Discussion: The North American Union

hippie_hunter said:
) and loosening border controls to allow the freedom of movements of people, goods, services, and capital. That is an important aspect of capitalism and would pose no threat to our sovereignty.
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Loosening the border is bad. Theres a specific people very near where I live who keep coming over and they annoy me!
 
We must protect our rights as US Citizens. We didn't ask for a Union. No one asked us for a Union. If this goes through, "We the People" has lost all meaning.
 
SupermanBeyond said:
We must protect our rights as US Citizens. We didn't ask for a Union. No one asked us for a Union. If this goes through, "We the People" has lost all meaning.
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A North American Union will not ruin or destroy our rights at all. That is not the purpose of such a thing. You're talking out of your ass.

However, I do agree with you that this is being done without the consent of the people and that is completely wrong.
 
hippie_hunter said:
A North American Union will not ruin or destroy our rights at all. That is not the purpose of such a thing. You're talking out of your ass.

However, I do agree with you that this is being done without the consent of the people and that is completely wrong.
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What I meant to say is: If this was to happen with out our consent, it is a loss of our Rights.
 
hippie_hunter said:
A North American Union will not ruin or destroy our rights at all. That is not the purpose of such a thing. You're talking out of your ass.

However, I do agree with you that this is being done without the consent of the people and that is completely wrong.
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That's sort of a contradiction, don't you think? I mean, we haven't lost our rights, yet the most important right we have (the right to vote) is being completely and intentionally sidestepped...
 
lazur said:
That's sort of a contradiction, don't you think? I mean, we haven't lost our rights, yet the most important right we have (the right to vote) is being completely and intentionally sidestepped...
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Lazur, You do not have a right to vote. It's not in the Bill of Rights. The most important right is the Right of Free Speech. With the Right of Free Speech, you have the Right to Speech through your vote, and in this case, they are not letting us Speak. They are pulling wool over our eyes and doing this deal behind closed doors. A change without the Consent of the Citizens of this Country is against the reason the Constitution was written.
 
SupermanBeyond said:
Lazur, You do not have a right to vote. It's not in the Bill of Rights. The most important right is the Right of Free Speech. With the Right of Free Speech, you have the Right to Speech through your vote, and in this case, they are not letting us Speak. They are pulling wool over our eyes and doing this deal behind closed doors. A change without the Consent of the Citizens of this Country is against the reason the Constitution was written.
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I beg to differ. While the Constitution doesn't implicitly state that the 'right to vote' exists (as it does freedom of speech), the language that has been utilized protects voting as a civil right.

But I think we both agree on the actual subject - that being that 'we the people' have not been consulted in this process.
 
lazur said:
I beg to differ. While the Constitution doesn't implicitly state that the 'right to vote' exists (as it does freedom of speech), the language that has been utilized protects voting as a civil right.

But I think we both agree on the actual subject - that being that 'we the people' have not been consulted in this process.
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Yes that is true, Our rights would evaporate if this Union Happens.
 
SupermanBeyond said:
Nothing huh? The Amero would destroy the Mexican Economy if it were enacted. Who would preside over the currency? Currently we have the Fed in the United States, the Ministry of Finance in Canada and Banco de Mexico dictating the Intrest Rates. Who would preside over this in the case of the Amero?
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I don't see why you would be worried about the US losing sovereignty. This union would have Mexico and Canada as junior partners, not equals. It would give the US government more power over the internal affairs of Canada and Mexico. Seems like the US would gain more than Canada in such a union.
 
The Overlord said:
I don't see why you would be worried about the US losing sovereignty. This union would have Mexico and Canada as junior partners, not equals. It would give the US government more power over the internal affairs of Canada and Mexico. Seems like the US would gain more than Canada in such a union.
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I don't know anything about how their Governments are set up. What is in their Constitutions and so on. The only thing that I do know is that their respective Economies are not as good as the US's and this "Bringing down the playing field" that others are talking about is a bad Idea for our econmy. If this Union exsists, it could develop into a few different ways:

1. A Continental Country. The United States was originally that a group of 13 states (Colonial Nation States) united for a common goal. It was not a Country as people think of the United States today. This NAU could be a Country of 50 former US states, 11 former Canadian states, and 31 former Mexican States, or a Country called the North American Union that is 91 States big. If you have a new country, you have a new Constitution for this new country. Therefore the old Constitution is out the door as are rights guarenteed by it. Do you really want to have the people in political power to decide your new rights?

2. A Defensive Union like NATO. Then why bother? If we already have NATO, It's not broke, then why fix it?

3. A Union of Countries. If the Mexican, United States, and Canadian Governments are still in charge, then you would have Local Governments taxing you, State Governments taxing you, the Federal Government Taxing you, and now the Union Government taxing you! Even if they were to cover it up with each respective Federal Government gives it's "Member Fee" like with the UN, the Federal Government has to raise the Money somehow, right? Ultimately it comes from us. And I believe that the Union would still develop its own Constitution, so which Constitution would out weigh the other? You have a State Constitution, but do you know what is on it? You have a "City Charter" or something like it, but do you know what is on it? But you do know what the US Constitution says. That is the document that this Nation is built on, if we have another Constitution above the US Constituion, which one do we follow?

I would prefer to keep the Countries as it is now, it aint broke, why fix it?

Do you really think that the sovereign states of Mexico and Canada would like to lose power to the US?
 
SupermanBeyond said:
I don't know anything about how their Governments are set up. What is in their Constitutions and so on. The only thing that I do know is that their respective Economies are not as good as the US's and this "Bringing down the playing field" that others are talking about is a bad Idea for our econmy. If this Union exsists, it could develop into a few different ways:

1. A Continental Country. The United States was originally that a group of 13 states (Colonial Nation States) united for a common goal. It was not a Country as people think of the United States today. This NAU could be a Country of 50 former US states, 11 former Canadian states, and 31 former Mexican States, or a Country called the North American Union that is 91 States big. If you have a new country, you have a new Constitution for this new country. Therefore the old Constitution is out the door as are rights guarenteed by it. Do you really want to have the people in political power to decide your new rights?

2. A Defensive Union like NATO. Then why bother? If we already have NATO, It's not broke, then why fix it?

3. A Union of Countries. If the Mexican, United States, and Canadian Governments are still in charge, then you would have Local Governments taxing you, State Governments taxing you, the Federal Government Taxing you, and now the Union Government taxing you! Even if they were to cover it up with each respective Federal Government gives it's "Member Fee" like with the UN, the Federal Government has to raise the Money somehow, right? Ultimately it comes from us. And I believe that the Union would still develop its own Constitution, so which Constitution would out weigh the other? You have a State Constitution, but do you know what is on it? You have a "City Charter" or something like it, but do you know what is on it? But you do know what the US Constitution says. That is the document that this Nation is built on, if we have another Constitution above the US Constituion, which one do we follow?

I would prefer to keep the Countries as it is now, it aint broke, why fix it?

Do you really think that the sovereign states of Mexico and Canada would like to lose power to the US?
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I can't say anything about Mexico, but the Canadian political system is a mx of the UK and US systems, with a constitution was drawn up in 1982. So I don't see how Canadian society is that different from the US':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Canada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms

As economies, you have look at scale. The only reason the US economy is "better" than the Canadian one is because Canadian is far smaller than the US, with about a tenth of the population. For a country of canada's size, we have a very good economy, just because we can't beat the uS ecomomic doesn't mean our economy is bad shape. No coffee chain could complete with starbucks, but they can do well on their own and make a good profit. Notice how at times in the past months that Canadian dollar was worth than the US green back. The US would likely benefit ecomnomically from such a union.

Really I don't see how the US would be the loser here, they could easily bully Canada and Mexico to following their will, rather than the other way around. Really how is Canada going to "force" the US to do anything? The US government ignores NAFTA whenever it feels like it, why would this be different.
 
The Overlord said:
I can't say anything about Mexico, but the Canadian political system is a mx of the UK and US systems, with a constitution was drawn up in 1982. So I don't see how Canadian society is that different from the US':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Canada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms

As economies, you have look at scale. The only reason the US economy is "better" than the Canadian one is because Canadian is far smaller than the US, with about a tenth of the population. For a country of canada's size, we have a very good economy, just because we can't beat the uS ecomomic doesn't mean our economy is bad shape. No coffee chain could complete with starbucks, but they can do well on their own and make a good profit. Notice how at times in the past months that Canadian dollar was worth than the US green back. The US would likely benefit ecomnomically from such a union.

Really I don't see how the US would be the loser here, they could easily bully Canada and Mexico to following their will, rather than the other way around. Really how is Canada going to "force" the US to do anything? The US government ignores NAFTA whenever it feels like it, why would this be different.
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I can understand what you are saying, but why would Canadians want to "be under the thumb" of the US? I know your economy is good, the article I read about this subject was a couple of years old. But I haven't been shown proof to why this would be a GOOD idea. I like the US Constitution. I don't want anything to overshadow it. The people that wrote it were far smarter and more Humanitarian than anyone in existance today. They fought long and hard for those freedoms on that document. We must preserve it's legacy. I believe that if any country wants to become apart of the US, that is fine, but not another Governmental Layer over the Federal Government.
 
SupermanBeyond said:
I can understand what you are saying, but why would Canadians want to "be under the thumb" of the US? I know your economy is good, the article I read about this subject was a couple of years old. But I haven't been shown proof to why this would be a GOOD idea. I like the US Constitution. I don't want anything to overshadow it. The people that wrote it were far smarter and more Humanitarian than anyone in existance today. They fought long and hard for those freedoms on that document. We must preserve it's legacy. I believe that if any country wants to become apart of the US, that is fine, but not another Governmental Layer over the Federal Government.
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I never said it was a good idea, I just said it wouldn't be "bad" for the US, because they would have most of the power in this new union. Canadian nationalism (the desire to not be overshadowed by the US, basically) would make it unpopular here.

The Canadian constitution is pretty similar to the US, the biggest difference is it has some elements from the UK political system thrown in. So its not like Canada has some laws that allow the government to arrest people at random, so I don't see how the societies are uncompatable in that regard. Plus as I said, Canada would have no power to force the US to do anything in such a union.
 
The Overlord said:
I never said it was a good idea, I just said it wouldn't be "bad" for the US, because they would have most of the power in this new union. Canadian nationalism (the desire to not be overshadowed by the US, basically) would make it unpopular here.

The Canadian constitution is pretty similar to the US, the biggest difference is it has some elements from the UK political system thrown in. So its not like Canada has some laws that allow the government to arrest people at random, so I don't see how the societies are uncompatable in that regard. Plus as I said, Canada would have no power to force the US to do anything in such a union.
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Other posters said that this is a good idea without saying Why and how this is a good idea. Without really looking at the Political/Economic impact of such an Idea. I think you and I are on the same page except I see this as bad for all parties. Not just the United States.
 
SupermanBeyond said:
Other posters said that this is a good idea without saying Why and how this is a good idea. Without really looking at the Political/Economic impact of such an Idea. I think you and I are on the same page except I see this as bad for all parties. Not just the United States.
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I don't see how it be that bad for the US. Look at NAFTA, whenever NAFTA sides with Canada on a trade issue, the US government just ignores the decision and does whatever it wants anyway.
 
The Overlord said:
I don't see how it be that bad for the US. Look at NAFTA, whenever NAFTA sides with Canada on a trade issue, the US government just ignores the decision and does whatever it wants anyway.
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I go back to my post with the 3 possibilities. We could lose our Constitution.
 
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