Discussion: The North American Union

[kytrigger]

My father is a strategist for a leading Republican in the banking committee - there is no Amero.

You know, I tried to read what you typed, but all I saw was Paul Bettany.

 

[Nivek]

Um, we can see maybe five to six pixels of Pluto. We don't even have a clear image of a planet (or planetoid) inside our own solar system. We don't even understand the complexity of dirt, nor can we create a seed to plant within it. All that we know is all that we're capable of determining with our understanding of our surroundings, and we haven't even figured out what makes ourselves tick. What makes you think decades of research have revealed anything other than what our finite view of things allows us to understand?

The simplest tree is more complex than the most powerful computer system, yet it bears a simplicity all its own that we cannot possibly fathom nor create on our own - something called life. Yet we'll presume to believe that our theories about the universe are conclusive.

It all seems a tad naive to me...

Did you go to a public school, or are you home schooled? Honest question.

 

[Nivek]

These images are available. You just have to use the google

But it could be rendered art, like movie SPFX!

This could be a fun discussion in itself, because facts are not important to one side of this discussion.

 

[Mikelus]

Of course, fundamentalists know more than the scientific community, damn, our scientists are so ignorant in comparison!

 

[Backdrifter]

Bull****.

I take it you've never looked at the pictures taken of Mercury by the MESSENGER spacecraft; the several pictures of Venus taken by American and Soviet probes as well as topographical imaging through radar; the images of Mars via the Hubble space telescope, both Viking probes, and the Mars Pathfinder.

I can go on about the pictures of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune.

These images are available. You just have to use the google

I believe he said outside of our OWN solar system.

 

[Addendum]

I believe he said outside of our OWN solar system.

He said "inside our own solar system"

 

[lazur]

Bull****.

I take it you've never looked at the pictures taken of Mercury by the MESSENGER spacecraft; the several pictures of Venus taken by American and Soviet probes as well as topographical imaging through radar; the images of Mars via the Hubble space telescope, both Viking probes, and the Mars Pathfinder.

I can go on about the pictures of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune.

These images are available. You just have to use the google

Such an obtuse response. This is as good as a picture of Pluto gets with our current technology:

Advanced enough to understand the age of the universe we are not...

 

[lazur]

Did you go to a public school, or are you home schooled? Honest question.

Public. Why?

 

[Addendum]

Such an obtuse response. This is as good as a picture of Pluto gets with our current technology:

Advanced enough to understand the age of the universe we are not...

Pluto isn't a planet of the Solar System. It's part of the Kuiper Belt, which is similar to the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter

 

[hippie_hunter]

Um, we can see maybe five to six pixels of Pluto. We don't even have a clear image of a planet (or planetoid) inside our own solar system.

We have clear images of all the planets in our solar system.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I guess what I'm not understanding is how your views could cause you to believe that the US currency system isn't on the verge of collapse, given our debt, our GDP, the fact that it was our unethical practices that led to the global economic meltdown, along with the overwhelming evidence that exists out there at LEGITIMATE sources that say that the NAU is a reality.

Why would you completely write something off when so much supporting evidence exists to substantiate the claims?

There is no North American Union. Such a continental union would not be created in a secret illegal manner.

 

[lazur]

Pluto isn't a planet of the Solar System. It's part of the Kuiper Belt, which is similar to the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter

My point still stands. All I'm doing is illustrating how infinitely little we know about our universe and our existence. We can barely make out planetoids on the outer rim of our solar system, but we will presume to understand the age of the universe. What a simple handful of dirt represents is an infinitely more complex and mysterious material than the most complex of humankind's creations, yet we presume to understand our world.

When humankind is able to create a handful of dirt, or a seed, or a tree 'from scratch,' then we will be in a position to better understand how everything got here, and how long ago. Until then, it's anyone's guess.

 

[Addendum]

The only point that stands regarding the solar system is that there isn't a clear picture of Pluto.

However, your claim that we don't clear pictures of a planet inside our solar system is dead. wrong.

 

[hippie_hunter]

When humankind is able to create a handful of dirt, or a seed, or a tree 'from scratch,' then we will be in a position to better understand how everything got here, and how long ago. Until then, it's anyone's guess.

Creating dirt from scratch is literally impossible because it takes millions of years to form it.

 

[jaguarr]

So....lazur's scientific evidence that the Earth might not be as old as science says it is is because we can't create dirt from scratch, can't take clear pictures of planets (which is wrong) and can't create life from scratch *cough*cloning*cough*?

jag

 

[Mikelus]

Despite all the scientific evidence, some fundamentalists think the Earth could be just thousands of years old.
Some people just can't accept reality as it is and create these fantasies or alternative ideas of how they think the reality of the world should be.

 

[Paradoxium]

This thread is officially confusing

I still stick by my mathematical model on time. When time is accounted for, it diminishes the chances of alien civilizations existing together simultaneously. Perhaps Alien Civilization existing in of itself is a probability maybe a billion years ago or a billion years from now. I think the probability of UFOs being time travelers are probably higher than an alien visiting earth.

But hey who knows, the UFO community been abuzz over the recent slew of disclosure.

edit: I retract the little time travel tract. I dunno what I was thinking when I said that.

 

[jaguarr]

This thread is officially confusing

I still stick by my mathematical model on time. When time is accounted for, it diminishes the chances of alien civilizations existing together simultaneously. Perhaps Alien Civilization existing in of itself is a probability maybe a billion years ago or a billion years from now. I think the probability of UFOs being time travelers are probably higher than an alien visiting earth.

But hey who knows, the UFO community been abuzz over the recent slew of disclosure.

edit: I retract the little time travel tract. I dunno what I was thinking when I said that.

What about interdimensional travel? Eh? What about that?

jag

 

[lazur]

Creating dirt from scratch is literally impossible because it takes millions of years to form it.

There's no evidence that it takes millions of years to form dirt. The entire premise of our understanding of 'dating' rests in the only physical dating process we've ever both wholly accepted and wholly debunked at the same time - carbon dating. It's a proven hoax.

How much recorded history do we have? A couple thousand years? Before that, the dark ages? Let's say 3,000 years for kicks. So what? The planet's been around billions of years, right? Yet our own known history goes back only 3,000 years? Why all the sudden?

No one knows how this all started. We look around and see the evidence every day of the brilliance that is creation and life, and how it all works, and we take it for granted, and we observe it, closely, and name all of its parts. But we have no understanding of how those parts came to be. Why does one seed produce a different result than another? As sophisticated, advanced and 'intelligent' as we are, we can't make a single grass seed in any laboratory, at least not without using other grass seeds. As I said, the complexity of design that has gone into our 'universe' is beyond our own technological understanding, so we classify it as 'nature' - or 'just how things are'... almost sounds like the same definition for magic to me. But it is how we think. If we can't explain something, there must be a logical explanation for it. But if no logical explanation can be found, meh, no big deal, we'll find the reason some day. Meanwhile, run that image of Pluto through the analyzer again. I think we can get a few more pixels out of it with the new circuitry we installed today...

We know nothing, much less how old anything is, particularly since our reference of time and space, and our limited time having recorded it, will always remain the two primary barriers, no matter how advanced we think we are...

 

[Paradoxium]

What about interdimensional travel? Eh? What about that?

jag

You notice how a lot of stuff is cyclical in our universe? I think Alan Moore (of all people its weird he would come up with this), might be right that we are reliving our lives and over and over again. Although I heard this is a Buddhist principle. Me and you had this very same forum conversation before in another lifetime.

Am I giving you a headache yet?

 

[The Battousai]

There's no evidence that it takes millions of years to form dirt. The entire premise of our understanding of 'dating' rests in the only physical dating process we've ever both wholly accepted and wholly debunked at the same time - carbon dating. It's a proven hoax.

*cough*

WRONG.

Here's why:

Radiometric Dating

Accuracy of Fossils and Dating Methods

Carbon Dating

How much recorded history do we have? A couple thousand years? Before that, the dark ages? Let's say 3,000 years for kicks. So what? The planet's been around billions of years, right? Yet our own known history goes back only 3,000 years? Why all the sudden?

This is priceless

Actually, recorded history is traced back to about 3300 BCE which is roughly 5300 years ago - NOT 3000 (you may have confused 300 years ago with 3000 BCE).

First off, the first examples of recorded history are few and far between - these were (as far as we know) carved into stone due to the weathering and erosion of rocks. Any recording on organic matter that may have existed, however, has not been preserved and, therefore, not made it to the present day for us to study.

Secondly, Our planet may have been around for 4.6 billion years, but life didn't start to appear until about 3.4 billion years ago. These unicellular microorganisms didn't change much until about 1.5 billion years ago when multicellular organisms evolved from their simpler counterparts. The numbers of these creatures rose for the next 900 million years. The first hard-bodied organisms started to become numerous in the Cambrian explosion around 545 million years ago.

You can look up where it went from there if you like, but I'm sure you'll continue to shove your index fingers into their repective ears whenever people talk about things you don't agree with.

No one knows how this all started.

Who said they do? Anyone who does is delusional.

We look around and see the evidence every day of the brilliance that is creation and life, and how it all works, and we take it for granted, and we observe it, closely, and name all of its parts. But we have no understanding of how those parts came to be.

We may not have complete understanding (and it's very unlikely we will in totality), but to say we have none is rather arrogant of you.

Why does one seed produce a different result than another?

It's mutation, actually - a perfectly natural random change in the genetic code.

Mutation

As sophisticated, advanced and 'intelligent' as we are, we can't make a single grass seed in any laboratory, at least not without using other grass seeds.

So? Alchemy doesn't exist

As I said, the complexity of design that has gone into our 'universe' is beyond our own technological understanding, so we classify it as 'nature' - or 'just how things are'... almost sounds like the same definition for magic to me.

...because things have changed INCALCULABLY since the beginning of the universe 14 BILLION YEARS AGO that things have only increased in complexity.

Things only become simpler with decay.

But it is how we think. If we can't explain something, there must be a logical explanation for it.

That all depends on what one thinks is logical, per se.

But if no logical explanation can be found, meh, no big deal, we'll find the reason some day.

What's wrong with being hopeful?

Is this somehow worse than assuming one "knows" that the universe was created by some external entity?

Good luck trying to explain how THAT got there in the first place...

Meanwhile, run that image of Pluto through the analyzer again. I think we can get a few more pixels out of it with the new circuitry we installed today...

Pluto - NASA

"Pluto is about 39 times as far from the sun as Earth is. Its average distance from the sun is about 3,647,240,000 miles (5,869,660,000 kilometers). Pluto travels around the sun in an elliptical (oval-shaped) orbit. At some point in its orbit, it comes closer to the sun than Neptune, the outermost planet. It stays inside Neptune's orbit for about 20 Earth years. This event occurs every 248 Earth years, which is about the same number of Earth years it takes Pluto to travel once around the sun. Pluto entered Neptune's orbit on Jan. 23, 1979, and remained there until Feb. 11, 1999. As it orbits the sun, Pluto spins on its axis, an imaginary line through its center. It spins around once in about six Earth days."

We know nothing, much less how old anything is, particularly since our reference of time and space, and our limited time having recorded it, will always remain the two primary barriers, no matter how advanced we think we are...

You should take a few science classes - it may help you a bit with your misunderstanding of basic principles

 

[The Battousai]

Sorry about derailing the thread there


BACK TO THE AMERO

 

[Addendum]

*cough*

WRONG.

Here's why:

Radiometric Dating

Accuracy of Fossils and Dating Methods

Carbon Dating



This is priceless

Actually, recorded history is traced back to about 3300 BCE which is roughly 5300 years ago - NOT 3000 (you may have confused 300 years ago with 3000 BCE).

First off, the first examples of recorded history are few and far between - these were (as far as we know) carved into stone due to the weathering and erosion of rocks. Any recording on organic matter that may have existed, however, has not been preserved and, therefore, not made it to the present day for us to study.

Secondly, Our planet may have been around for 4.6 billion years, but life didn't start to appear until about 3.4 billion years ago. These unicellular microorganisms didn't change much until about 1.5 billion years ago when multicellular organisms evolved from their simpler counterparts. The numbers of these creatures rose for the next 900 million years. The first hard-bodied organisms started to become numerous in the Cambrian explosion around 545 million years ago.

You can look up where it went from there if you like, but I'm sure you'll continue to shove your index fingers into their repective ears whenever people talk about things you don't agree with.



Who said they do? Anyone who does is delusional.



We may not have complete understanding (and it's very unlikely we will in totality), but to say we have none is rather arrogant of you.



It's mutation, actually - a perfectly natural random change in the genetic code.

Mutation



So? Alchemy doesn't exist



...because things have changed INCALCULABLY since the beginning of the universe 14 BILLION YEARS AGO that things have only increased in complexity.

Things only become simpler with decay.



That all depends on what one thinks is logical, per se.



What's wrong with being hopeful?

Is this somehow worse than assuming one "knows" that the universe was created by some external entity?

Good luck trying to explain how THAT got there in the first place...



Pluto - NASA

"Pluto is about 39 times as far from the sun as Earth is. Its average distance from the sun is about 3,647,240,000 miles (5,869,660,000 kilometers). Pluto travels around the sun in an elliptical (oval-shaped) orbit. At some point in its orbit, it comes closer to the sun than Neptune, the outermost planet. It stays inside Neptune's orbit for about 20 Earth years. This event occurs every 248 Earth years, which is about the same number of Earth years it takes Pluto to travel once around the sun. Pluto entered Neptune's orbit on Jan. 23, 1979, and remained there until Feb. 11, 1999. As it orbits the sun, Pluto spins on its axis, an imaginary line through its center. It spins around once in about six Earth days."



You should take a few science classes - it may help you a bit with your misunderstanding of basic principles

I think the following post works better with regard to battousai's

Well Said.... The Best Post of the Year!


Some people will never quite understand the point you are making.

 

[Halcohol]

Jesus. I skipped ahead a page and I thought I'd slipped into a alternate parallel universe for a second.

This whole economic crash is simply going to get more people sounding an alarm, even if what they fear has little chance of coming true. So the worse this gets, the more of this kind of worrying we'll be hearing as the opinion becomes more widespread. So it's important to focus on what will likely happen.

I can promise you one thing, and that's Canadians would revolt in the streets if we were told we'd been sucked into a North American Union. There is NO way that even the most liberal-minded Canadian would ever consider the possibility of abandoning our country. I can imagine it's a similar thing with Americans, in that they are proud of being American and nothing is going to change what that means. It's more than likely the case in Mexico, too.

I guess it's because our three countries are still of another generation or two from the member states of the EU that we cling so tightly to that which makes us unique. So what happens instead is that Canada and the USA both independently strike up trade talks with the EU, but not really with each other. I would guess that our independent currencies will make it through this depression and last all the way to the next one.

Hopefully by then we'll have moved closer to matching the globalization of our society with that of our economy.

 

[The Battousai]

I think the following post works better with regard to battousai's

Spoiler

Thanks