Do you accept the theory of evolution?

[DBryan]

Watch from about 7:15, on why faith is NOT a virtue.

[YT]DAuFJKQh83Y[/YT]

 

[Hobgoblin]

The Amazing Atheist, one of the more interesting channels on youtube. For once, he made a video that I can post here on the Hype due to the lack of cursing every other word.

 

[SuperFerret]

Why must it be about seeking truth?

 

[DBryan]

In Quantum Physics, particles appear in and out of our space-time continuum all the time. It verifiable, tested and occurs. So, yes, something can come from nothing, or at least how Quantum Theory defines "nothing".

And what you have to understand that in terms of the Big Bang, there was no such thing as "before." Before is a term that we use to describe the passage of time which has no bearing at all when the very beginning of time was the expansion of our current space-time continuum. What came before is meaningless. There was no before.

I can certainly understand that concept is hard to wrap your mind around.

Bill, I don't think it has been established what was 'before'. I don't think there is a scientific consensus on what was before the big bang.

It seems to me that the current best answer given the limited information available is 'I don't know'. I am fine with 'I don't know'.

I am unaware of any established theory stating 'turns out reality is finite and began with the big bang'. As far as I'm aware, the big bang theory only explains an expansion event of the Universe, and says nothing about the state of the universe before.

 

[8wid]

Honestly with the hypothesis or theory of the multiverse theory saying any form of possible existence being eternally recreated in an infinite number of ways, I may not say it's impossible to have a divinely created planet just as I would say planets may be really made out of pizza and stars out of rock candy and maybe where a celestial teapot or a flying pasta monster can exist.

 

[Bill]

Here is a video and a flash animation that show both the scale of the Universe and individual objects.

[YT]17jymDn0W6U[/YT]

Scale of the Universe

 

[8wid]

From Universe to Multiverse

 

[Marvolo]

From Universe to Multiverse

That video right there shows how religion asks the wrong questions. Rather than being amazed at these new discoveries and ideas, religion would rather bury its head in the sand in fear. These new ideas turn their way of life on its head and it threatens their order. Who cares how many saints or popes are in an alternate universe, or whether there are other Trinities of God. These things have nothing to do with science or these discoveries.

 

[Thundercrack85]

That's because every new discovery chips away at religion. That's why they tried to kill Galileo, and why creationists today try to stop evolution from being taught in school.

 

[Marvolo]

And look what happened. The church pardoned Galileo. It took them hundreds of years to formally do it, but they did it. It might take hundreds of years, but eventually religion will accept evolution, or at least that creation didn't happen as the holy texts state. My point in saying that is that I wish religion would just accept that they are on the way out in terms of running society and our thoughts, and let science do what it does best which is broadening our horizons. I'm not saying religion has to go away, but I'm sick of it getting in the way of science.

This video here really sums up how I feel about science and the universe. I wish everyone could feel this way about science or at least understand how important it is.
Neil DeGrasse and the Universe
[YT]6RjW5-4IiSc&feature=related[/YT]

 

[Thundercrack85]

The church will lose all relevance in time. It is already starting to. Hence why the church now proselytizes more heavily than ever in less developed countries.

Science is the ultimate undoing of religion. You can't blame religion for trying to oppose what will inevitably destroy it.

Evolution arguably brought about the most drastic decline of religion in the UK. Though it started with the Enlightenment. But then you can only have so many senseless, bloody religious wars before it begins to lose popularity.

 

[Marvolo]

Erosion of Progress by Religion

[YT]6oxTMUTOz0w&feature=related[/YT]

Another video by Neil Degrasse where he talks about how the Middle East was the center point of enlightenment from 800-1100 AD and how progress hasn't recovered since. Why hasn't it recovered? Religion. In 1158 Mathematics were deemed to be a philosophy of the devil, and it completely curtailed the drive of scientific progress.. It is an interesting watch, and I encourage everyone to watch it. I myself did not realize just how much of science has Arabic names and middle eastern roots.

I hope no one thinks I'm on a crusade against religion with some of these videos I've posted or any I may post. I just think this is fascinating things, and worth knowing. I respect the beliefs of others, and hope no one takes it personally. It isn't meant that way.

 

[WildcatNC]

And look what happened. The church pardoned Galileo. It took them hundreds of years to formally do it, but they did it. It might take hundreds of years, but eventually religion will accept evolution, or at least that creation didn't happen as the holy texts state. My point in saying that is that I wish religion would just accept that they are on the way out in terms of running society and our thoughts, and let science do what it does best which is broadening our horizons. I'm not saying religion has to go away, but I'm sick of it getting in the way of science.

This video here really sums up how I feel about science and the universe. I wish everyone could feel this way about science or at least understand how important it is.
Neil DeGrasse and the Universe
[YT]6RjW5-4IiSc&feature=related[/YT]

Erosion of Progress by Religion

[YT]6oxTMUTOz0w&feature=related[/YT]

Another video by Neil Degrasse where he talks about how the Middle East was the center point of enlightenment from 800-1100 AD and how progress hasn't recovered since. Why hasn't it recovered? Religion. In 1158 Mathematics were deemed to be a philosophy of the devil, and it completely curtailed scientific progress. It is an interesting watch, and I encourage everyone to watch it. I myself did not realize just how much of science has Arabic names and middle eastern roots.

I hope no one thinks I'm on a crusade against religion with some of these videos I've posted or any I may post. I just think this is fascinating things, and worth knowing.

Good stuff.

 

[Hawkingbird]

I think faith is beautiful. It shows man not to be as small minded as we are make our selfs out to be. But that's all I see it as, faith. And I don't want to depend on a higher being, I want to have faith in humanity first. Even when I was a Catholic, I still believed in Evaluation.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Faith can be good thing, or a terrible thing. Depending on what you put your faith into.

 

[Marvolo]

Who are we to say we are an intelligent species?

[YT]9sDtbTsmJcE[/YT]

Last video for a while. Just wanted to leave this interesting observation before heading to bed.

P.S. Youtube is just as bad as wikipedia. I click on one link which leads me to an even more interesting link. I can't stop lol.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, assuming we encounter alien life, here on Earth, they would obviously have to be far ahead of us technologically. Ergo, smarter. And this is the popular perception. Note how often aliens are said to have massive craniums.

However, humans are the smartest animals native to Earth. Well, there may have been other primates, more intelligent than us, but we outlived them all.

I wouldn't sell human intelligence short though. Humans have incredible potential. Though unfortunately that potential goes both ways. Only a very dumb alien would underestimate humanity.

 

[Marvolo]

Well, assuming we encounter alien life, here on Earth, they would obviously have to be far ahead of us technologically. Ergo, smarter. And this is the popular perception. Note how often aliens are said to have massive craniums.

However, humans are the smartest animals native to Earth. Well, there may have been other primates, more intelligent than us, but we outlived them all.

I wouldn't sell human intelligence short though. Humans have incredible potential. Though unfortunately that potential goes both ways. Only a very dumb alien would underestimate humanity.

Look at how often chimps are underestimated, and how they have been underestimated in our species past. We would probably be little threat to a higher intelligence or merely a muse for study and hilarity as chimps are to us. I mean if we do not pose a valuable asset or offer something worthwhile there would be very little reason to contact us.

For all we know a super-species has already come and gone by this planet and logged our area of space as uninteresting or non noteworthy. If that be the case who knows if we will ever make contact. For much of our history we have been a barbaric violent species that to a higher intelligence would seem like a waste of time to even attempt to negotiate with or contact in any way.

Then you have the issue of could we even understand each other? And I don't mean on a verbal level. I mean on a cognitive level. For instance, if you could teach a lion to speak English or whatever language you speak you still would not be able to understand each other. Our cognitive processes would be so different that there would be no understanding. A higher species may reason and think in ways entirely 'alien' to us so even if we spoke the same words we would have a better chance of communicating with a junebug than with them.

We may be 'intelligent' in our own little bubble, but outside of that everything is relative. Any higher species may disregard us as we disregard the earthworm for these very reasons.

Ok, this time I'm really going to bed, lol. I'll be back on later to continue in the discussion. By the way, this is one of the best threads I've come across in this forum in a while. Good conversations going on in here.

 

[Spider-Kid]

I'm Catholic and I accept Evolution as a belief. It may be right, it may be incorrect, at least it doesn't interfere with the belief of the Bible.

 

[DBryan]

Except it kinda contradicts Genesis.

 

[Spider-Kid]

Except it kinda contradicts Genesis.

In terms of Catholic interpretation it doesn't. Read this, I've read it and it's quite interesting what Pope John Paul II has to say about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution

Quite interesting too. Even Benedict has posted positive remarks on Evolution and it is taught in Catholic schools.

 

[Sentinel X]

You asked me (by the definition of religion) whether or not UFO's were supernatural. I don't consider them to be. At least, not in the same sense as ghosts. It's advanced science vs. magic.
I guess you could go the Clarke route (i.e. any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic). But we assume that aliens operate using advanced technology. Most people who believe in ghosts, believe in magic, though they probably wouldn't use that term. To them there is nothing scientific (understandable or not) about the nature of ghosts.

I also haven't seen any credible evidence for the existence of ghosts. Though truth be told, I haven't looked either.

Assume, right? Thanks.

Because we don't know whether aliens (I'm talking about greys and similar species that have reportedly visited Earth and not aliens in general) even exist or not, secondly they are reported to do feats that completely break laws of science. However that's not considered supernatural, its "science"? Really? Even though you've never seen them and they do things that (as far as we know) can't be done in the physical universe (although theoretical physicist can feel free to speculate).

So why are aliens not considered supernatural? Assumptions aside. And how are you not a religious person (by your standards) if someone believes in something that they haven't seen and reportedly does things that can't/haven't been explained by science?

 

[SuperFerret]

If aliens exist, then they are by definition natural because they had to have come from nature. Though, one could say the same about deities as well.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

No. But that's the point. If the connection with God were something that could be measured, then it wouldn't require faith.

If you cannot measure it you do not have proof.

Right. They don't exist physically. But they certainly exist. Your point was that only physical objects exist. The electric impulses aren't the ideas. They simply show your brain is functioning.

What does your brain do as it functions? It makes ideas!

No he doesn't. God allows negative forces to exist, so as to give us a choice. But he doesn't create the conditions.

God, as creator, created all conditions. In a world in which evil can be committed, he must have made the conditions for evil to be committed.

Okay, I know that story. And in that case the ones who were slain were evil. Now again I don't accept everything in the bible at face value and the story is very simplistic. But I don't believe that God destroys the innocent. We should defend ourselves against evil, but we should look out for each other.

The children were not evil, they were insolent, like most children:

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up, baldhead,” they shouted, “go up, baldhead!” 24 The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the children to pieces.


And I got the story wrong, it was 2 bears, 42 children, not 2 children, 42 pieces.

Neither do I accept the story of Job.

Okay.

That sounds reasonable. I said from my initial post that I certainly think that some aspects of evolution are true. I simply don't believe that it means God doesn't exist. In fact, that strands of DNA tell us what traits the different species developed, that pretty much suggests that intelligence was behind the design of the various species.

No it doesn't.

[/QUOTE]It makes no sense[/QUOTE]

It makes perfect sense, you refuse to understand it.

that the species would just by luck develop their individual traits, such as survival underwater,

Other way around. Life began in water.

the different dietary needs of the various species, etc. If it were only about luck and adaptation, the different species would have likely died out before they could adapt. And then- why do species go extinct? Why don't they simply continue to adapt?

extinction occurs over the course of a 2-5 generations. Adaptation takes longer (the adaptation of regressing elephant tusks has taken around 7-10, I believe) and speciation takes several hundred.

We don't all breed. So that's not why we're here.

I said that in a general sense. By "you" I just meant a human, so if no humans breed, they go extinct.

I don't have a religion. But connecting with God is essential. He's why we live. Why we breathe. He keeps our hearts beating.

Religion is defined as the belief in a greater or supernatural power. You believe in a monotheistic God. You have a religion, just not a defined one. Just FYI, the reason why I breathe is to stay alive. And my heart continues to beat because I have neither a worn out coronary muscle, neither a faulty SAN.

No. But then I'm not denying evolution.

Moments later you say "More theories. Not proof." Because you do not understand what the word theory means.

And it still doesn't answer the question I asked. It can't.

You can't answer any questions I ask.

More theories. Not proof.

Whoa, Deja vu.

Other famous theories in science:
Gravity
Heliocentricity
Electricity
General Relativity
Germ Theory

You wanna go ahead and deny them too?

Yeah, for me. Just not for you, apparently.

It doesn't matter, something quantifiable evidence is objective, so the results will be the same for everyone. What equipment did you use? A voltmeter? Ammeter? Telescope, if so where? I'd very much like to see this quantifiable evidence.



Unless of course, you're lying.

He created us.

My mother and father created me personally.

He provides for us.

I can't speak for everyone, but France is the agricultural powerhouse in Europe.

Heals us.

I usually go to my doctor, not priest, if I'm honest.

I wouldn't call that nothing. He just expects us to do something with ourselves. Life is living in connection with God.

Since, you're so obsessed with your needing a "why", why did God create us?

Okay, so in your view I have to accept all of one belief or all of the other. I disagree.

No, you don't have to accept either. But instead, what you have done, is taken from one theory (evolution) and one hypothesis (magic) and tried to mesh them together.

So it saw the end of the universe? Then it must have seen what comes after.

There is no after. What part of that do you no understand?

I'm putting forth the belief that the universe, which is one with God, is infinite.

Well, you're wrong with that. Here's why:

If the universe is infinite, it must have an infinite number of stars. Therefore, everywhere you look in any direction, you would see a star, so the night sky would be just as bright as daylight.

The Laws of Thermodynamics. With a universe of infinite age, it would either be at the minimum temperature of -273°C or at the Absolute Hot temperature (which escapes me).

Quasars and radio galaxies are only found a long way away in the distant past. In an infinite, steady state universe, they'd be found everywhere.

The universe is accelerating outwards in all directions. If the universe is infinite, infinite expansion would have already taken place and there would be no existence at all.

The Cosmic Microwave Background is the first piece of light detectable in the universe, with only darkness before it. In an infinite universe, this would not be possible.

So what existed before that?

There is no before.Why can you not understand that? The word before, relies on cause and effect, cause and effect relies on time. With no time, there is no cause and effect, with no cause and effect, there is no before.

Made from what?

I don't mean to shock you here. But I'm not one of the smartest people on the planet. So working on the Big Bang model is not my job. All I know, is that it is referred to as a singularity.

If nothing existed it couldn't have been made.

But it wasn't nothing. It was everything, everywhere and everywhen, squashed into a single point that is infinitely small.

And it would have taken TIME to form Space-time- so time had to exist before 13.7 billion years ago.

Wait, wait wait. It took time, to build time, but not the time that the universe exists on, which is still finite, but on an omniversal time? So, you are now putting forward the many worlds theory?

This is more far-fetched than anything in the bible.

People don't study science because it is easy, they do it because it is correct.

Wait- so you can believe these particles can come from nothing- but not that God formed the Earth and all of its inhabitants from nothing?

There is proof of former, none for the latter.

But what formed the black hole? Did it also form from nothing?

Most stellar black holes are formed from type 1A supernovae. I'd say this one was too, because it is hypothetical.

And again- you evolutionists say that the bible is far-fetched? Information which cannot be lost or destroyed- but apparently appeared from this great nothingness- by LUCK and is held on the 2-D surface of a black hole- When nothing that exists physically can be 2-D. Everything has 3 dimensions, no matter how thin.

See, now you're getting it. When trying to describe the universe, it's really. Freakin'. Hard

The surface of a black hole the event horizon is two dimensional. The actual physical form of the black hole, the singularity has no dimensions.

So I guess that means it's not quantifiable. Sounds more and more like faith.

Nope, it's called a hypothesis. If it is shown to be wrong, it's thrown away. That's what science does.

Before evolution on Earth. What has been theorized to have happened before Earth was formed is still evolution.

Again, what you're doing is profoundly misunderstanding words. Evolution only applies to biology, being a biological scientific theory. The formation of the earth is to do with physics.

No I wouldn't. But that's exactly what you're doing with belief in God.

Oh, you have photographic evidence of God? Where can we go to take our picture with him.

I can't do that. If we could measure or analyze statistics regarding God's existence, then we wouldn't need belief. And we also wouldn't have free will. There'd be no challenge to our existence.

Oh, so you were lying earlier when you said you had proof.

Exactly my point. But we do matter to God. And by extension, we should all matter to each other.

But God is perfect. God, by his description in the Torah, Bible and Qur'an. So he doen't care if anyone dies because he already has a perfect existence.

I already know what I can do. And that amount of help is multiplied in conjunction with God. Because God is infinite- so are we. We have spirits that exist beyond the physical realm. And through our spiritual existence, we're all connected.

Again, no proof, but I'll ask you these questions, please answer them in the Atheism thread:

What was you're spirit doing in 1243 BC?
Is your spirit everything you are now?
How do you prevent boredom from taking hold with a mind designed only for finite experiences?

It only gives a portion of the story, as I'd said.

It gives the entirety of the story it is trying to tell. Do you berate book of Ezekiel for not telling of how God made light?

And as you've pointed out above, theoretical science still suggests, that something had to come from nothing. Even the Bible doesn't ask us to believe that. It says that everything came from God.

No, instead you have to believe the words of book that is heavily plagiarised of other myths has little historical accuracy and that everything was made by magic in six days six thousand years ago by an overlord who is neither seen nor heard in modern times. Much better.

You keep bringing up religion, even though I repeatedly say I'm not religious. I believe in God. I think there are useful teaching tools in the bible and also from Buddhism, Taoism and yes (GASP) Islam, Hinduism, Judaism etc. etc.

I'm sorry, but why gasp? Judaism, Christianity and Islam all share the same God.

And based on reading some of the principles you've presented here, I'm even more baffled at how you can say that God is an improbability.

Intelligent life developed, but an intelligent being couldn't have always existed. Particles can come from nothing- a black hole can come from nothing, and information can come from nothing- but the existence of God is illogical? Seriously?

One has the benefit of evidence.

God doesn't look for you to forfeit your will- which is again why he gave us free will. God wants you to work with him, not for him. He doesn't need us. But we need him.

I've lived perfectly well without him, as do currently about 1 billion other people.

 

[Dragon]

On the subject of why God doesn't reveal himself, I'll say this:

First, if he did there'd be no free will. It's similar to walking into a bank when the full SWAT Team is standing with weapons aimed and trying to pull a stick-up. You know you have no chance, so you wouldn't even try.

Second, most atheists present God with a challenge out of arrogance. "Show me some tricks and I'll believe in you". God doesn't need anyone's belief. And if you were the all-powerful creator of the universe, would you humble yourself to some insignificant weasel demanding you placate them?

On the other hand, if you go before God with humility and an open heart and mind, he will reveal himself to you. Maybe not in the way you'd like, but he will. It's certainly been the case in my life.