Does anyone else think heroes could of been a great show if...!

TheVelvetOnion

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Ive watched heroes from episode one to whatever were at now... and i read news that states the show is ending because it isnt doing so well... so far two shows that are brilliant are ending for no real valid reason... the other ugly betty... but thats a whole other issue.

Heroes - to me could of been a great show - Series One started and ended very well it set the tone for future... but then. what happend? now dont get me wrong there were highlights of all series that i liked, they had excellent cast members some wasted in roles that didnt suit them "cough knepper cough" i mean come on he would of been brilliant in any other character role in that show but they wasted him as a circus guy?

I think the problem with Heroes is that they were making up each season as it got renewed if they had done like what lost has, a long term story that will eventually play out. Each series would of been alot better. But it wasnt.
 
Heroes originally did have a five year plan, but it involved removing many of the favorite characters from season 1. Execs didn't like that, ordered rewrites and so the writing team was forced to make it up as they went along, and then the writer's strike hit and finished off the narrative integrity of the show for good.

It would have been MUCH better as a show if Kring had been allowed to go forward with his original vision.
 
I stopped reading after you said Ugly Betty was brilliant.
 
..they didnt put it on the same time as House
 
Doesn't matter where they put it, they ruined the series the moment volume 1 ended and 2 began
 
the problem was they didn't do what they had originally planned.
Originally they said they would kill of many heroes and end the other stories, and bring in newer heroes (replace most of the season 1 cast in season 2). So they could have ended Noah and Clair's story, as well as Syler's, and Nathan's and mostly everyone's.
Bring in even more new characters.
They said they wanted to make it a rotating cast and keep their world small and dangerous.
Instead they kept everyone from season 1 and added a few characters. The stories got bigger and bigger and they kept adding more characters and stuff.
In my opinion if they had done what they originally intended and replaced most of the cast and made it a rotating cast like Law and Order was, even though many people would be sad that their favorite hero was gone, it would have ended up being a much better show.
 
the problem was they didn't do what they had originally planned.
Originally they said they would kill of many heroes and end the other stories, and bring in newer heroes (replace most of the season 1 cast in season 2). So they could have ended Noah and Clair's story, as well as Syler's, and Nathan's and mostly everyone's.
Bring in even more new characters.
They said they wanted to make it a rotating cast and keep their world small and dangerous.
Instead they kept everyone from season 1 and added a few characters. The stories got bigger and bigger and they kept adding more characters and stuff.
In my opinion if they had done what they originally intended and replaced most of the cast and made it a rotating cast like Law and Order was, even though many people would be sad that their favorite hero was gone, it would have ended up being a much better show.

You're warm, but a few notes:

1) Claire's actress was on a 5 year contract. Her story was going to continue after Noah's ended. She was going to grow up in season 2 instead of just starting to grow in season 4.
2) Nathan and Matt were obviously supposed to die and stay dead S1.
3) Sylar was obviously supposed to survive, and it doesnt' take a brain surgeon to see how Peter's Season 2 storyline of an amnesiatic man with a dark side, manipulated by Adam fits him perfectly. Sylar would have been a DIFFERENT character.
4) With Nathan and Matt gone, the 12 storyline (Remember it was called GENERATIONS) would have been followed by at least one new character. My money would have been on a Peter/Monica storyline.
5) Nikki/Mohinder would have been the new Company members, as well as the custodians of Micah/Molly. Without a significant personal storyline, they all would have been supporting/recurring cast, ala Ted Sprague or The Haitian.
6) Founders of the Company would have been introduced as main characters, instead of just being meaningless fodder.
7) Monica could have had her vigilante storyline and been the first actual superhero on the show.
8) Maya and Alejandro... well... every show makes it's mistakes. :)
 
I think the show wouldve been successful if it was more episodic in nature instead of focusing so much on the main storyline and I really think they shouldve never introduced time travel at least until near the end of the series.
 
Really? Time Travel was the thing that made the first season awesome! I mean, honestly, there would have been no story in season 1 without time travel.
 
Personally I think Heroes just got too big.

It was an amazing show when it had this kind of simple premise.

Save the Cheerleader save the world. You knew this was the point of the series. And it dealt with some amazing characters, who were all pulling together to understand what was going on and try and save the world, while at the same time this organisation was hunting them down... and one of them was the cheerleaders dad.

Even series 2, to some extent, felt the same tone.

But it started to care less about characterisation and more about twists and shocks. It played around so much with characters motives and agendas that you couldn't tell who was good and who was bad, or why they were doing anything. The plots got more and more ridiculous as they tried to do more and more daring things, but they really shouldn't have bothered.

They had this winning mix in season 1. A simple naive guy at the centre, a confused teen, a conflicted politician, an enthusiastic japanese man and his sidekick, a cop, a prostitute and a scientist. And all these people had this unique way of dealing with their powers and using their powers, how far they would go, and how they worked with each other.

And it had a better pace through it. I mean I literally couldn't stop watching. My friend an I had started watching it together on DVD, and as soon as he went home he called me and said 'you'd better not be watching it without me' and I was. It was addictive. You really really wanted to know how all these elements were going to play out.

I swear, the last series I barely even remember. I remember Sylar having Nathan's face, and a circus with an evil guy running it. I remember Matt having Sylar in his head, and some kind of surreal thing with Sylar and Peter trying to knock down a wall... was that the finale?

Seriously WHAT HAPPENED in that season? What was the maor plot point? What was the big battle at the end? Was there some world saving? What happened to Hiro... wasn't he dying...

It's truly the one show i've ever seen that actually withered a died instead of at least going out with a tiny bang... I mean the last new character they brought in had the power of making colours with music... WTF was that?

Rant over.
 
Heroes getting too big is a good point. Without that factor, the executive meddling and grandiose expectations could have been avoided.

As has been said before, the show stopped being great before the strike was even heard of.
 
I would've liked to see how storylines would've played out had it been a rotating cst, maybe only keeping on some characters for no more than 3 seasons at best
 
You're warm, but a few notes:


3) Sylar was obviously supposed to survive

Strongly disagree with this point. Sylar's story was done in Season 1. Dragging him along in the other seasons was one of the big problems of Heroes. He was a great villain, but he didn't have anywhere else to go after season one. And that's evident in how erratic his story lines after that were. They couldn't figure out what else to do with him, so they just started throwing twists in there.

"Hey, he's Peter's brother! Wait! No he's not! Now he's good! Now he's not! Now he's good again!"

I love Sylar, and I loved Quinto, but Sylar should have stayed dead after season 1.
 
Strongly disagree with this point. Sylar's story was done in Season 1. Dragging him along in the other seasons was one of the big problems of Heroes. He was a great villain, but he didn't have anywhere else to go after season one. And that's evident in how erratic his story lines after that were. They couldn't figure out what else to do with him, so they just started throwing twists in there.

"Hey, he's Peter's brother! Wait! No he's not! Now he's good! Now he's not! Now he's good again!"

I love Sylar, and I loved Quinto, but Sylar should have stayed dead after season 1.
Indeed, it seemed he was brought back just because of the fan reaction to the character. He became so popular that they scrapped their original plans and just invented different ways to leave him in.
 
Strongly disagree with this point. Sylar's story was done in Season 1. Dragging him along in the other seasons was one of the big problems of Heroes. He was a great villain, but he didn't have anywhere else to go after season one. And that's evident in how erratic his story lines after that were. They couldn't figure out what else to do with him, so they just started throwing twists in there.

"Hey, he's Peter's brother! Wait! No he's not! Now he's good! Now he's not! Now he's good again!"

I love Sylar, and I loved Quinto, but Sylar should have stayed dead after season 1.

Let me clarify. Gabriel Gray was supposed to survive, and, to me, Peter's second season storyline screams for an amnesiatic Gabriel coping with an unknown dark side, as opposed to Peter coping with an unheard of Dark side. A final redemption then for the character, who showed untapped remorse, would have been nice, and it just would have been a better story with him being led around by the nose by Adam, imho, rather than Peter acting exceptionally out of character all season long.

After that, I peronally would have continued to develop him, but you're right the 'Sylar' story was done, and bringing him back as the same overpowered serial killer was a big factor in the show sucking.
 
I think Sylar should have been done after the first season.

Nothing they did with Sylar's character after season 1 was interesting. He was absolutely amazing as a heartless serial killer with a thirst for powers, and absolutely sickening as a man searching for his purpose.

But in the same veil, nothing they did with Peter's character after season 1 was interesting.

He made an absolutely brilliant naive optimistic hero who had absolute faith in his destiny and the people around him. He made a terrible confused guy with a trouble past contemplating his darker sides and getting manipulated and tricked by everyone.

You know, now I think about it, most of the characters fit this trend.
 
Let me clarify. Gabriel Gray was supposed to survive, and, to me, Peter's second season storyline screams for an amnesiatic Gabriel coping with an unknown dark side, as opposed to Peter coping with an unheard of Dark side. A final redemption then for the character, who showed untapped remorse, would have been nice, and it just would have been a better story with him being led around by the nose by Adam, imho, rather than Peter acting exceptionally out of character all season long.

After that, I peronally would have continued to develop him, but you're right the 'Sylar' story was done, and bringing him back as the same overpowered serial killer was a big factor in the show sucking.

Honestly, I don't think so. I think both Peter and Gabriel were supposed to be done after season 1. An amnesiatic Gabriel with a dark side isn't interesting to me. And if they wanted to do that, why wait until season 4 to do it? I wasn't really interested in seeing a redeemed Sylar. He was much more interesting as a power hungry killer that came about because of extreme emotional sheltering.

I will give Heroes props for finally finding an interesting way for Sylar to become good in Season 4. (It was better then what they did in 3 anyways). But I think it's fairly clear that Sylar was supposed to be done after season 1. The character had no where left to go. If they had a plan for his character post season 1, I really doubt his story lines would have been so incredibly muddled as they were. They had no clear vision.

And I think a Sylar who chooses to be evil as opposed to being driven by a "hunger" was a much, MUCH more interesting character. Not to mention it makes more sense. Sure, Sylar is driven by an internal hunger...but that only explains why he kills supers, not why he wanted to blow up New York.

Sylar was a great villain, but bringing him back was one of their big problems.
 
Honestly, I don't think so. I think both Peter and Gabriel were supposed to be done after season 1. An amnesiatic Gabriel with a dark side isn't interesting to me. And if they wanted to do that, why wait until season 4 to do it? I wasn't really interested in seeing a redeemed Sylar. He was much more interesting as a power hungry killer that came about because of extreme emotional sheltering.

I will give Heroes props for finally finding an interesting way for Sylar to become good in Season 4. (It was better then what they did in 3 anyways). But I think it's fairly clear that Sylar was supposed to be done after season 1. The character had no where left to go. If they had a plan for his character post season 1, I really doubt his story lines would have been so incredibly muddled as they were. They had no clear vision.

And I think a Sylar who chooses to be evil as opposed to being driven by a "hunger" was a much, MUCH more interesting character. Not to mention it makes more sense. Sure, Sylar is driven by an internal hunger...but that only explains why he kills supers, not why he wanted to blow up New York.

Sylar was a great villain, but bringing him back was one of their big problems.

Let me clarify: I don't like season 2-4. There are scant few things I enjoyed, and I feel they utterly destroyed the mythos by retconning things that made the series great and turning into the Sylar Show. I'm not a Sylar fan, but I find the Gabriel Grey character interesting and useful.

To answer your question: why they waited until Season 4 to do it? That's when Kring got some control back. When they originally wanted to do it, season 2, they were compelled by executives who thought the knew better to keep Nathan and Matt on and front and center, and that Sylar had to stay Sylar. That meant giving them the Generations storyline that was a natural fit for Peter (former show center) and a new character (new show center... Monica?). This meant that Peter had to go somewhere, so they gave him Gabriel's amnesiatic kaitlin-loving unknown dark side, Adam-lackey storyline, and they tacked on a brand new Sylar storyline to Maya and Alejandro. No matter how uninteresting you find amensiatic Sylar with a dark side, amensiatic Peter with a darkside is even less interesting, especially before 3 years of Sylar being shoved down our throats.

My point: keeping Matt and Nathan and Sylar evil caused the problems. Keeping Peter and Gabriel was set up in season 1.

On Peter

If you remember back then, Peter was pretty impotent, and he was an empath, not an overpowered power copier. To use powers he had to reflect on those individuals, to remember how he felt about them, how they felt. And he wasn't good at it yet, not at all. In a traditional 3-act superhero movie, they call this the Origin part. He hadn't faced any great challenge, and certainly had attained any victory over the master villain (his father, in his case, possibly Uluru), he was just learning what his power was, and experiencing the tragedy (being responsible for the death of his brother) that would galvanize him into action. With a guilt for his brother's death and a vendetta against his mother, Peter was well poised to be in a bar drinking himself into a stupor, if possible, arguing with Angela and investigating the Generations storyline. In short, he was poised to grow as a character, based on Season 1. I'm not sure why you thought that the character who had just killed his brother was supposed to be done. That was not clear to me at all.

On Gabriel

This character had less potential, but remember, before the extreme meddling and overhaul of Kring's vision, Sylar saw all his kills flash before his mind. Something happened to him when he got stabbed that involved his mind and his stolen powers. Did he lose them? Forget them? In one way or another, Hiro killed "Sylar." But, as we saw, his body was taken, was it alive? Was it for experimentation? Did he drag himself? Did someone else? You say Sylar should have stayed dead... but no one said he was dead in the first place.

Before S2 was torn asunder into suckitude, something of Sylar was supposed to survive. Since, as was clear, the Sylar storyline was done, my bet is it was Gabriel Gray. One thing I would have loved to play with is: "If we remove Sylar from Gabriel, will he turn into Sylar again, or is Sylar the product of a specific set of circumstances (ie PaPa Suresh)."

I think Sylar should have been done after the first season.

Nothing they did with Sylar's character after season 1 was interesting. He was absolutely amazing as a heartless serial killer with a thirst for powers, and absolutely sickening as a man searching for his purpose.

But in the same veil, nothing they did with Peter's character after season 1 was interesting.

He made an absolutely brilliant naive optimistic hero who had absolute faith in his destiny and the people around him. He made a terrible confused guy with a trouble past contemplating his darker sides and getting manipulated and tricked by everyone.

You know, now I think about it, most of the characters fit this trend.

That's because they didn't give those characters their original storylines from the five year plan, not because they were done with the characters.

Was Gabriel Gray, with Suresh on in his watch shop or at his mother's house *sickening* as a man searching for his purpose. That's where the potential in the Sylar character was, and I believe the original plan was to tap that before someone decided that Sylar had to stay Sylar.
 
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I honestly think that the show failed because it tried to hard to compare itself to LOST. If had just shown up & was its own show. Then I don't think people would have had such high expectations.
 
Ive watched heroes from episode one to whatever were at now... and i read news that states the show is ending because it isnt doing so well... so far two shows that are brilliant are ending for no real valid reason... the other ugly betty... but thats a whole other issue.

Heroes - to me could of been a great show - Series One started and ended very well it set the tone for future... but then. what happend? now dont get me wrong there were highlights of all series that i liked, they had excellent cast members some wasted in roles that didnt suit them "cough knepper cough" i mean come on he would of been brilliant in any other character role in that show but they wasted him as a circus guy?

I think the problem with Heroes is that they were making up each season as it got renewed if they had done like what lost has, a long term story that will eventually play out. Each series would of been alot better. But it wasnt.

Does anyone else think Heroes could HAVE been a great show if...it didn't suck. And it sucked as soon as the second season premiere came on air.

Heroes, by the way the series was shown, would've been much better if it was only done in mini-series like form. Mostly what season one had to offer and the better episodes during the rest of the series' run(if any; I can't say wether it had any or not as I stopped watching mid-season of season two, "Generations" or whatever it was called :whatever:).

I stopped reading after you said Ugly Betty was brilliant.

:hehe:
 
Let me clarify: I don't like season 2-4. There are scant few things I enjoyed, and I feel they utterly destroyed the mythos by retconning things that made the series great and turning into the Sylar Show. I'm not a Sylar fan, but I find the Gabriel Grey character interesting and useful.

To answer your question: why they waited until Season 4 to do it? That's when Kring got some control back. When they originally wanted to do it, season 2, they were compelled by executives who thought the knew better to keep Nathan and Matt on and front and center, and that Sylar had to stay Sylar. That meant giving them the Generations storyline that was a natural fit for Peter (former show center) and a new character (new show center... Monica?). This meant that Peter had to go somewhere, so they gave him Gabriel's amnesiatic kaitlin-loving unknown dark side, Adam-lackey storyline, and they tacked on a brand new Sylar storyline to Maya and Alejandro. No matter how uninteresting you find amensiatic Sylar with a dark side, amensiatic Peter with a darkside is even less interesting, especially before 3 years of Sylar being shoved down our throats.


On Gabriel

This character had less potential, but remember, before the extreme meddling and overhaul of Kring's vision, Sylar saw all his kills flash before his mind. Something happened to him when he got stabbed that involved his mind and his stolen powers. Did he lose them? Forget them? In one way or another, Hiro killed "Sylar." But, as we saw, his body was taken, was it alive? Was it for experimentation? Did he drag himself? Did someone else? You say Sylar should have stayed dead... but no one said he was dead in the first place.

Before S2 was torn asunder into suckitude, something of Sylar was supposed to survive. Since, as was clear, the Sylar storyline was done, my bet is it was Gabriel Gray. One thing I would have loved to play with is: "If we remove Sylar from Gabriel, will he turn into Sylar again, or is Sylar the product of a specific set of circumstances (ie PaPa Suresh)."



That's because they didn't give those characters their original storylines from the five year plan, not because they were done with the characters.

Was Gabriel Gray, with Suresh on in his watch shop or at his mother's house *sickening* as a man searching for his purpose. That's where the potential in the Sylar character was, and I believe the original plan was to tap that before someone decided that Sylar had to stay Sylar.

I still really don't see any indication that Sylar had to stay. Also I'm not sure what you're talking about when you said Sylar saw all his kills flash before him. In the finale of season 1 he just fell to the ground. Unless you meant that Kring had wanted to show this happen in season 1. As to that, I haven't read it anywhere. Did he say that in an interview?

However, my main problem with continuing Syalr/Gabriel is this: As part of his redemption, they tried to explain away his murderous tendencies by saying that the urge to kill was part of his "power." That was an incredibly bad idea. Not to mention, it doesn't explain why he wanted to friggin blow up New York. Sylar was a much more interesting villain when he killed simply because he wanted to. All the added information, with HGR setting it up for Sylar to turn evil and feeding his "hunger" all of that was just crap. It lessened his dynamic as a villain, and honestly was a cheap cop out to make him good.

Sylar was a much more compelling and complex villain in one, but he was a man beyond redemption. We see that he has some sympathetic tendencies to him in Season 1, but after the murder of his mother, we see that he's beyond any of that. He's a sociopath and psychopath who's out for himself only.

And since a main factor of Sylar's redemption revolved around the idea of his "hunger" changing him (again, something that still doesn't fit the character) I think it was a foolish idea if that's what Kring wanted to do to begin with. However, unless Kring comes out and says it, I highly doubt Sylar or Gabriel were supposed to survive season 1.
 
I still really don't see any indication that Sylar had to stay. Also I'm not sure what you're talking about when you said Sylar saw all his kills flash before him. In the finale of season 1 he just fell to the ground. Unless you meant that Kring had wanted to show this happen in season 1. As to that, I haven't read it anywhere. Did he say that in an interview?

However, my main problem with continuing Syalr/Gabriel is this: As part of his redemption, they tried to explain away his murderous tendencies by saying that the urge to kill was part of his "power." That was an incredibly bad idea. Not to mention, it doesn't explain why he wanted to friggin blow up New York. Sylar was a much more interesting villain when he killed simply because he wanted to. All the added information, with HGR setting it up for Sylar to turn evil and feeding his "hunger" all of that was just crap. It lessened his dynamic as a villain, and honestly was a cheap cop out to make him good.

Sylar was a much more compelling and complex villain in one, but he was a man beyond redemption. We see that he has some sympathetic tendencies to him in Season 1, but after the murder of his mother, we see that he's beyond any of that. He's a sociopath and psychopath who's out for himself only.

And since a main factor of Sylar's redemption revolved around the idea of his "hunger" changing him (again, something that still doesn't fit the character) I think it was a foolish idea if that's what Kring wanted to do to begin with. However, unless Kring comes out and says it, I highly doubt Sylar or Gabriel were supposed to survive season 1.

The thing that happens to his mind is in the original broadcast and DVD of the season finale of season 1.

Check here, 8:41-8:49
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTdgqLN0SRI

I agree that explaining away his urges was complete bollox. I believe the original plan was for him to stay around, ignorant of his past, but battling with those tendencies while Adam tried to bring them out/back. If they had followed their original plan for keeping him, he would have remained a compelling/complex villain. If redeemed, those things wouldn't disappear, he'd either become a different person, or find alternate ways to satisfy them.

Unless Kring comes out and says it, I highly doubt the character was supposed to be dead after season 1. The trail of blood existed only to create mystery for a character who otherwise would have obviously been dead.
 
The first season was great, the rest was not. They should have formed a closer group between the core cast as opposed to all having their individual storylines which all sucked. Also, none of them were heroes. It should have been called powers or something. The storylines became boring and predictable as did the characters.
 

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