Discussion: The Second Amendment III

Discussion in 'Politics' started by SV Fan, Dec 21, 2012.

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  1. SV Fan

    SV Fan Well-Known Member

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    The NRA biggest members are gun manufacturers and stores. Joining the group just means you will be funding their lobby group to push gun legislation for those groups.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/nra-...wners-colorado-theater-shooting-batman-2012-7

    It's not like they listen to their members and wage policy on the basis of majority opinion
     
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  2. wiegeabo

    wiegeabo Omniposcient

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    And what happens when you start increasing the numbers in that organization that aren't happy with that?

    Either the organization changes, or the demand for changes deepens the divide, and the new comers convince the unsatisfied old members to create a new organization where they have more control.

    Something needs to happen to either change the NRA or cut its influence if this is all they can constantly come up with when these things happen.
     
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  3. The Overlord

    The Overlord Well-Known Member

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  4. Thundercrack85

    Thundercrack85 Well-Known Member

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    America has a rather unique history with guns. Most Europeans never had a chance to own firearms. In America it was essential for much of history.
     
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  5. jmc

    jmc away for a while

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    Ok, so I saw an interview on youtube with some dude advocating teachers in the US should have firearms and be taught how to use them. As an outsider all I can say is that line of thinking boggles my mind, if a deranged killer is going to go around and shoot up a school it wouldn't matter how many teachers had firearms and proper training, that nut job is going to do it regardless. If every teacher had firearms that would suddenly make a psycho rethink his actions? Seriously? All that would do is put more people in harms way, the more guns you have in a volatile situation such as that the bigger the risk is to everyone else, the situation becomes worse. For argument sake lets say teachers are given firearms, what person would want to work in an environment like that? The risk of death or injury is accepted in law enforcement and the military, it comes with the occupation, but teaching? It seems like the answer is a plain as the nose on a face but for whatever reason people in the US don't want to admit it or worse don't want to do it because they equate it to 'losing their freedom'. God, I'm glad kids in my country don't have to put up with the same risks.
     
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  6. Thundercrack85

    Thundercrack85 Well-Known Member

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    I think people need to calm down, and look at the figures. School shootings are rare. It was until now, almost unheard of for someone to shoot up an elementary school.

    High schools are a different matter. Most already have armed police. But they're not there to be on the look out for random spree killers.

    The notion that there should be armed security at every elementary school is ridiculous. Not to mention unfeasible.

    The idea of arming every elementary school teacher is even more ridiculous.
     
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  7. Hawkingbird

    Hawkingbird I want to be Kate Bishop

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    Do you think guns will ever be de-legalized? I know control seems to be being speculated, but does anyone think all states will ever agree to change the constitution?
     
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  8. Thundercrack85

    Thundercrack85 Well-Known Member

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    Unlikely. Even most people in favor of gun control seem reluctant to go that far.

    Some future technologies will shake things up though. Right now they have prototype "smart guns". They make use of sensors (some more sophisticated than others) so that only the gun's owner (or designated user) can fire them.

    Over the next 20 years, those will become a lot more common, if not standardized.

    Still, the first semiautomatic handgun still works fine today (100+ years later). And we have some 150-year old revolvers that still work, so the guns we have now will work well into the 2100's.
     
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  9. dnno1

    dnno1 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that is really the issue here. What most people want is the assurance that a firearm won't get into the hands of a criminal nor someone who is mentally ill and if they do have one, that is be seized.

    Here is a list of schools shootings since the latter part of the 1960's:

    Sure, if you only consider the deadliest shootings that received national attention, you can count about 17 or so within the past 50 years. The thing is that this does not consider the fact that every year around 8% of students from grades 9-12 have reported being threatened or injured with a weapon (be it a knife or a gun) at least once that year. It also doesn't consider the deadly shootings at schools on a state by state basis. Just the State of Washington alone has had 9 shootings since 1994. Schools shootings are not rare at all. The fact of the matter is that they don't get reported enough.
     
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  10. Fading

    Fading ---

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    I saw a similar interview on the news yesterday. Where someone said all teachers should be trained in firearms, and should have to take a course before being hired. The host of the show then said, "Well, what about the children today who just have a passion for teaching. Who just want to go to college, get a job teaching a subject they're passionate about to future generations. What if they don't want to even pick up a gun?" Then the guest said he wouldn't want his child in that teacher's classroom....

    Yup, apparently to some ppl, a teacher's ability to hand themselves in a fire fight is more important than their ability to educate. So don't feel bad, I live here, and I don't understand this line of thinking. If anything, I think it promotes violence down the line. When grade school kids walk around school noticing a guy with a gun on his hip is watching them everytime they enter the hall way. That makes kids feel less secure, and simply makes seeing ppl armed with weapons a normal thing.




    Personally, I just don't see how that's a solution. The answer to a problem isn't to add more fuel. Turning grade schools into western shootout's isn't solving the problem. Especially if the shooter is more proficient than the bodyguard, and the shooter has a bigger gun, a year's worth of planning, and body armor. Keeping a maniac armed to the teeth from entering the school in the first place is the solution. I'm not saying we ban guns, I don't believe that will solve things, as I think that'll turn out like the war on drugs, and the prohibition (though I'd be fine with an assault weapons bad, and further defining what an assault weapon is). However, simply arming everyone isn't the solution either. If anything, that makes the situation worse.
     
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  11. The Overlord

    The Overlord Well-Known Member

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    Well it seems like that has created a lot of social problems and really guns are not as necessary in America as they would be in the 18th century. People on this thread keep on saying that stricter gun laws wouldn't prevent or reduce gun violence and yet we do have other countries with stricter gun control laws that don't have the same social problems with guns. It also seems like other Western democracies wouldn't have an unhealthy cultural obsession with guns, which contributes to these social problems.

    Who should be the US' peers that it compares itself to, other Western democracies or some narco state?
     
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  12. Victarion

    Victarion Iron Captain

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    People who enjoy the profession would still teach. If they went all the way with the doors/windows I suggested, then competent teachers with a security firearm would make it easier to put your hypothetical shooter down.
     
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  13. jmc

    jmc away for a while

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    But it's not going to stop him is it? So what's the point? All you're doing is making matters worse and further putting kids in harms way. And people would still teach? Seriously? It's a profession that's not meant to come with the possibility of being shot. If you think having to carry a firearm won't turn people away then you're nuts.
     
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  14. Victarion

    Victarion Iron Captain

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    The thing is, part of the training involves knowing when to pull your gun and when not to. Teaching doesn't come with the possibility of being shut. I didn't say it would deter someone hellbent on going off; I only said it'd make it easier to put the hypothetical shooter down if necessary.
     
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  15. Thundercrack85

    Thundercrack85 Well-Known Member

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    America is rather unique. Only thing close is Canada, which has one-tenth of the US' population.

    I can't see Americans ever disarming themselves. It's a lot easier to have gun control in countries with a history of oppressive governments, and an unarmed populace (England for example).
     
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  16. dnno1

    dnno1 Well-Known Member

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    America is not unique. Yemen has a right to bear arms clause in it's constitution and they have about the same homicide rate due to firearms as the United States. Once again the issue is gun control not gun disarmament.
     
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  17. Fading

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    I'm sorry, it's just the more I think about the idea of arming our schools, the more ridiculous it's sounding. I have trouble grasping that we're (as a nation) taking this conversation seriously.

    Plus, honestly, what does it solve? Let's say a teacher taken by surprise by a man with a much deadlier gun, and body armor, puts him down. Then the next psycho just escalates things to explosives. We're talking about ppl with a desire to end their life after causing something the entire nation will talk about. A bodyguard, or a teacher with remedial gun training isn't going to scare them off, they already plan on dying. Even if it somehow does, they'll simply move their target to a less secure, crowded area.

    This is like losing a limb, pouring salt on it, putting a bandaid on top, and saying everything is fine now. That's not even mentioning psychological damage children might suffer from both seeing armed ppl on a daily basis, and it giving them a constant feeling that their life it constantly in danger. It doesn't solve anything, and I'm not even counting if the teachers, or guard decide to go postal. As there have been news stories, and youtube videos of teachers hitting students (now slap a loaded gun on their hip).

    Heck, for all we know, it can make the body count higher. What if there are multiple assailants, and the lone guard loses. What if the killers only originally planned on shooting randomly, and instead the fire fight ticks them off, and they go in massacre mode.

    Edit -BTW, this rant was about the media, not this thread. I just heard this being talked over seriously, again. I'm having one of those moments where it feels like the world is either going insane, or ******ed, lol. Just nice to vent on the forums from time to time.
     
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  18. Thundercrack85

    Thundercrack85 Well-Known Member

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    Compared to other Western democracies, it is.

    And yes it is. Look at its history. The only thing close are Canada, and to a lesser extent Australia (both frontier countries, colonized by Westerners).
     
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  19. dnno1

    dnno1 Well-Known Member

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    Last I checked, Switzerland has a right to bear arms. So does Mexico. Like I said before, the US of A is not unique.
     
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  20. dnno1

    dnno1 Well-Known Member

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    TO LIVE AND DIE IN AMERICA


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  21. Victarion

    Victarion Iron Captain

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  22. jmc

    jmc away for a while

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    How does it make it easier? If all the variables go in favour of the teachers? How do you know the gunman hasn't scoped out the school before hand and works out a plan that maximizes casualties in spite of teachers having firearms?
     
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  23. Thundercrack85

    Thundercrack85 Well-Known Member

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    Good luck getting a gun in Mexico. If you're not in a cartel, I mean.
     
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  24. Thundercrack85

    Thundercrack85 Well-Known Member

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    Seems to be a rule, the place you want / need a gun the most, it's the hardest to get.
     
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  25. Spider-Who?

    Spider-Who? ERMERGERD!

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    Actually, studies show that the vast majority of gun related violence such as this are in gun-free zones. You only have to look at the locations of mass shootings in the US and around the world to see this. How many killings have taken place at a gun range, by comparison?

    I don't think anyone is saying that teachers SHOULD carry guns. Its the idea that if a teacher has a license and the proper training, then they should have the ABILITY to carry their gun if they so choose.

    Yes, it's a terrible thought that we live in a world were a place that should be as safe as a school is so open to danger, but no one is willing to accept that something needs to be done. Allow teachers to carry their gun? HELL NO! Have a police officer -a symbol of law and protection - at each school? IT'LL SCARE THE CHILDREN! The anti-gun people absolutely refuse to even discuss possibilities that would actually work, in favor of pushing their political agenda (or refusing to accept the ugly reality) on a "solution" that has historical evidence to not do a damn thing.
     
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