Discussion: Global Warming and Other Environmental Issues

[Heretic]

Not only was 2009 not the hottest year on record, but it has now been admitted by Phil Jones that there hasnt been any increase in temperatures in the past 15 years. He also admitted than warming phases are perfectly normal and happened in bigger spikes long before we started up the greenhouse gas machines than what we saw a few decades ago.

 

[BlackLantern]

I would assume, with Earth being a celestial body, that it goes through warming and cooling periods naturally

 

[Heretic]

SHOCKING!!!

You mean to suggest that THE SUN is involved in periodic warming phases?????

HERESY!!!

 

[Marx]

I believe that the earth does go through cycles...but I also believe that man-made activity is also playing a part.

 

[Heretic]

I believe that the earth does go through cycles...but I also believe that man-made activity is also playing a part.

The top experts who have been saying for decades that it is man-made are now claiming that is was incorrect data and that they were wrong. These are the people who developed the concept, and promoted it worldwide. Since even they are now admitting they were wrong, why do you still believe it?

 

[BlackLantern]

yes a part, but the actual impact is debatable...is it as big as some claim or is it merely one factor of many??

 

[Marx]

The top experts who have been saying for decades that it is man-made are now claiming that is was incorrect data and that they were wrong. These are the people who developed the concept, and promoted it worldwide. Since even they are now admitting they were wrong, why do you still believe it?

I'm not quite sure what 'top experts' you are referring to...but the majority I have seen still believe that man-made actvity does play a part. I think it's ignorant to believe that all of the carbon emissions and other gases that we pump into the air do not have an effect on our atmosphere and climate.

Spoiler

I'm not saying that YOU are ignorant, I'm speaking generally.

 

[BlackLantern]

I think things like deforestation and land development are bigger concerns

 

[Marx]

I think things like deforestation and land development are bigger concerns

I think those are also huge issues.

 

[Heretic]

I'm not quite sure what 'top experts' you are referring to...but the majority I have seen still believe that man-made actvity does play a part. I think it's ignorant to believe that all of the carbon emissions and other gases that we pump into the air do not have an effect on our atmosphere and climate.

Spoiler

I'm not saying that YOU are ignorant, I'm speaking generally.

Phil Jones...one of the leading Global Warming scientists on the planet...former head of the CRU....a contributing author to the IPCC's 2001 Third Assessment Report chapter 12 Detection of Climate Change and Attribution of Causes...Together with Michael E. Mann, he has published on the temperature record of the past 1000 years....has admitted that the earth is not heating.

The word is out...the world has warmed and cooled over and over again in bigger spikes than we have seen in our lifetimes. It is now confirmed that no increase has occured over the past 15 years, and in fact, we are cooling.

I mean...these are the guys who invented the global warming concept...and they are admitting they were wrong (while others are getting caught with fraudulent data). Why continue to believe it?

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

yes a part, but the actual impact is debatable...is it as big as some claim or is it merely one factor of many??

Well, it's believed there are several factors humans contribute to. Cars, factories, farms, all sorts of stuff. (I'm sure someone out there has made the claim about humans simply existing as quickening the global warming).

I think things like deforestation and land development are bigger concerns

Such as this one. Some scientists (and for the life of me, I'll actually have to email my colleague now to find out who x.x) was claiming if Carbon Dioxide was a greenhouse gas, deforestation would hasten the buildup.

Phil Jones...one of the leading Global Warming scientists on the planet...former head of the CRU....a contributing author to the IPCC's 2001 Third Assessment Report chapter 12 Detection of Climate Change and Attribution of Causes...Together with Michael E. Mann, he has published on the temperature record of the past 1000 years....has admitted that the earth is not heating.

The word is out...the world has warmed and cooled over and over again in bigger spikes than we have seen in our lifetimes. It is now confirmed that no increase has occured over the past 15 years, and in fact, we are cooling.

I mean...these are the guys who invented the global warming concept...and they are admitting they were wrong (while others are getting caught with fraudulent data). Why continue to believe it?

Well, you said this Dr. Jones had made this claim on Conspiracy Theory? While I'm always inclined to listen to other professionals in the field, it would be always taken with a grain of salt when he's finished his career, and makes claims on a show which isn't known for any form of scientific reputation.

Also, who was getting caught with fraudulent data? I definitely would like to know more about that.

Also, Mann is a fervent believer of global warming. He has yet to claim it's a hoax.

 

[Heretic]

Actually, Phil Jones just stated that in an interview, not on Conspiracy Theory.

Mann was responsible for the hockey stick chart...and was implicated in the ClimateGate emails where he talks about a decline in temperatures in the late 20th century...so I'd hardly call him an unbiased source.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

I know who Dr. Mann is. However, he wasn't talking about any form of decline, nor did the data show decline from the information hacked from their servers, which was only part of their research. He did make a comment about it being a shame they couldn't account for warming, which may simply mean they had no readings due to several problems from a station not being able to verify their sources, all the way to there simply not being any recording equiptment in certain areas where they suspected to be a reason behind warming.

I'd hardly call that him admitting it as a hoax. If he said, "Hoo boy, we sure pulled the wool over their eyes on this global warming crock. They'll never figure out it was a lie before it's too late," then that would be him admitting it as a hoax.

 

[Heretic]

No one is aying it was a hoax...theyd go to jail. They are simply saying theyw ere wrong and the data was wrong.

This in the light of admissions that data that went against this false data was deleted...and anyone who had different data was not allowed a peer review of the work.

But you trust Mann...a guy exposed as a fraud through that hockey stick chart...

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

I don't recall them definitely stating data was deleted. And stating and doing are two very different things. Also, as with all research funded by universities and is not specific to any form of government classification, or a special interest with no journal in the field, it will go under peer review when the reports are complete. The data Harry was working on was incomplete, and not even interpreted yet. So there was no peer review to make. Also, the emails never stated they would halt peer reviews. Refusing to send to a single journal is not disallowing peer review, as undoubtedly, more than one journal will be reviewing the data.

The problem is, there is no proof as to whether data was completed, deleted, omitted, put in a new file, tampered with, altered, misinterpreted, erroneous, misplaced, or anything about it.

A few emails and a datalog of someone trying to make sense of an unsorted database do not make up an entire case of fraud, when we don't even know what the report actually says in it.

A report will (especially in peer review by the 12 or so journals which will be reviewing it) provide the data, the process, and the report. At least a few of them will decide to backcheck the numbers themselves, and will quickly see if there are discrepancies. From there, we would have the answer. Until then, it's really just a pointing game and saying, "Ha! I knew it! The incomplete files on unsorted data, and emails written in anger about a highly pushy government organization point that the entire thing is a hoax, and thousands, if not millions of scientists will get what's coming to them for it."

When (and if, because scandals like this push research YEARS behind schedule, cancel funding, and then ruins entire projects often enough) the report gets filed, we'll know for sure.

 

[bell110]

So, during the last Ice-Age, alot of North American was covered in glaciers. What would we do if that happened again? It's a philosophical question.

 

[Bob ROARman!]

"On the one hand, as scientists we are ethically bound to the scientific method, in effect promising to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but — which means that we must include all the doubts, the caveats, the ifs, ands, and buts. On the other hand, we are not just scientists but human beings as well. And like most people we'd like to see the world a better place, which in this context translates into our working to reduce the risk of potentially disastrous climatic change. To do that we need to get some broadbased support, to capture the public's imagination. That, of course, entails getting loads of media coverage. So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have. This 'double ethical bind' we frequently find ourselves in cannot be solved by any formula. Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest. I hope that means being both."

Dr. Stephen Schneider, 1989, lead author of man IPCC reports, consultant to the last 7 White House administrations

So in other words, we're probably never going to know for sure what's totally BS and what's not. There's so many half truths, "misconceived" or "misinterpreted" data that is "just now being recognized" that why anyone holds anything of what these people say in high regard anymore is beyond me.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

I'm not sure if the data is being misinterpreted in actual reports. Dr. Schneider seems to be speaking on the idea of public addresses, where when asked about their feelings on Global Warming, they'd play down difficulties in pinpointing it, while pushing what they believe to be the end result of Global Warming.

But it's definitely a reason to distrust some of the authorities, when they do amplify the dangers of a subject, while reducing talk on the studies which do not support it as much in the public eye, because the public then feels lied to. Having information knowingly withheld from you in the more prominent addressings of the matter has never done well with the public.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The machine is already primed and in motion. Regardless of what the facts may or may not be, the "truth" will be decided by PR mechanisms on both sides of the argument. Most average people will buy in according to their baseline allegiance. My knee-jerk reaction is to recoil because those who actually have the power to mandate changes tend to be serially corrupt. And that always ends with people's money being snatched and grabbed. For the public good, of course. Besides, our sun will eventually burn out anyway so...

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

PR has much to do with it, but actual plans won't be in place until the research is done on what to do, which will then move to funding. Generally, much of the research and production is funded by corporations.

Also, the sun has about five billion years left before it burns out. It will extinguish life well before that, though.

 

[Heretic]

Actually, the plans are already being put into place, regardless of research. This is a scheme by foreign banks to fund a world government. Again, that has been admitted.

European Union President Herman van Rompuy:
"2009 is also the first year of global governance, with the establishment of the G20 in the middle of the financial crisis. The climate conference in Copenhagen is another step towards the global management of our planet."

The planned carbon taxes are supposed to go to the foreign banks, as a way of funding the new global government. These are the same foreign banks that hijacked America through the Federal Reserve Act, and are in control of our economy. False climate crisis, mixed with a planned financial crisis, and the global government swoops in to save us!

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Actually, that doesn't institute a world government, but it does state about a world organization dealing with financial matters.

This, however, has little to do with Global Warming.

 

[Bob ROARman!]

I'm not sure if the data is being misinterpreted in actual reports. Dr. Schneider seems to be speaking on the idea of public addresses, where when asked about their feelings on Global Warming, they'd play down difficulties in pinpointing it, while pushing what they believe to be the end result of Global Warming.

But it's definitely a reason to distrust some of the authorities, when they do amplify the dangers of a subject, while reducing talk on the studies which do not support it as much in the public eye, because the public then feels lied to. Having information knowingly withheld from you in the more prominent addressings of the matter has never done well with the public.

You know why? Because we ARE being lied to. It's that simple. All you did was beat around the bush and not actually say it. We're being lied to. Is it really that shocking? Does it really surprise us THAT much? It shouldn't anymore.

"It would seem that humans need a common motivation, namely a common adversary to organize and act together in the vacuum; such a motivation must be found to bring the divided nations together to face an outside enemy, either a real one or else one imagined for this purpose.

In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome. The real enemy then, is humanity itself."

-"The First Global Revolution", report from Club of Rome

The Club of Rome is an international think tank. They work with the UN to develop policy guidance documents, which the UN in turn uses in creating it's policies and programs. Guys like Henry Kissinger and David Rockefeller, a few of the true monsters of our time, are members of this organization.

 

[Kent]

Actually, Phil Jones just stated that in an interview,

Which interview would that be?

This one?

If that's the case, what specific statement is it you're thinking about?

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

You know why? Because we ARE being lied to. It's that simple. All you did was beat around the bush and not actually say it. We're being lied to. Is it really that shocking? Does it really surprise us THAT much? It shouldn't anymore.

"It would seem that humans need a common motivation, namely a common adversary to organize and act together in the vacuum; such a motivation must be found to bring the divided nations together to face an outside enemy, either a real one or else one imagined for this purpose.

In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome. The real enemy then, is humanity itself."

-"The First Global Revolution", report from Club of Rome

The Club of Rome is an international think tank. They work with the UN to develop policy guidance documents, which the UN in turn uses in creating it's policies and programs. Guys like Henry Kissinger and David Rockefeller, a few of the true monsters of our time, are members of this organization.

I didn't claim they were lying, nor would I claim they are lying. Reduced talk time (which is a form of withholding) isn't necessarily honest, but it's not lying. It's not very simple at all. I'm not exactly sure why you believe it's cut and dry, "They're lying to us." Is there a goal for them to lie for?

Also, why is Rockefeller considered a monster?

Also, the Club of Rome in this statement does not declare the idea of Global Warming to be invented.

EDIT: Used wrong name.