Does anyone else ever get tired of a shared universe?

[Cain]

I feel that Marvel, for the most part, does the shared universe nicely. The Marvel Age was built on it, so it often feels more organic.

DC, imo, had a mediocre shared universe until this new 52 initiative. Heroes were made lesser due to them cramming everyone on the same planet.

See I feel that DC actually did do the shared universe thing very nicely before. Of course in the end when you do that for 50 plus years in some ways you'll have some redundancy like when you have Black Lighting and Static existing in the same universe once they tried that "Milestone in the JLA" **** or whatever. Or when they brought Captain Marvel into the mainstream DCU even though he Supes and Mon-El all pretty much are interchangeable in some aspects in terms of archetype. For the most part though that was their greatest strength for a while especially when it came to how they handled legacy character relationships within the shared universe.

 

[The Batman]

For me, I never liked it when they had the "Earth 2" heroes predate guys like Superman and Batman. It felt forced, and it was forced, and it seemed like they were ripping off MArvel. Not only that, but making Alan Scott and the JSA the guys who came first was one of the things that damaged post crisis Superman, imo.

I never really cared for the "legacy" aspect of DC. I dont feel its necessary to the company, to be honest, and I wouldnt be surprised if the whole "Legacy" thing was what had a lot of people apprehensive about reading DC in the first place. I look at how Flash is actually selling in the top ten now that they keep the focus solely on Barry being Flash instead of having three guys running around calling themselves the Flash. Now, that might not be the reason Flash is a top seller currently, but I cant help but notice the correlation.

Really, at the end of the day, I dont think DC was particularly built to have a shared universe, and sometimes it shows.

 

[Cain]

For me, I never liked it when they had the "Earth 2" heroes predate guys like Superman and Batman. It felt forced, and it was forced, and it seemed like they were ripping off MArvel. Not only that, but making Alan Scott and the JSA the guys who came first was one of the things that damaged post crisis Superman, imo.

I never really cared for the "legacy" aspect of DC. I dont feel its necessary to the company, to be honest, and I wouldnt be surprised if the whole "Legacy" thing was what had a lot of people apprehensive about reading DC in the first place. I look at how Flash is actually selling in the top ten now that they keep the focus solely on Barry being Flash instead of having three guys running around calling themselves the Flash. Now, that might not be the reason Flash is a top seller currently, but I cant help but notice the correlation.

Really, at the end of the day, I dont think DC was particularly built to have a shared universe, and sometimes it shows.

I agree with the bold very much. I'm of the belief that he just works better when he's the first of his kind. Like what's happening now and what happened in the golden age.

I didn't mind the legacy aspect. I started reading in '88 so before I got into the silver and golden ages through back issues, paperback collections and reprints it was a big appeal to me. That Jay Garrick could move on with life and have a successor and that successor could die and then his successor takes over etc. It felt real in the sense that the characters progressed. They didn't remain static archetypes.

Then you had how the actual characters interacted with each other. The way their fraternal bonds were displayed so honestly. There was a lot of great writing in the early post-crisis era. Though I personally do feel that the shared universe concept worked way better pre-crisis than post-crisis for the most part in the long run.

Sure National/DC Comics weren't built to be a shared universe but arguably neither was Timely comics until the 40's just like with National and their teamings of Superman and Batman. It was just a natural effect of capitalism "if 1 makes a lot of money and so does 2 then 3 must make even more money".

They made it work for many years for the most part. Though now I do wish it was more multiversal with the DCnU. Like Anubis said earlier when they eventually spin an Authority title off from Stormwatch it won't pack the same bite it did at Wildstorm. Mainly cause of the JL presence within the same universe.

They had an opportunity here and I think The Dark, Edge, New Justice etc. lines should've been their own self contained universes within the new multiverse but what's done is done. Still shared universes in the sense that the titles are all connected within their respective lines like how it was with Milestone and Wildstorm & DC co-existing with each other but still being independent sections of the multiverse.

 

[Tron Bonne]

What's so boggling about it? There's nothing wrong with the characters being independent from each other. That's the way a lot of them started out. Superman and Batman weren't written to be a part of shared universe when they were created.

Don't get me wrong, I like fantasy, I like sci fi, but there's such a thing as overdoing it. To me, what makes characters like Superman special is the contrast between the normal and the fantastic. The DCU's Earth isn't exactly normal, and I have trouble imagining it ever having been normal. There's always some super secret civilization of super-intelligent gorillas or super strong Amazons tucked away somewhere.

This is so weird....like the third thread that's had a 4-5 month delayed reaction.

Anyway, it's boggling to me because you're essentially wanting to take away something that makes superhero comics unique. You may have some shared universes in other mediums, but they tend to be pretty light or just for flash (like video game fighting crossovers). It's like Alan Moore said in an introduction to one his Swamp Thing trades: It's a place where Superman can exist with Swamp Thing and Etrigan and still feel completely natural if done the correct way (paraphrasing, obviously, but that's essentially what he's saying, which is your reasoning for why it doesn't work).

I guess it's also boggling to me why you can't just separate this **** yourself. Why can't Superman contrast between the normal and fantastical? Simply because he lives in this shared universe? Why does this shared universe always be self-referencing itself? Why can't we just say, "This is a Superman story that does that, where we won't have to worry about any of the other heroes for now." I mean, why? It's like people who ask, "Well, why doesn't Superman or the other metahumans just clean up Gotham for Batman in 5 seconds?" And the answer is the question, because why would you want that? And why do you feel it's needed to be addressed. Just like it lay. Basically, when a shared universe can be utilized, there's no reason it shouldn't be, but when it doesn't need to be, then why do you have to poke at it and go, "But....but....but.....but....WHY!?" It's like Grant Morrison says, "Why is it like that? Because superheroes aren't ****ing real!"

Now, I'm not saying there aren't ever any legit problems. I think some of the stuff that The Batman brought up (the whole JSA integration stuff especially) is perfectly valid. But speaking generally, I just don't see why you'd want to cut out one of the most interesting and fascinating aspects of superhero comics. I mean, honestly, I don't see how people who question that kind of stuff can even stand to read comics. You're dealing with the most unrealistic, fantastic concepts of the modern age, you just have to tune your reality to theirs, it seems to me, anyway.

 

[Anubis]

It's infuriating is what it is. I've been infuriated by a lot of boos**t opinions lately. I just wanna shake em!

 

[Tron Bonne]

And I know what the response will be. "But, Tron, it lessens the power of these things because in the back of your mind, you're thinking about how these things are still here and you can't do...blah blah blah." But my response is...just don't worry about it, bro.

 

[Cain]

And I know what the response will be. "But, Tron, it lessens the power of these things because in the back of your mind, you're thinking about how these things are still here and you can't do...blah blah blah." But my response is...just don't worry about it, bro.

Word; and that's pretty much the gist of it all. If you have some difficulty willing suspension of disbelief you probably shouldn't be reading fantasy fiction.

 

[The Batman]

I agree with the bold very much. I'm of the belief that he just works better when he's the first of his kind. Like what's happening now and what happened in the golden age.

I didn't mind the legacy aspect. I started reading in '88 so before I got into the silver and golden ages through back issues, paperback collections and reprints it was a big appeal to me. That Jay Garrick could move on with life and have a successor and that successor could die and then his successor takes over etc. It felt real in the sense that the characters progressed. They didn't remain static archetypes.

Then you had how the actual characters interacted with each other. The way their fraternal bonds were displayed so honestly. There was a lot of great writing in the early post-crisis era. Though I personally do feel that the shared universe concept worked way better pre-crisis than post-crisis for the most part in the long run.

Sure National/DC Comics weren't built to be a shared universe but arguably neither was Timely comics until the 40's just like with National and their teamings of Superman and Batman. It was just a natural effect of capitalism "if 1 makes a lot of money and so does 2 then 3 must make even more money".

They made it work for many years for the most part. Though now I do wish it was more multiversal with the DCnU. Like Anubis said earlier when they eventually spin an Authority title off from Stormwatch it won't pack the same bite it did at Wildstorm. Mainly cause of the JL presence within the same universe.

They had an opportunity here and I think The Dark, Edge, New Justice etc. lines should've been their own self contained universes within the new multiverse but what's done is done. Still shared universes in the sense that the titles are all connected within their respective lines like how it was with Milestone and Wildstorm & DC co-existing with each other but still being independent sections of the multiverse.

I do like the fraternal bonds that you were talking about, like Booster Gold and Blue Beetle, Tim and Connor, etc. Thats where the shared universe fit perfectly.

As for Timely, I agree...but when Stan created all those characters in the 69's, thats when the shared universe was perfected, IMO. It never feels forced or wrong when marvel heroes crossover due to the universe stan built.

I wouldnt even worry about using the mutiverse as a reason for why most books dont share a universe. I would just write the book as if its a self contained universe with no explanation.

 

[The Question]

This is so weird....like the third thread that's had a 4-5 month delayed reaction.

Anyway, it's boggling to me because you're essentially wanting to take away something that makes superhero comics unique. You may have some shared universes in other mediums, but they tend to be pretty light or just for flash (like video game fighting crossovers). It's like Alan Moore said in an introduction to one his Swamp Thing trades: It's a place where Superman can exist with Swamp Thing and Etrigan and still feel completely natural if done the correct way (paraphrasing, obviously, but that's essentially what he's saying, which is your reasoning for why it doesn't work).

I guess it's also boggling to me why you can't just separate this **** yourself. Why can't Superman contrast between the normal and fantastical? Simply because he lives in this shared universe? Why does this shared universe always be self-referencing itself? Why can't we just say, "This is a Superman story that does that, where we won't have to worry about any of the other heroes for now." I mean, why? It's like people who ask, "Well, why doesn't Superman or the other metahumans just clean up Gotham for Batman in 5 seconds?" And the answer is the question, because why would you want that? And why do you feel it's needed to be addressed. Just like it lay. Basically, when a shared universe can be utilized, there's no reason it shouldn't be, but when it doesn't need to be, then why do you have to poke at it and go, "But....but....but.....but....WHY!?" It's like Grant Morrison says, "Why is it like that? Because superheroes aren't ****ing real!"

Now, I'm not saying there aren't ever any legit problems. I think some of the stuff that The Batman brought up (the whole JSA integration stuff especially) is perfectly valid. But speaking generally, I just don't see why you'd want to cut out one of the most interesting and fascinating aspects of superhero comics. I mean, honestly, I don't see how people who question that kind of stuff can even stand to read comics. You're dealing with the most unrealistic, fantastic concepts of the modern age, you just have to tune your reality to theirs, it seems to me, anyway.

And also, even if you are concerned with logistical issues of "why doesn't the Justice League fix Gotham in five seconds," which I actually DO think is a legitimate thing to find off about a story, there are much better and much more interesting ways you can deal with that instead of simply cutting the characters off from each other. It's much better to try and find creative solutions to logical problems like that instead of easy ones.

For example, instead of saying "The Justice League would just fix Gotham everything is ruined forever," use the question of "how could Batman's membership in the League help Gotham city" and make a story out of it, or at least a subplot. Go into what actually causes crime and urban decay, delve into the issues or racism, economic inequality, police brutality, the criminal justice system, drug culture, gang culture. Look at the causes from a psychological and sociological perspective. Fact is, you can't save a city quickly and forcefully, at least not without enaging in very un-League like behavior, in part because you have to change the culture and the infrastructure, not just get rid of bad people. Put Batman and the rest of the League in a legitimate moral dilema in regards to how far they're willing to go to fix this one city. Give them a no-win scenario and force them to make a choice.

That would be an interesting way to address the problem.

Cutting Batman off from the DCU entirely would not.

 

[Hush]

An integrated universe is awesome. I love it.

 

[Spike_x1]

And also, even if you are concerned with logistical issues of "why doesn't the Justice League fix Gotham in five seconds," which I actually DO think is a legitimate thing to find off about a story, there are much better and much more interesting ways you can deal with that instead of simply cutting the characters off from each other. It's much better to try and find creative solutions to logical problems like that instead of easy ones.

For example, instead of saying "The Justice League would just fix Gotham everything is ruined forever," use the question of "how could Batman's membership in the League help Gotham city" and make a story out of it, or at least a subplot. Go into what actually causes crime and urban decay, delve into the issues or racism, economic inequality, police brutality, the criminal justice system, drug culture, gang culture. Look at the causes from a psychological and sociological perspective. Fact is, you can't save a city quickly and forcefully, at least not without enaging in very un-League like behavior, in part because you have to change the culture and the infrastructure, not just get rid of bad people. Put Batman and the rest of the League in a legitimate moral dilema in regards to how far they're willing to go to fix this one city. Give them a no-win scenario and force them to make a choice.

That would be an interesting way to address the problem.

Cutting Batman off from the DCU entirely would not.

This. This right here.

I love the shared universe and (getting away from Batman) unlike a lot of people here apparently, it didn't bother me in the slightest that Superman wasn't the first superhero in the DCU back when the JSA were around. He was still Superman and he still inspired various other heroes. So what if he didn't do the superhero thing before everyone else? The character and his stories were still just as interesting as before.

 

[Anubis]

That's the way I felt about it.

 

[The Question]

This. This right here.

I love the shared universe and (getting away from Batman) unlike a lot of people here apparently, it didn't bother me in the slightest that Superman wasn't the first superhero in the DCU back when the JSA were around. He was still Superman and he still inspired various other heroes. So what if he didn't do the superhero thing before everyone else? The character and his stories were still just as interesting as before.

Someone can be the best of something without being the first.

However, if you do want Superman to be the first official Superhero in the DCU, I thought Smallville of all things had a very nice comrpomise in having the JSA have been a secret conspiracy of superheroes that very few people new about. I actually think it's a really cool idea, it gives the JSA a really neat pulpy quality and makes them more distinct from the JLA.