Discussion: The Second Amendment III

[SV Fan]

Something that gets me is that there are millions of people who want gun control and hate the NRA because they don't want gun control.

Well, there's 4 million members in the NRA. If more than 4 million gun control advocates joined the NRA, we'd have gun control.

The NRA biggest members are gun manufacturers and stores. Joining the group just means you will be funding their lobby group to push gun legislation for those groups.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nra-...wners-colorado-theater-shooting-batman-2012-7

A new poll conducted by Republican Party strategist and pollster Frank Luntz finds that, surprisingly, most NRA members and gun owners support more restrictive members on gun ownership.

The poll was commissioned by Mayors Against Illegal Guns, which is co-chaired by New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg.


The poll, which surveyed 945 gun owners, was conducted in May, long before last Friday's horrific movie-theater shooting during a screening of "The Dark Knight Rises" in Aurora, Colorado. Still, some of the findings are pretty surprising:

• 87 percent of NRA members agree that support for Second Amendment rights goes hand-in-hand with keeping guns out of the hands of criminals.
• 74 percent support requiring criminal background checks of anyone purchasing a gun.
• 79 percent support requiring gun retailers to perform background checks on all employees.
• 75 percent believe concealed carry permits should only be granted to applicants who have not committed any violent misdemeanors, including assault.
• 74 percent believe permits should only be granted to applicants who have completed gun safety training.
• 71 percent believe people on terror watch lists should be prevented from purchasing guns (actually, this is kind of surprising in how low it ranks).

It's not like they listen to their members and wage policy on the basis of majority opinion

 

[wiegeabo]

And what happens when you start increasing the numbers in that organization that aren't happy with that?

Either the organization changes, or the demand for changes deepens the divide, and the new comers convince the unsatisfied old members to create a new organization where they have more control.

Something needs to happen to either change the NRA or cut its influence if this is all they can constantly come up with when these things happen.

 

[The Overlord]

Here is a good question, why does the US have far more gun violence then other Western democracies? If it is not a difference in gun control laws, then what is the cause of this disparity?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/20/us-guns-statistics-outlier_n_2331892.html

 

[Thundercrack85]

America has a rather unique history with guns. Most Europeans never had a chance to own firearms. In America it was essential for much of history.

 

[jmc]

Ok, so I saw an interview on youtube with some dude advocating teachers in the US should have firearms and be taught how to use them. As an outsider all I can say is that line of thinking boggles my mind, if a deranged killer is going to go around and shoot up a school it wouldn't matter how many teachers had firearms and proper training, that nut job is going to do it regardless. If every teacher had firearms that would suddenly make a psycho rethink his actions? Seriously? All that would do is put more people in harms way, the more guns you have in a volatile situation such as that the bigger the risk is to everyone else, the situation becomes worse. For argument sake lets say teachers are given firearms, what person would want to work in an environment like that? The risk of death or injury is accepted in law enforcement and the military, it comes with the occupation, but teaching? It seems like the answer is a plain as the nose on a face but for whatever reason people in the US don't want to admit it or worse don't want to do it because they equate it to 'losing their freedom'. God, I'm glad kids in my country don't have to put up with the same risks.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I think people need to calm down, and look at the figures. School shootings are rare. It was until now, almost unheard of for someone to shoot up an elementary school.

High schools are a different matter. Most already have armed police. But they're not there to be on the look out for random spree killers.

The notion that there should be armed security at every elementary school is ridiculous. Not to mention unfeasible.

The idea of arming every elementary school teacher is even more ridiculous.

 

[Hawkingbird]

Do you think guns will ever be de-legalized? I know control seems to be being speculated, but does anyone think all states will ever agree to change the constitution?

 

[Thundercrack85]

Unlikely. Even most people in favor of gun control seem reluctant to go that far.

Some future technologies will shake things up though. Right now they have prototype "smart guns". They make use of sensors (some more sophisticated than others) so that only the gun's owner (or designated user) can fire them.

Over the next 20 years, those will become a lot more common, if not standardized.

Still, the first semiautomatic handgun still works fine today (100+ years later). And we have some 150-year old revolvers that still work, so the guns we have now will work well into the 2100's.

 

[dnno1]

Do you think guns will ever be de-legalized? I know control seems to be being speculated, but does anyone think all states will ever agree to change the constitution?

I don't think that is really the issue here. What most people want is the assurance that a firearm won't get into the hands of a criminal nor someone who is mentally ill and if they do have one, that is be seized.

I think people need to calm down, and look at the figures. School shootings are rare. It was until now, almost unheard of for someone to shoot up an elementary school.

High schools are a different matter. Most already have armed police. But they're not there to be on the look out for random spree killers.

The notion that there should be armed security at every elementary school is ridiculous. Not to mention unfeasible.

The idea of arming every elementary school teacher is even more ridiculous.

Here is a list of schools shootings since the latter part of the 1960's:

• April 2, 2012 – One L. Goh, 43, allegedly fired a .45-caliber semi-automatic handgun at Oikos University in Fullerton, Calif. He is accused of killing seven people and injuring three others, before fleeing the scene. Goh drove to a supermarket, where he surrendered to police. Goh has pleaded not guilty to the charges and is currently awaiting trial.

• Feb. 27, 2012 -- T.J. Lane, 17, used a .22-caliber semiautomatic Ruger handgun taken from his uncle's home to kill three students and injure two others in a cafeteria at Chardon High School in Chardon, Ohio. Lane, who is being tried as an adult, faces three counts of aggravated murder, two counts of attempted aggravated murder and one count of felonious assault. He has pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. Lane's trial is slated to begin Jan. 14.

• Feb. 14, 2008 -- Steven Kazmierczak, 27, entered a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University in DeKalb, Ill., killing five people and injuring 21 others, before committing suicide.

• April 16, 2007 -- Seung-Hui Cho, 23, kills 32 people before committing suicide on the Virginia Tech campus in Blacksburg, Va.

• Oct. 2, 2006 – Charles Carl Roberts IV, 32, took a Springfield XD .9mm handgun and entered an Amish one-room schoolhouse in Bart Township, Pa. Roberts killed five girls and injured five others, before committing suicide.

• March 21, 2005 – Jeffrey Weise, 16, uses a .22-caliber pistol to kill his grandfather and his grandfather’s girlfriend. Weise then took his grandfather’s .40-caliber Glock 23 pistol and a Remington 870 12-gauge shotgun and drove to Red Lake Senior High School in Red Lake, Minn. There, Weise killed 5 students, a teacher and a security guard, and injured 5 students. After a shoot-out with police, he committed suicide.

• April 20, 1999 -- Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, opened fire at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., killing 12 classmates and a teacher and wounding 26 others before killing themselves in the school's library.

• May 21, 1998 – A day after killing his parents with a .22 Ruger rifle, Kip Kinkel, 16, took a .9mm Glock 19 pistol, a Ruger .22-caliber semi-automatic rifle and a .22-caliber Ruger MK II pistol to Thurston High School in Springfield, Ore., where he killed two more people and injured 25 others. Kinkel later pleaded guilty to murder and attempted murder just before a trial was to begin. He was sentenced to 111 years in prison.

• March 24, 1998 – Mitchell Johnson, 13, and Andrew Gold, 11, drove to Westside Middle School near Jonesboro, Ark., where they killed four students and a teacher, and wounded nine other students and a teacher. The boys were sentenced to confinement until they reached age 21. Johnson was released in 2005, and Golden was released in 2007. As an adult, Johnson later was convicted on various state and federal charges involving weapons and drugs, and is serving 22 years in prison.

• Dec. 1, 1997 -- Michael Carneal, 14, fires a .22-caliber pistol at a youth prayer group meeting before the school days begins at Heath High School in Paducah, Ky. Three people were killed, and five injured. The victims ranged in age from 14 to 17. Carneal was sentenced to life in prison, with the possibility of parole in 25 years. His attorneys are asking the U.S. 6th Circuit Court of Appeals to withdraw his verdict due to mental illness at the time.

• May 25, 1994 – Clay Shrout, 17, took a .380-caliber pistol and killed his mother, father, and his two sisters in their Florence, Ky., home. Shrout then drove his prom date’s house and kidnapped her. Shrout took her to Ryle High School, where he held 22 students and a teacher hostage. The ordeal ended after 17 minutes when Shrout surrendered to a police officer. Shrout pleaded guilty but mentally ill and was sentenced to live in prison.

• May 1, 1992 -- Eric Houston, 20, went to Lindhurst High School in Olivehurst, Calif. There, he used a 12-gauge shotgun and a .22-caliber rifle to kill three students and one teacher, and injure 10 other people. Houston was found guilty on multiple charges and sentenced to death. He is currently awaiting execution.

• Nov. 1, 1991 – Gang Lu, 28, went to the University of Iowa in Iowa City, Iowa, and opened fire with a .38-caliber revolver. Lu killed four faculty members and one student, and injured another student. Afterward, he committed suicide.

• Jan. 17, 1989 – Patrick Edward Purdy, 24, opened fire with a Type 56 Assault Rifle at Cleveland Elementary School in Stockton, Calif. He killed five students, and injured 29 other students and one teacher. Purdy then used a pistol to commit suicide.

• Jan. 29, 1979 – Brenda Spencer, 16, took a .22-caliber rifle that her father had given her as a Christmas present and went to a window in her San Diego, Calif., home. She then began firing at Grover Cleveland Elementary School across the street. She killed a principal and a teacher, and injured eight students and a police officer. Spencer pleaded guilty to murder, and is serving a prison sentence of 25 years to life.

• July 12, 1976 -- Edward Charles Allaway, 37, a custodian at California State University, Fullerton, killed seven co-workers and wounded two others. Allaway was found not guilty by reason of insanity and committed to a mental institution. In 2001, his psychiatrists said his paranoid schizophrenia was in remission, but a judge rejected his request to be released.

• Aug. 1, 1966 – Charles Whitman, 25, climbed a clock tower at the University of Texas in Austin, carrying various weapons including three rifles and a shotgun. He killed 16 people and injured 32 others, before being shot to death by a police officer.

Sure, if you only consider the deadliest shootings that received national attention, you can count about 17 or so within the past 50 years. The thing is that this does not consider the fact that every year around 8% of students from grades 9-12 have reported being threatened or injured with a weapon (be it a knife or a gun) at least once that year. It also doesn't consider the deadly shootings at schools on a state by state basis. Just the State of Washington alone has had 9 shootings since 1994. Schools shootings are not rare at all. The fact of the matter is that they don't get reported enough.

 

[Fading]

Ok, so I saw an interview on youtube with some dude advocating teachers in the US should have firearms and be taught how to use them. As an outsider all I can say is that line of thinking boggles my mind, if a deranged killer is going to go around and shoot up a school it wouldn't matter how many teachers had firearms and proper training, that nut job is going to do it regardless. If every teacher had firearms that would suddenly make a psycho rethink his actions? Seriously? All that would do is put more people in harms way, the more guns you have in a volatile situation such as that the bigger the risk is to everyone else, the situation becomes worse. For argument sake lets say teachers are given firearms, what person would want to work in an environment like that? The risk of death or injury is accepted in law enforcement and the military, it comes with the occupation, but teaching? It seems like the answer is a plain as the nose on a face but for whatever reason people in the US don't want to admit it or worse don't want to do it because they equate it to 'losing their freedom'. God, I'm glad kids in my country don't have to put up with the same risks.

I saw a similar interview on the news yesterday. Where someone said all teachers should be trained in firearms, and should have to take a course before being hired. The host of the show then said, "Well, what about the children today who just have a passion for teaching. Who just want to go to college, get a job teaching a subject they're passionate about to future generations. What if they don't want to even pick up a gun?" Then the guest said he wouldn't want his child in that teacher's classroom....

Yup, apparently to some ppl, a teacher's ability to hand themselves in a fire fight is more important than their ability to educate. So don't feel bad, I live here, and I don't understand this line of thinking. If anything, I think it promotes violence down the line. When grade school kids walk around school noticing a guy with a gun on his hip is watching them everytime they enter the hall way. That makes kids feel less secure, and simply makes seeing ppl armed with weapons a normal thing.




Personally, I just don't see how that's a solution. The answer to a problem isn't to add more fuel. Turning grade schools into western shootout's isn't solving the problem. Especially if the shooter is more proficient than the bodyguard, and the shooter has a bigger gun, a year's worth of planning, and body armor. Keeping a maniac armed to the teeth from entering the school in the first place is the solution. I'm not saying we ban guns, I don't believe that will solve things, as I think that'll turn out like the war on drugs, and the prohibition (though I'd be fine with an assault weapons bad, and further defining what an assault weapon is). However, simply arming everyone isn't the solution either. If anything, that makes the situation worse.

 

[The Overlord]

America has a rather unique history with guns. Most Europeans never had a chance to own firearms. In America it was essential for much of history.

Well it seems like that has created a lot of social problems and really guns are not as necessary in America as they would be in the 18th century. People on this thread keep on saying that stricter gun laws wouldn't prevent or reduce gun violence and yet we do have other countries with stricter gun control laws that don't have the same social problems with guns. It also seems like other Western democracies wouldn't have an unhealthy cultural obsession with guns, which contributes to these social problems.

Who should be the US' peers that it compares itself to, other Western democracies or some narco state?

 

[Victarion]

Ok, so I saw an interview on youtube with some dude advocating teachers in the US should have firearms and be taught how to use them. As an outsider all I can say is that line of thinking boggles my mind, if a deranged killer is going to go around and shoot up a school it wouldn't matter how many teachers had firearms and proper training, that nut job is going to do it regardless. If every teacher had firearms that would suddenly make a psycho rethink his actions? Seriously? All that would do is put more people in harms way, the more guns you have in a volatile situation such as that the bigger the risk is to everyone else, the situation becomes worse. For argument sake lets say teachers are given firearms, what person would want to work in an environment like that? The risk of death or injury is accepted in law enforcement and the military, it comes with the occupation, but teaching? It seems like the answer is a plain as the nose on a face but for whatever reason people in the US don't want to admit it or worse don't want to do it because they equate it to 'losing their freedom'. God, I'm glad kids in my country don't have to put up with the same risks.

People who enjoy the profession would still teach. If they went all the way with the doors/windows I suggested, then competent teachers with a security firearm would make it easier to put your hypothetical shooter down.

 

[jmc]

People who enjoy the profession would still teach. If they went all the way with the doors/windows I suggested, then competent teachers with a security firearm would make it easier to put your hypothetical shooter down.

But it's not going to stop him is it? So what's the point? All you're doing is making matters worse and further putting kids in harms way. And people would still teach? Seriously? It's a profession that's not meant to come with the possibility of being shot. If you think having to carry a firearm won't turn people away then you're nuts.

 

[Victarion]

The thing is, part of the training involves knowing when to pull your gun and when not to. Teaching doesn't come with the possibility of being shut. I didn't say it would deter someone hellbent on going off; I only said it'd make it easier to put the hypothetical shooter down if necessary.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well it seems like that has created a lot of social problems and really guns are not as necessary in America as they would be in the 18th century. People on this thread keep on saying that stricter gun laws wouldn't prevent or reduce gun violence and yet we do have other countries with stricter gun control laws that don't have the same social problems with guns. It also seems like other Western democracies wouldn't have an unhealthy cultural obsession with guns, which contributes to these social problems.

Who should be the US' peers that it compares itself to, other Western democracies or some narco state?

America is rather unique. Only thing close is Canada, which has one-tenth of the US' population.

I can't see Americans ever disarming themselves. It's a lot easier to have gun control in countries with a history of oppressive governments, and an unarmed populace (England for example).

 

[dnno1]

America is rather unique. Only thing close is Canada, which has one-tenth of the US' population.

I can't see Americans ever disarming themselves. It's a lot easier to have gun control in countries with a history of oppressive governments, and an unarmed populace (England for example).

America is not unique. Yemen has a right to bear arms clause in it's constitution and they have about the same homicide rate due to firearms as the United States. Once again the issue is gun control not gun disarmament.

 

[Fading]

I'm sorry, it's just the more I think about the idea of arming our schools, the more ridiculous it's sounding. I have trouble grasping that we're (as a nation) taking this conversation seriously.

Plus, honestly, what does it solve? Let's say a teacher taken by surprise by a man with a much deadlier gun, and body armor, puts him down. Then the next psycho just escalates things to explosives. We're talking about ppl with a desire to end their life after causing something the entire nation will talk about. A bodyguard, or a teacher with remedial gun training isn't going to scare them off, they already plan on dying. Even if it somehow does, they'll simply move their target to a less secure, crowded area.

This is like losing a limb, pouring salt on it, putting a bandaid on top, and saying everything is fine now. That's not even mentioning psychological damage children might suffer from both seeing armed ppl on a daily basis, and it giving them a constant feeling that their life it constantly in danger. It doesn't solve anything, and I'm not even counting if the teachers, or guard decide to go postal. As there have been news stories, and youtube videos of teachers hitting students (now slap a loaded gun on their hip).

Heck, for all we know, it can make the body count higher. What if there are multiple assailants, and the lone guard loses. What if the killers only originally planned on shooting randomly, and instead the fire fight ticks them off, and they go in massacre mode.

Edit -BTW, this rant was about the media, not this thread. I just heard this being talked over seriously, again. I'm having one of those moments where it feels like the world is either going insane, or guitared, lol. Just nice to vent on the forums from time to time.

 

[Thundercrack85]

America is not unique. Yemen has a right to bear arms clause in it's constitution and they have about the same homicide rate due to firearms as the United States. Once again the issue is gun control not gun disarmament.

Compared to other Western democracies, it is.

And yes it is. Look at its history. The only thing close are Canada, and to a lesser extent Australia (both frontier countries, colonized by Westerners).

 

[dnno1]

Compared to other Western democracies, it is.

And yes it is. Look at its history. The only thing close are Canada, and to a lesser extent Australia (both frontier countries, colonized by Westerners).

Last I checked, Switzerland has a right to bear arms. So does Mexico. Like I said before, the US of A is not unique.

 

[dnno1]

TO LIVE AND DIE IN AMERICA

​

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[Victarion]

http://kontradictions.wordpress.com...ew-the-assault-weapons-ban-well-ill-tell-you/

Argue and debate amongst yourselves.

 

[jmc]

The thing is, part of the training involves knowing when to pull your gun and when not to. Teaching doesn't come with the possibility of being shut. I didn't say it would deter someone hellbent on going off; I only said it'd make it easier to put the hypothetical shooter down if necessary.

How does it make it easier? If all the variables go in favour of the teachers? How do you know the gunman hasn't scoped out the school before hand and works out a plan that maximizes casualties in spite of teachers having firearms?

 

[Thundercrack85]

Last I checked, Switzerland has a right to bear arms. So does Mexico. Like I said before, the US of A is not unique.

Good luck getting a gun in Mexico. If you're not in a cartel, I mean.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Seems to be a rule, the place you want / need a gun the most, it's the hardest to get.

 

[Spider-Who?]

But it's not going to stop him is it? So what's the point?

Actually, studies show that the vast majority of gun related violence such as this are in gun-free zones. You only have to look at the locations of mass shootings in the US and around the world to see this. How many killings have taken place at a gun range, by comparison?

All you're doing is making matters worse and further putting kids in harms way. And people would still teach? Seriously? It's a profession that's not meant to come with the possibility of being shot.

If you think having to carry a firearm won't turn people away then you're nuts.

I don't think anyone is saying that teachers SHOULD carry guns. Its the idea that if a teacher has a license and the proper training, then they should have the ABILITY to carry their gun if they so choose.

Yes, it's a terrible thought that we live in a world were a place that should be as safe as a school is so open to danger, but no one is willing to accept that something needs to be done. Allow teachers to carry their gun? HELL NO! Have a police officer -a symbol of law and protection - at each school? IT'LL SCARE THE CHILDREN! The anti-gun people absolutely refuse to even discuss possibilities that would actually work, in favor of pushing their political agenda (or refusing to accept the ugly reality) on a "solution" that has historical evidence to not do a damn thing.