Discussion: Relations with Russia

So, I have an idea. I don't like the way my neighbors behave, so I'm going to take over their backyard and maybe all of their property, BUT if they just give me their backyard and promise to change their ways, I'm willing to forego taking their house and front yard.

They don't seem to think that's fair.....
 
You know who killed any chance of Ukraine remaining "neutral"? They guy who ordered the invasion of Ukraine.
 
Something like Ukraine agrees to not Join the NATO but Russia gives the land back they stole.
The Ukrainian leadership rejected that peace deal in early 2022, which is even acknowledged by Western establishment media.

 
Serbian President Vucic sees world war in the coming months. I'm assuming he's hoping his country remain neutral, which is fair after what happened to it in the last world war.

It's easy to understand what's happening -- the Ukraine war is a gamble to assume control of Russia's land and natural resources. Replace Putin with a white nationalist like Navalny and White people can stay on top for another 100 years.

So the plan has a certain logic to it ... Other than the fact there's no way to implement it.

 
That a peace deal has to be reached, is clear...but one that Ukraine sets and Russia agrees...or at least one that is even.
Something like Ukraine to not Join the NATO but Russia gives the land back they stole.

If you're not willing to read Foreign Affairs, read the New York Times.



Foreign Affairs is for people in the top 1% to discuss ideas with other people in the top 1%.

The New York Times is for people in the top 1% to tell people in the top 10% how they're supposed to think.

I find it interesting that they're now both acknowledging that the West and Ukraine's leadership walked away from better terms in 2022. Previously that was denied, I only knew about it because I listen to independent and international media. To me this suggests there is some internal debate taking place among the elites, which is probably good ?
 
The Ukrainian leadership rejected that peace deal in early 2022, which is even acknowledged by Western establishment media.


You did read those treaties, right? No where there was it saying Russia gave all its land back. And yeah, there is good reasons Ukraine rejected those.
 
You did read those treaties, right? No where there was it saying Russia gave all its land back.
The Western public is being permitted to see a draft of what were several drafts for the first time, but let's go with this.

(I don't know if this is the same draft that Putin shows to other world leaders).

Had Ukraine agreed to that treaty, it would still have sovereignty over Kherson and Zaporizhzhia (which it has now lost forever), and Donetsk and Lugansk would be independent republics rather than Russian oblasts as they will now forever be.

And yeah, there is good reasons Ukraine rejected those.
Ukraine was actually ready to accept the treaty, and Russia ended the siege of Kiev as a goodwill gesture. Then UK prime minister Boris Johnson visited the Ukraine leadership, and promised them NATO military help if they kept fighting.

The Ukrainians kept on fighting, but as we now know with certainty and many people predicted at the time, the military help from NATO was completely inadequate.

If NATO wants to defeat Russia, they can't rely on half measures.

Did you know that for the second world war, 16 million Americans fought in the armed forces, the peak marginal tax rate was 94%, and that the unemployment rate was 1.2%?
 
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Ukraine was actually ready to accept the treaty, and Russia ended the siege of Kiev as a goodwill gesture. Then UK prime minister Boris Johnson visited the Ukraine leadership, and promised them NATO military help if they kept fighting.

The Ukrainians kept on fighting, but as we now know with certainty and many people predicted at the time, the military help from NATO was completely inadequate.

If NATO wants to defeat Russia, they can't rely on half measures.

Did you know that for the second world war, 16 million Americans fought in the armed forces, the peak marginal tax rate was 94%, and that the unemployment rate was 1.2%?

That is complete and utter bull****. They were kicked the **** out of Kyiv. Ukranians, for some odd reason to you, kind of hardened up on certain things when they started to find out about the Bucha massacre, something that has sort of become a trend in retaken areas from Russia. Ukraine walked away from talks when Putin said that their little council of protection would have veto power over other countries being able to provide aid to Ukraine if they were attacked again. Even you have to see that giving Russia theoretical veto power over other countries providing aid if Ukraine was attacked by *someone* is completely and utter bull**** for Ukraine to accept.
 
You know who killed any chance of Ukraine remaining "neutral"? They guy who ordered the invasion of Ukraine.
Literally.
And Ukraine doesnt even need to be neutral, they have all the right in the world to choose their way.
They want to be part of the Nato? Then they can.
They dont want to be under the thumb of a dictator... That is their right.

Its still so insane that the weak Russian propaganda worked on some, especially conservatives...but then, conservatives were always just smoke and mirrors and never really believe in their own "morals"
 
Conservatives I understand. But the tankies are the ones that piss me off.
 
That is complete and utter bull****. They were kicked the **** out of Kyiv. Ukranians, for some odd reason to you, kind of hardened up on certain things when they started to find out about the Bucha massacre, something that has sort of become a trend in retaken areas from Russia. Ukraine walked away from talks when Putin said that their little council of protection would have veto power over other countries being able to provide aid to Ukraine if they were attacked again. Even you have to see that giving Russia theoretical veto power over other countries providing aid if Ukraine was attacked by *someone* is completely and utter bull**** for Ukraine to accept.

You mention Bucha, for example,for which the Western establishment narrative is questionable to say the least, but are you aware that the Kiev regime has been bombing civilians in the Donbass since 2014? Are you aware that those bombings include double tappings to hit ambulances?

But you don't have to believe me today. Ten years from now, when the Ukrainians hate the West as much as the Chechens do, you might ponder how that happened.

As for Ukraine, I wish the will of the people there was followed -- neutrality. They wanted to be neutral, but the West said no.

Conservatives I understand. But the tankies are the ones that piss me off.
I hope this pejorative term isn't for me. In this context I prefer the terms anti-racist or anti-inperialism. I want every civilization to have the option of self actualization.

Also, I now have children, I don't want them to go die in a stupid bipartisan war so that the MIC can make bank.
 
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I was wrong about something significant.

When the EU first announced their sanctions on Russian energy, I figured there was a risk they'd have rolling brownouts, etc, because it's impossible to replace energy.

All the sanctions meant was that if Europe should ever need to buy Russian energy, they would just buy Russian energy.

 
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Conservatives I understand. But the tankies are the ones that piss me off.
Yeah. Some people don't really seem to concern themselves with political repression and sing the praises of these repressive regimes. I was something of a supporter of the USSR, but recognized that a political revolution was in order. Unfortunately, that failed and when the USSR dissolved, they picked the path of a degraded economic structure while keeping the deformed political structure that has plagued Russia.....like forever.
 

78 countries at Swiss conference agree Ukraine’s territorial integrity must be basis of any peace




 

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