Would DC be better if it WASN'T a Universe?

[crazy monkey]

Wow, you can reach from there? I gotta learn how to do that!

Seriously dude, come on. Did you read the rest of my post at all? I specifically acknowledged 13 posted replies, and of that group only one completely agreed with me, and another only kind of did. Everyone else had major issues with my ideas, and if they gave reason for their opinions, then I elaborated on them. I did expect honest answers, and I got them. I did not expect the majority of people to agree with me. I did expect to have to defend my viewpoint. I also expected to have a little fun, and not be guilt-tripped for it.

I did not refer to everyone as trolls. I think my more sardonic replies indicate which ones I considered to be such. Even so, I finished with a thank-you to everyone for posting.

Sorry if you were offended, dude, but my reply to you was intended to be silly and not serious at all. I certainly did not call you more or less stupid than anyone else. You didn't get what I was saying at first, you were arguing up the wrong tree, and I was just poking some fun at that. It's a common human mistake. Just laugh at yourself, my man, it makes life easier. This is just fanboy stuff on the internet, and I'm not out to hurt anyone. Sorry again if I did.

And yes, that was cool in Legion. There. We are in agreement.

--END!

 

[GoldenAgeHero]

Yep. Same things said about the airplane, automobile, telephone and television.

So...you must be right.

yeah lets give a airplane, automobile, and telephone thier own universe, that'll be awesome. dumba$$

 

[November Rain]

So that the artists and writers can make up their own landscape without having to worry about being too faithful to the real world? You know, to better provide a fantastic environment to their fantatic creations.

i think it has a lil more to do with continuity, there are far too many examples of a large scale crisis occuring in new york where other heroes aren't around to be seen, especially those you would expect on the front line.

the whole 'my city, my problem' feel is able to separate that problem out...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That's assuming that DC, like Marvel, wanted to put all of their superheroes in New York.

 

[November Rain]

well they certainly wanted to spread them out, giving the bigger ones their own pocket universe to work in.

I don't see any other reason for bats to be based in gotham and superman in metropolis.

marvel's gone the route of placing the majority of its big names in a single location...

 

[gildea]

As i stated earlier (and shall now elaborate) I think this idea works well for superman. Though the first of heroes and the standard by which all tend to be measured his power set has become somewhat generic and he himself has become less special (I think this is one of the reasons why DC has had such problems getting superman to work in the past few years). Put him into a less hero infested universe and he becomes super again.

Of course as someone pointed out I wouldn't want to see him not interacting with the trinity anymore, so I guess I dunno.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I haven't seen any problems DC's had with getting Superman to work. Greg Rucka, Joe Kelly, and others have all written great Superman stories in the past few years.

 

[crazy monkey]

yeah lets give a airplane, automobile, and telephone thier own universe, that'll be awesome. dumba$$

I'm pretty sure I meant that there is a precedent in history for good ideas being initially dismissed by the majority as "really, really, dumb," and "bankrupting," just because they went against the grain. I'm also pretty sure that what I meant was completely obvious if given ten consecutive seconds of thought. back atcha.

BTW -- does your mom know that you kind-of curse at your elders on the internet?

(I think this is one of the reasons why DC has had such problems getting superman to work in the past few years). Put him into a less hero infested universe and he becomes super again.

Of course as someone pointed out I wouldn't want to see him not interacting with the trinity anymore, so I guess I dunno.

Yeah, that's my problem with my own idea. I too feel that Superman has just been watered down lately, like no one knows what to do with him. But the thought of him never getting told-off by Batman again is troublesome. Still...

I guess Infinite Crisis was just the last straw for me. I think that's where all this stems from. I don't know why they did it. I didn't see the need for it to begin with. In my eyes, the DCU was just starting to shape up, and to heat up. Identity Crisis was terrific. It was a perfect utilization of a connected universe of characters with a long and rich history. It asked a very cool, fresh question: What if super-heroes keep secrets from us, the readers, as well? So what if we read their books, what if that's just a little window into their lives and there's jucier stuff going on between the issues?

I loved it. It was personal, character-driven, and yet still big and colorful. The people wore costumes, but the violence was real, with serious repercussions. And it kind of drew a battle line around Batman's feet, pitting him against his old allies once again; making him an outsider once again. So to me, it all seemed to be looking up.

Then I hear about its follow-up. The name alone had me like, . It just sounded so cheesy, so commercial, so forced, so much like an editor's project rather than a work of art. And in my opinion, it read that way as well: a busy, complicated, overwrought, neon-colored train-wreck of half-cocked ideas, "shocking revelations," and psuedo-science jibber-jabber.

I know that review will probably send some more flak my way. Whatever. I've read too many comics, kids. I see through the veil. That's why I'd rather have the universe separated in some way, preferably by genre. It'll prevent the "big events" from happening.

Writing so many comics in so many different styles by so many creators and insisting that they all take place in the same reality seems to me like ten different companies all cutting pieces of the same jigsaw puzzle. No one knows where their bit will begin or end, and so the pieces will inevitably not match-up. So here comes the editors with another planned "event" to clip the ends off and pound the pieces and make it all fit, come hell or high water.

At least, that's usually the reason, to 'fix' the continuity. This time, nothing needed fixing. I just can't justify why they would mess with the universe so. It pissed me off and started these visions dancing in my head:

Picture Batman in a gritty, shadowy world of street-crime, espianoge and bloodshed, where his very name is still only whispered in fear; of Superman in a gleaming, 1950's vision of the future come to life, where kids still look up and cheer him on; of Wonder Woman in a world where magic-users carry a license, gods sit on UN commitees and dragons fly beside commerical jets.

See where I'm coming from now?

Not that it'll ever happen anyway. Just something new to think about.

-- END!

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Picture Batman in a gritty, shadowy world of street-crime, espianoge and bloodshed, where his very name is still only whispered in fear; of Superman in a gleaming, 1950's vision of the future come to life, where kids still look up and cheer him on; of Wonder Woman in a world where magic-users carry a license, gods sit on UN commitees and dragons fly beside commerical jets.

There are already characters and stories that cover all of those. Pretty much every noirish story that centers on a vigilante contains the same themes and concepts of your Batman world, most of the stories where a single hero rises up and the public adores him has similar themes to your Superman world, and stuff like Arrowsmith features magic replacing science as the world's major power like your Wonder Woman world. I see where you're coming from with your ideas, but one of the main reasons I love the DC universe is because it provides a massive universe where all of those concepts can interact and clash in an infinite number of ways. I think separating the characters into their own genre worlds would be an unnecessary limitation on them.

 

[crazy monkey]

OK.

But what you consider limits, I call pruning. Clipping branches off a tree in the winter might seem unneccassary. After all, millions of trees grow everywhere all the time without our help. But actually, the potential beauty of a tree, not to mention increased longevity and health, can only be realized through skillful pruning.

That's what I see in the DCU -- potential that sits untapped because it just keeps growing more and more dense, like a plant in the wild. If someone would limit where it grows and clip off the dead ideas, I think its characters' would become stronger, more developed, easier to maintain. In a word: healthier.

-- END!

 

[BrianWilly]

Writing so many comics in so many different styles by so many creators and insisting that they all take place in the same reality seems to me like ten different companies all cutting pieces of the same jigsaw puzzle. No one knows where their bit will begin or end, and so the pieces will inevitably not match-up.

But that's life. That's the way things tend to happen in real life. Not everything is going to be noir and serious, and not everything is going to be inspiring and fantastic. Batman deals with magical supervillains, too, and Wonder Woman solves murder mysteries. That's simply far more realistic, for the lack of a more fitting term. Certainly it puts a lot less restrictions on the types of stories that you're allowed to tell with these characters.

I think it's odd that you try to pass off this persona as the "veteran" comic book reader preaching to the blind, ignorant n00bs, and yet the suggestion you're making is self-admittedly completely extreme, completely radical and goes against the majority of western comic book conventions that have been around since the 1950s. DC has always had Crises, infinite or otherwise, and Marvel has always had Wars, secret or otherwise. If those events hadn't happened, I think it's safe to assume that the two companies would be in a far different place than they are today, and not necessarily for the better. In fact, I'd venture to say that the crossover of characters has helped these two companies to survive the decline of the comic book market far, far better than if they had not existed in a shared universe. Sorry, but I just get a tickle everytime someone goes "I know I have a crazy idea, but hear me out!" and then is surprised when people think it's crazy.

A lot of people liked Infinite Crisis. A lot of people like 52. A lot of people like the DCU being shared and diverse. That's just all there is to it. It seems that you're merely being shocked and confounded over this when, frankly, readers have just as many reasons to enjoy the shared universe as you have to hate it. I don't think that you're ultimately arguing anything that's overall that beneficial to the company or to the stories that it tells, ultimately you're merely arguing something that is determined 100% by one's own personal tastes. Some people say that Superman is more boring now, and yet single every day on these boards I hear how well the books were doing under Greg Rucka and how exciting the books have become One Year Later. People have been whining on and off about how unrelatable Wonder Woman is for the last ten years or so, and yet those are the same people that have never picked up a single issue of her books. I myself don't read Batman, but again, I like the fact that Batman exists in the same universe as these other characters because he's a wonderful foil.

Besides, it sounds like your complaints with Infinite Crisis have less to do with shared universes at all and more to do simply with the plot and storytelling, period. You yourself claimed to like Identity Crisis, and that's a type of story that could never have been made without the DCU having been a shared universe for the latter half of the century. How is it that these characters felt clashing to you in Infinite Crisis, yet felt natural to you in Identity Crisis? I'd say the problem didn't lie at all in any sort of shared universe since the aspect of a shared universe is one of the most significant similarities between those two stories, but that the problem lay in the types of stories that they were.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

OK.

But what you consider limits, I call pruning. Clipping branches off a tree in the winter might seem unneccassary. After all, millions of trees grow everywhere all the time without our help. But actually, the potential beauty of a tree, not to mention increased longevity and health, can only be realized through skillful pruning.

That's what I see in the DCU -- potential that sits untapped because it just keeps growing more and more dense, like a plant in the wild. If someone would limit where it grows and clip off the dead ideas, I think its characters' would become stronger, more developed, easier to maintain. In a word: healthier.

-- END!

I don't agree. If an idea isn't worth pursuing, it's usually dropped. Plus, the great Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and other characters' stories are no less great for the fact that other superheroes exist in their world. Some of them, like Kingdom Come, are only great because of the mish-mash of heroes the DC universe represents. Splitting the trinity into separate worlds might produce some fun stories with worlds that are tailor-made to suit them, but eventually I'd get tired of Wonder Woman constantly dealing with magic and myth, Superman constantly dealing with traditional supervillains, Batman constantly dealing with street criminials and gangsters, etc. Variety is the spice of life, as they say.

Anyway, here's one of my main problems with your scenario: by your rules, Morrison's JLA run would've been entirely out of the question. Wonder Woman and Batman on a team that dealt with White Martians? Superman and Batman dealing with angels in the very next arc? Egad!

 

[BrianWilly]

Exactly. The very notion of teams like the JLA, the JSA, the Teen Titans, and countless others are based on the idea of the shared universe. And teams like that make up more than a bit of the DCU's life and character. Why sacrifice all that just because we don't wanna see Batman in space?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I actually don't mind seeing Batman in space to begin with.

 

[The Leaguer]

Batman can breathe in space.

 

[Ben Urich]

I just think splitting up superheroes that have working relationships is silly. How would team books get made? Events like Infinite Crisis couldn't even happen.
I'd probably just stop reading DC if they ever did that. But they wouldn't, because they generally have an IQ above 3.

 

[thedarks0ldier]

I dont think the color's clash, its just there isnt a ambient color that combines the piece together. I studied why unless jim lee or alex ross was making the art, everything in DC use to clash visually. Marvel seemed to have the whole ambient color thing going for them.

(its a hint of the sun or moon or lights in the background that applies to everything.)

So far, all the OYL titles i have read have their colors not clashing, especially the Wonder Woman and Superman Titles.

 

[crazy monkey]

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

When did I preach, brother? I posed a question, provided my own opinion on said topic, fielded a lot of responses, and have done my best to explain the reasons for my views. Is there some other use for such a forum that I'm unfamiliar with? Is it any different than what you do here?

And you obviously don't read my posts in detail, or have a very bad short-term memory. I distinctly said that I expected people to disagree. When did I express any shock when someone did?

Do you have some sort of problem with views that are 'completely extreme, completely radical and go against the majority of western comic book conventions?' If so, why? What's wrong with me, a long-term consumer, desiring a fresh, new product to get excited about? What's strange about a 'veteran' of any field of study or interest becoming jaded and dissatisfied with concepts and methods that are, to him, old hat? And I never said that I hate the DCU. If I did, why in the hell would I volutarily spend my free time discussing it?

You're right, cross-overs are nothing new. I never said they were. That's just my point. I'd like to see something different; i.e., in contrast to the norm. The prior successes of Marvel and DC are undoubtably linked to their shared universes, as I (again) have already acknowledged. As regards the decline of the market, cross-over events themselves were one of the catalysts of that very decline. Fans were fed-up with shelling out bucks for books they didn't want to read just to keep pace with changes in books that they cared about, which is why the Big Two stayed away from them until recent years. Comics now cost double what they did, on average, ten years ago. If these big cross-overs continue to grind out year after year, such a backlash could conceivably reoccur.

But that's another topic.

I don't think that you're ultimately arguing anything that's overall that beneficial to the company or to the stories that it tells, ultimately you're merely arguing something that is determined 100% by one's own personal tastes.

We are talking about an aspect of the entertainment industry, are we not? As someone who makes a decision to but comic books or not, my personal tastes are what 'the company' is primarily concerned with, unless DC is some sort of conglamarate that just publishes comics for kicks. When the fans don't like what's being published, the company starts to struggle. Or are you suggesting that the voice of an individual simply doesn't matter or shouldn't be considered?

Some people say that Superman is more boring now, and yet single every day on these boards I hear how well the books were doing under Greg Rucka and how exciting the books have become One Year Later. People have been whining on and off about how unrelatable Wonder Woman is for the last ten years or so, and yet those are the same people that have never picked up a single issue of her books.

Yes, isn't it amazing that people develop their own opinions and go on the internet to freely express them? Isn't that just, like, too weird, that some people think differently from others? Oh, and I totally agree; people that don't like a comic that I read probably have never read it and are just lying when they say they have. Do you get the point of this site?

Of course you do, I'm just hissing and spitting a little, and now I'm done. Get the big spoon from grandma's, BrianWilly, cause it's time to feed me Humble Pie. Yes, you caught me in my contradictional conundrum. I did like Identity Crisis and openly admit that it relied on the DCU as we know it. Dude, again, if I didn't enjoy comics, why would I have bothered reading them all this time? I'm just in the mood for something different. You tellin' me that's never happened to you?

It's just an opinion, man, a thought, a musing, a concept. I was curious what my fellow fans would think of it. They let me know. I thanked them and continued the discussion. Sorry if I came off 'preachy.' But I definitely did not say anything that bespoke, "shocked and confounded." In fact, if you look back through my replies, I tried my best to accept everyone's veiwpoints (those that were intelligently expressed) and find something in them to agree with, yours included. Sure, I may have provided a counter-point. That's my right the same as your's, isn't it?

And please, for the love of God, don't ever tell me I give you a tickle again. If I do, I -- I don't wanna know.

-- END!

 

[crazy monkey]

Batman can breathe in space.

...With prep time!

-- END!

 

[The Leaguer]

No. He can always breathe in space.

 

[crazy monkey]

Batman deals with magical supervillains, too, and Wonder Woman solves murder mysteries.

Splitting the trinity into separate worlds might produce some fun stories with worlds that are tailor-made to suit them, but eventually I'd get tired of Wonder Woman constantly dealing with magic and myth, Superman constantly dealing with traditional supervillains, Batman constantly dealing with street criminials and gangsters, etc. Variety is the spice of life, as they say.

See, I get what you guys are saying there. It's just that, while I've accepted all that for years because they were part of good stories, I've never liked Batman mixed with magic. Science that borders on the miraculous is fine, as long as it's rational. But for me, it really grates. And when I see Diana meddling with stuff the cops can handle I think, Shouldn't you have something grander to do? You're a friggin' goddess! Sorry, but that's just my gut reaction.

Besides, most fans dug Batman:TAS. I can think of only two episodes that dabbled in magic, namely Avatar and The Demon Within. Never heard anyone bring them up as their faves. (I, of course, hated them.) The whole damn series was Bats, the Rogues, and the mafia...and one ninja, and some robots, for good measure.

The same goes for the Superman series. Most of it was just Supes scrappin' with the big boys, big super-powered brawls, with the occasional personal struggle. Even the mafia in that show eventually got all sci-fi teched out by Darksied. Boring? I didn't think so.

Not once have I ever heard a fan say, boy, TAS needed some more magic and aliens! Or, that Superman show would've been perfect with more murder mysteries!

Again, not saying you're wrong, just hitting the ball back to you. Sure, team-ups and genre-mixing can be cool, but sometimes when you take just the main character and let it stand out, let it grow on its own, you get such a stronger picture, and it certainly isn't boring if it's done right.

-- END!

 

[crazy monkey]

No. He can always breathe in space.

I stand corrected.

-- END!

 

[gildea]

I haven't seen any problems DC's had with getting Superman to work. Greg Rucka, Joe Kelly, and others have all written great Superman stories in the past few years.

I wasn't impressed. But its all opinion.

Really enjoying up up and away mind you.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm kind of enjoying it. Lex is not up to his usual standard, though.

 

[roach]

There is a wonderful story idea called "fish out of water". You take a character and put him in a situation or environment that he has never been in.
Sort of like Buck Rogers. The point I make with this is if there were 60 years of just noir type Batman stories would people eat it up??? How boring would it be that Batman is fighting yet another crimeboss???? Yes we know Batman can handle several dozen thugs in Gotham...but can he handle several dozen Aliens or Predators????? There needs to be a balance in the stories.