Discussion: Global Warming and Other Environmental Issues

[Tron5000]

Does it really matter if global warming is real or not? Would it be so bad if we still followed cleaner ways of living? Reduce greenhouse gases, reduce our additcion to oil, use more energy efficient products? Would any of use treat our own homes the way we, as a population, collectively treat the Earth? This is our home, and we only get one. Now, it may not actually be possible to completely ruin the planet, but can sure as hell make it unlivable for humans. The planet will ultimately, be fine. Humans, on the other hand, may not be.

Yes, it matters. It matters greatly, because there are people getting insanely rich off of the fears of the masses. They preach doom and gloom, tell you "you're killing the planet" (while they fly around in private jets and live in homes that use up more than 20X the average US household energy use), and that you can make it better if you "buy carbon offsets" (invest in stocks in their firms).

Should we treat the earth better? Yes, we should. Should we invest in alternative, renewable sources of energy? Absolutely. Are human beings going to cause the very complex weather patterns of this planet to change so much that it means the death of us all? Not bloody likely.

And the whole "what's so wrong with saving the environment?" is so old and overdone that it's sad. That's like someone stealing from one person to give to another. "Well, it may be wrong and illegal, but what's so wrong with wanting to help someone out?"

Nothing wrong with wanting to help someone out. Nothing wrong with wanting to conserve the planet. But don't rob Peter to pay Paul. And don't take my money in your carbon-trading and carbon-offset schemes to make me feel like I'm saving the planet. It's based on faulty science, it's based on demagoguery, it's based on fear. And it's a lie, and these people know it, yet the masses blindly lap it up like so much milk from the teat.

 

[Tron5000]

no, I'm not saying it's not true ( you did notice that) I'm saying that you believe THAT, yet think that global warming is a hoax.

So, you basically can't show me why I shouldn't believe it. I believe it because it's a fact. You may think I'm incorrect, but I know I'm right. And I know that you can't disprove me, because the data is not there. Fact vs ideology...I'll take fact, thank you very much.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

So, you basically can't show me why I shouldn't believe it. I believe it because it's a fact. You may think I'm incorrect, but I know I'm right. And I know that you can't disprove me, because the data is not there. Fact vs ideology...I'll take fact, thank you very much.

hahahahaha

See, the problem I have is that I believe that there are many scientists who are not attempting to prove or disprove other models. I think there are a great number of scientists who are interested only in securing their funding, or their stature (tenure), or their place as a contributor to a prestigious journal. I believe that many scientists ignore readily-available data (which contradicts their positions) in deference to data that fits their models, thus perpetuating a cycle of falsehoods and deception. I also believe that there is a significant lack of testing and verification (the bases of the scientific theory) where the issue of 'global warming,' or 'climate change,' is concerned.

fact vs. ideology indeed.

 

[Tron5000]

hahahahaha



fact vs. ideology indeed.

At least I'm presenting my side as I see it. You're presenting things as fact whe n they are not. Oh, it's nice that you showed some pictures. That's all fine and good. But show me the actual data that proves that mankind is contributing to global warming...er, I mean, climate change...whoops, I mean, whatever you guys are calling it these days.

The data doesn't exist. The world warms, it cools. It has done so since long before we were here and will continue to do so long after we're gone.

One super-eruption of a volcano would put more pollutants into the atmosphere than we humans could in several years. We're very arrogant to believe that we have altered the weather patterns of this globe, and even more arrogant (or ignorant) if we believe that we can alter them to find the perfect balance. What, pray tell, is the perfect balance? If the world is warming or cooling too much, what's our goal? With all the caps on carbon emissions, what are we trying to accomplish? What is that magic temperature or perfect stabilization of weather patterns for which we are aiming?

 

[Ol'Canucklehead]

All I know is that its been hotter here in Texas than I have ever felt itbefore, and I've lived here all my life.

 

[Tron5000]

hahahahaha



fact vs. ideology indeed.

You know good and well that I was referencing the previous discussion about whether or not the US provides more aid and assistance to "developing" nations than most other world powers combined. But that was cute, how you tried to use quotes from me on the topic of global warming to attempt to combat my US aid comments. Keep trying, though. Nice try.

 

[Ol'Canucklehead]

Sarcasim FTW!


Lol, why is it when people argue here it always boils down to sarcasim or anger, I mean for god sake half of you are adults...right?

 

[Zen]

You know good and well that I was referencing the previous discussion about whether or not the US provides more aid and assistance to "developing" nations than most other world powers combined. But that was cute, how you tried to use quotes from me on the topic of global warming to attempt to combat my US aid comments. Keep trying, though. Nice try.

careful with that stuff man, theres alot of evidence out there for political upheavel, resource and labor theft, polution and general malfeasance which may justify all that economic aid we send out...

some say it isnt enough

i know, i know

they're fricken crazy.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

At least I'm presenting my side as I see it. You're presenting things as fact whe n they are not. Oh, it's nice that you showed some pictures. That's all fine and good. But show me the actual data that proves that mankind is contributing to global warming...er, I mean, climate change...whoops, I mean, whatever you guys are calling it these days.

hahahaha " you guys"? who's "we" guys? the pictures by the way, illustrate POLLUTION as I was answering to Celldog's " we're not destroying the planet" post.
but I find it interesting that you say "I'm presenting my side as I see it"
the other said has been presented to you and your answer so far?

BELIEF.

purely belief, nothing else, no cold hard facts, basically you say that there's lack of scientific backing to your side because....and then you enter the realm of make believe.
see, I could " believe " the evil reptilian overlords are manipulating people like you into disregarding the impact of humanity on it's environment
( already a proven fact with cfc's but people have really short memories)
but, see there's no way you can " prove me wrong" as it is a " belief" of mine.
however, just for clarity I don't choose to believe that, I find it really implausible.

The data doesn't exist. The world warms, it cools. It has done so since long before we were here and will continue to do so long after we're gone.

actually the date DOES exist, there's charts and graphs and all sorts of neat things not based on belief, and guess what?
while not THE leading cause in the changes it is nonetheless a factor, not even a small factor, but a factor.
why you don't know about this? who knows, maybe you should stop reading " what really happened" long enough to go read scientific american once in a while.

One super-eruption of a volcano would put more pollutants into the atmosphere than we humans could in several years. We're very arrogant to believe that we have altered the weather patterns of this globe, and even more arrogant (or ignorant) if we believe that we can alter them to find the perfect balance. What, pray tell, is the perfect balance? If the world is warming or cooling too much, what's our goal? With all the caps on carbon emissions, what are we trying to accomplish? What is that magic temperature or perfect stabilization of weather patterns for which we are aiming?

well, I believe the arrogant and stupid course of action would be to try and pretend that there is no adverse effects on the environment from the many alterations industry makes upon the earth.
I notice that you want to change gears all of a sudden into the realm of the "perfect balance" but hey, we're not talking about that right?
we're talking about whether or not man has nay impact on the environment.
and let me tell you, man can change the temperature and weather systems in cities right? it's a proven fact that weather systems change when an area is not populated to when it supports a city, much less a big city.
how many cities across the globe? how many big cities? how many mega-cities?
I'm sure NO impact on a global scale is possible.
quite sure.

You know good and well that I was referencing the previous discussion about whether or not the US provides more aid and assistance to "developing" nations than most other world powers combined. But that was cute, how you tried to use quotes from me on the topic of global warming to attempt to combat my US aid comments. Keep trying, though. Nice try.

I find it cute that you completely missed the point I was trying to make.
you referenced a global hoax when referring to global warming, ie, people in power trying to mislead us.
yet, when it comes to information on aid and charitable actions, all of a sudden people in power can't lie.
I can see how you would think this was a "nice try", seeing as how you're not big on the whole " perception" part of this deal.
but let me assure you, it wasn't a try, from your response it was a resounding success.

 

[Tron5000]

well, I believe the arrogant and stupid course of action would be to try and pretend that there is no adverse effects on the environment from the many alterations industry makes upon the earth.

It's quite humorous that I have posted, several times, that mankind is hurting the environment and that we should acknowledge that and make changes in our behavior. Your above statement is obviously in reference to someone else, so I don't see how such a statement is relevant in this discussion. So if you're trying to debate someone that isn't actually here, well, can't help you on that.

I love that you use words like "stupid." Good way to portray your argument in an otherwise mature and civil debate.

 

[Tron5000]

If you're such a proponent of combating "climate change," what have you, yourself, done about it? Do you walk to work? Have you converted your home to use only renewable sources of energy? Have you purchased your "carbon offsets"?

Actually, don't even answer that. I'm just done with you. You talk in circles, you make things up (about what I've said), and you're trying to debate against a position that has not been presented here. Lost cause, and I won't waste my time.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

It's quite humorous that I have posted, several times, that mankind is hurting the environment and that we should acknowledge that and make changes in our behavior. Your above statement is obviously in reference to someone else, so I don't see how such a statement is relevant in this discussion. So if you're trying to debate someone that isn't actually here, well, can't help you on that.

I love that you use words like "stupid." Good way to portray your argument in an otherwise mature and civil debate.

well, maybe you'd see the relevance if you had reposted the thing in it's entirety

well, I believe the arrogant and stupid course of action would be to try and pretend that there is no adverse effects on the environment from the many alterations industry makes upon the earth.
I notice that you want to change gears all of a sudden into the realm of the "perfect balance" but hey, we're not talking about that right?
we're talking about whether or not man has nay impact on the environment.
and let me tell you, man can change the temperature and weather systems in cities right? it's a proven fact that weather systems change when an area is not populated to when it supports a city, much less a big city.
how many cities across the globe? how many big cities? how many mega-cities?
I'm sure NO impact on a global scale is possible.
quite sure.

I'll let the "mature" comment slide as IT has no bearing on the discussion.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

If you're such a proponent of combating "climate change," what have you, yourself, done about it? Do you walk to work? Have you converted your home to use only renewable sources of energy? Have you purchased your "carbon offsets"?

oh, I didn't know this was about me.
I thought this was mainly about the impact of man on the environment global warming.
I didn't even see my name in the title.
but hey, don't let the fact that it's immaterial stop you from trying to desperately come up with an argument.

Actually, don't even answer that. I'm just done with you. You talk in circles, you make things up (about what I've said), and you're trying to debate against a position that has not been presented here. Lost cause, and I won't waste my time.

or don't, I see this is kind of a running theme with you, you talk of mature debate, but the minute you're forced to step outside the gospel of your own beliefs and actually defend what you said you're always "done" with people.
your intellectual dishonesty is precious.

 

[Tron5000]

No. I simply will not debate with someone who intentionally misrepresents my statements in order to attempt to further their own agenda. You have done so several times, and while I attempt to engage in meaningful discussion, you act in a very condescending and disrespectful manner. Not worth my time. Good day to you.

Edit: Not to mention, you present your side of the argument, but have yet to post any actual data or evidence to back it up. It's very easy to speak on a subject, but not so easy to produce data that does not exist. And with that, I bid you adieu.

 

[Ol'Canucklehead]

No. I simply will not debate with someone who intentionally misrepresents my statements in order to attempt to further their own agenda. You have done so several times, and while I attempt to engage in meaningful discussion, you act in a very condescending and disrespectful manner. Not worth my time. Good day to you.

Have you ever been in a debate before? I took the class for years......THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT!

Not saying you are doing that Sparkle, just that all in all that statement made little sense to me.

 

[Tron5000]

Have you ever been in a debate before? I took the class for years......THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT!

Not saying you are doing that Sparkle, just that all in all that statement made little sense to me.

So you want me to debate with a liar? This is not a courtroom. There is no judge, no jury. Forget all that noise.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

No. I simply will not debate with someone who intentionally misrepresents my statements in order to attempt to further their own agenda. You have done so several times, and while I attempt to engage in meaningful discussion, you act in a very condescending and disrespectful manner. Not worth my time. Good day to you.

Edit: Not to mention, you present your side of the argument, but have yet to post any actual data or evidence to back it up. It's very easy to speak on a subject, but not so easy to produce data that does not exist. And with that, I bid you adieu.

well, I can produce the same sort of data you did " hey...I BELIEVE that global warming is affected by man, because I THINK that changes in the natural environment have effects on that environment's weather patterns"

wow. that was easy.

also, what's my " agenda"?...haha, don't be a freak.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

So you want me to debate with a liar? This is not a courtroom. There is no judge, no jury. Forget all that noise.

can you produce evidence that I have lied?

 

[Tron5000]

well, I can produce the same sort of data you did " hey...I BELIEVE that global warming is affected by man, because I THINK that changes in the natural environment have effects on that environment's weather patterns"

wow. that was easy.

also, what's my " agenda"?...haha, don't be a freak.

So you resort to name-calling. You know, I really wish I could keep up this meaningful dialogue. And I have posted references to back up MY POSITION several times in this thread. But I won't let you keep baiting me here. Once people start using words like "stupid" and "freak," the respect and civility has definitely evaporated. Have a good one.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

So you resort to name-calling. You know, I really wish I could keep up this meaningful dialogue. And I have posted references to back up MY POSITION several times in this thread. But I won't let you keep baiting me here. Once people start using words like "stupid" and "freak," the respect and civility has definitely evaporated. Have a good one.

hmmm, so you call me a liar, I ask you to say how I lied and you remain silent.
you say I have an agenda to further at your expense, I ask you what this agenda is and you get indignant and say you're "done" like you're the queen of england.

please.
you're " done " because you're out of your depth, that's all, don't manufacture some reason to part, you simply know you have no leg to stand on.

on your way then.

 

[Memphis Slim]

jag

That's Al Gore after he lost to George Bush........ Nice!

 

[Carcharodon]

That's Al Gore after he lost to George Bush........ Nice!

That's how I'd react after winning the popular vote only to lose the election.

Losing to George Bush at anything is truly embarassing, though. It's like losing a game of rock-paper-scissors to a carrot.

 

[Superhobo]

That's how I'd react after winning the popular vote only to lose the election.

Losing to George Bush at anything is truly embarassing, though. It's like losing a game of rock-paper-scissors to a carrot.

 

[jaguarr]

That's Al Gore after he lost to George Bush........ Nice!

That's how I'd react after winning the popular vote only to lose the election.

Losing to George Bush at anything is truly embarassing, though. It's like losing a game of rock-paper-scissors to a carrot.

jag

 

[SuperMonkey]

So it's natural for within the matter of only TWENTY minutes for the weather to go:

Rain, Snow Storm, Beautiful, Rain, Fog, Snow Storm, Beautiful, Snow Storm, Rain, Nothing.

?

care to explain how that would be caused by warming?