this to find out that there was no rush to stop polluting. Yeah oil will run out, but when you take the environement out of the equation the situation becomes a lot less urgent.

Unfortunately global warming is still real and still with us. Unfortunately
2009 was one of the hottest ever recorded years and this last decade has been the hottest on record.

There are people out there spreading rumours that this decade has been a period of cooling. They are no better than the scientists who tried to exagerate the urgency of the situation.

And Government scientists had been complaining for years that there data and their reports were being edited, censored, and rewritten by the Bush administration to make it look like the earth wasn't warming as fast as it is.

The overwhelming majority of planetary and atmospheric scientists are in agreement that global warming is real. I think some people just don't care because they wont be alive long enough to witness the results.

There are others who out of devotion to ideology just want to say it isn't real because it makes them feel more justified in their own voting choices.

We actually have people like Beck and Hannity telling people that the snowstorms are proof that global warming isn't real. It's disgusting that people would put false information out there, whether it's a U.N. scientist or a journalist or even a blogger.

Here is the link

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35334428/ns/us_news-environment//

 

[Heretic]

I just wanted to provide this article for you to read on what happened.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35334428/ns/us_news-environment//

globabl warming is unfortanetely real. I was hoping going into this to find out that there was no rush to stop polluting. Yeah oil will run out, but when you take the environement out of the equation the situation becomes a lot less urgent.

Unfortunately global warming is still real and still with us. Unfortunately
2009 was one of the hottest ever recorded years and this last decade has been the hottest on record.

There are people out there spreading rumours that this decade has been a period of cooling. They are no better than the scientists who tried to exagerate the urgency of the situation.

And Government scientists had been complaining for years that there data and their reports were being edited, censored, and rewritten by the Bush administration to make it look like the earth wasn't warming as fast as it is.

The overwhelming majority of planetary and atmospheric scientists are in agreement that global warming is real. I think some people just don't care because they wont be alive long enough to witness the results.

There are others who out of devotion to ideology just want to say it isn't real because it makes them feel more justified in their own voting choices.

We actually have people like Beck and Hannity telling people that the snowstorms are proof that global warming isn't real. It's disgusting that people would put false information out there, whether it's a U.N. scientist or a journalist or even a blogger.

Here is the link

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35334428/ns/us_news-environment//

the evidence has been tampered with, and data destroyed. We have no idea what the truth is...

However, I REFUSE to trust the people who destroyed the evidence, and lied about the ice caps melting, and made up new fake data to show a warming trend. These people also refuse to accept NASA temperatures, because it shows a cooling over the past several years.

Again, the evidence has been tampered with beyond belief...there is no way to tell for sure what the real evidence is...so we dont know what the truth is.

 

[A&W]

any chance you could give me a link to see what NASA has been saying about temperatures rising or cooling? Just two weeks ago on the news Rachel McMaddow said the official position of NASA was that global warming is real.

I'm not asking in an accusatory way. I'm just asking because I'd like to catch up a little more on what has happened. To me it sounds like a little tampering but not like some are making it out to be.

But I'll admit that I don't know for a fact what the truth is. I still maintain that a government meterologist working for an industrial nation is going to know the truth better than any politician, journalist, or blogger, so I still believe that's where we should be getting our advice from.

Even if some data has been falsified, they still have a lot more information to go on than we do.

 

[Heretic]

any chance you could give me a link to see what NASA has been saying about temperatures rising or cooling? Just two weeks ago on the news Rachel McMaddow said the official position of NASA was that global warming is real.

I'm not asking in an accusatory way. I'm just asking because I'd like to catch up a little more on what has happened. To me it sounds like a little tampering but not like some are making it out to be.

But I'll admit that I don't know for a fact what the truth is. I still maintain that a government meterologist working for an industrial nation is going to know the truth better than any politician, journalist, or blogger, so I still believe that's where we should be getting our advice from.

Even if some data has been falsified, they still have a lot more information to go on than we do.

I'm kind of going on memory here...so I'd have to look for links.

I think what happened is that NASA was reporting higher temperatures, and then it was revealed that they were lying (I mean, were wrong) and that they had been reporting the wrong temperatures...but the new data and correct numbers have been ignored.

Also, I think I was mixing it with another story, about surface stations...where they are placing temperature readings on metal rooftops and other places that would jack the temperature up, and next to heating units. I think that's the National Weather Service...and temperatures in water would be disregarded, so the coler temperatures were eliminated.

 

[A&W]

I think it would be pretty difficult to make sure that a large number of temperature readings were being place in places like that. Maybe one or two on accident but any large scale effort would have been exposed before it even went into practice. Too many people would have to know about it, and somebody would talk.

Based on what I have read some people tried to hide certain data to make the global warming look more urgent, like disaster was coming next week instead of next century. It's not like people are making it out to be though as if the entire theory was a myth.

it's still proven by rising sea levels and shrinking polar caps and rising temperatures. I'm going through countless articles here and rising temperatures are independantly confirmed by countless agencies doing their own readings all over the entire world.

here is just one of the articles. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33482750/ns/us_news-environment?wid=18298287

I can't find anything confirming the picture your painting. Global warming is unfortanetely real. There is always a bad apple in every bunch and now people are trying to use one bad apple to discredit almost every global scientist and meteorologist on the entire planet while falsely claiming that hundreds of scientists claim it's not real.

People have been saying that about scientists for years. Ask them to post a list and look at what fields those "scientists" are actually in. I've seen people post the links. 99.99% of the scientists who claim it isn't real have no expertise in weather patterns or atmospheric conditions at all.

 

[BlackLantern]

but how long has weather data been collected?? how can anyone really say that 2009 was the HOTTEST evarr!!!

 

[A&W]

but how long has weather data been collected?? how can anyone really say that 2009 was the HOTTEST evarr!!!

when they say on record that means since they started collecting data.

 

[BlackLantern]

and when was that?? because I think it's fair to see that the planet has been around a LOT longer than weather data has been collected

 

[A&W]

I know. It just sounded like you didn't know what they meant when they said hottest year on record so I clarified.

 

[BlackLantern]

http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-media/news-100215-2.html

not sure if this goes here, but interesting news

 

[Carcharodon]

and when was that?? because I think it's fair to see that the planet has been around a LOT longer than weather data has been collected

We haven't been taking direct measurements for very long...less than 200 years, probably. However, there are other indicators of global climate extending back hundreds of thousands of years that provide data with fairly high levels of accuracy, and other indicators that are less precise and provide more of a "general idea" of climate over longer timescales.