Does Batman cause the Joker?

[Herofan]

In the arc "Going Sane," when the Joker believes he kills Batman and the hero is out of action, he abandons his evil, chaotic personality, changes his appearance, doesn't even remember his past personality aside from maybe glimpses, acts like a normal and fine man. Then he remembers more & more and feels compelled to become the Joker again and does after Batman returns.

I guess Batman just didn't and still hasn't realized that the Joker was out of action at the same time that he was and returned soon after he did but as a reader with more knowledge than the character, if there is such a connection to them how does that bad effect of there being a Batman weigh against the good Batman has done?

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

The idea of Batman and the Joker being locked in a cycle of cause and effect has been around for a while. It's almost a 'chicken and the egg' type thing. Tim Burton's Batman touched on it,

Batman: I'm going to kill you!

The Joker: You IDIOT! You made me. Remember? You dropped me into that vat of chemicals. That wasn't easy to get over, and don't think that I didn't try.

Batman: I know you did. [punches him again]


Batman: You killed my parents.

The Joker: What? What? What are you talking about?

Batman: I made you, you made me first.

The Joker: Hey, bat-brain, I mean, I was a kid when I killed your parents. I mean, I say "I made you" you gotta say "you made me." I mean, how childish can you get?


More than that, it's long been suggested that Batman's very presence is actually what attracts all the 'wacko' and 'sicko' criminal elements to Gotham City.

 

[Herofan]

Yeah it's at least a plausible interpretation that Batman is valuable against regular crime but may make things worse by attracting a lot of super-crime. But I think the character has rarely realized or considered that and most fans haven't either. "Going Sane" was interesting in presenting the effects of there not being and again being a Batman so directly and strongly.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Yeah it's at least a plausible interpretation that Batman is valuable against regular crime but may make things worse by attracting a lot of super-crime. But I think the character has rarely realized or considered that and most fans haven't either. "Going Sane" was interesting in presenting the effects of there not being and again being a Batman so directly and strongly.

I don't think I've read Going Sane so I'll try to rectify that

I mean Napier/Joker killing Bruce Wayne's parents was Burton's own spin, but the general 'eternalness' of Batman and the Joker is of course central to Alan Moore's The Killing Joke (easily makes my top two graphic novels) and was referenced in The Dark Knight with Joker's 'I think you and I are destined to do this forever' line.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

Going Sane was an implausible Batman story and doesn't really make any sense. Yes, Batman created him at the Axis/Ace Chemical factory or whatever, but I've never liked the portrayals that The Joker is so obsessed with him that if Batman died, The Joker personality would cease.

I think, realistically, if Batman died, Joker would probably go into a severe depression or maybe even kill himself. The Joker does need Batman (not really the other way around) so much that if Batman actually did die, Joker would probably go, not sane, but even deeper into psychosis, if that's possible. He'd prob. kill Harley and take out a bunch of innocents before offing himself.

 

[The Joker]

Most various Batman lore strongly suggests the Joker exists because of Batman. Whether its because he caused him to fall into the vat of chemicals as Red Hood/gangster in the comics, BTAS, and B'89, or that his presence inspired the Joker like in TDK. Even the Arkham video games imply it when Hugo Strange says "Look at the Joker, would he even exist if not for you".

Then there's the whole theme that Joker keeps going because of Batman. DKR showed that when Batman retired for 10 years Joker slipped into a comatose kind of state in Arkham. Like he just had no purpose any more and didn't care to do anything, or talk to anyone. When Batman comes back into action, so does the Joker. BTAS showed Joker mourn for Batman when he thought he was dead in 'The Man who killed Batman' episode. Joker even says "Without Batman crime has no punchline" and just drops the crime he is in the middle of pulling off and makes Harley return all the loot. Ledger's Joker wanted to protect Batman's identity from being spilled by Reese on T.V. because he envisioned life without Batman would be "So BORING!".

There's a long running history in the Batman lore that Joker is around because of Batman. Without him he would cease to be what he is. Something 'Going Sane' really explored. Its a really interesting dynamic, and helps separate Joker from the other villains whom mostly just want to kill Batman because he's an obstacle to their crimes.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Joker is not sure what his past is, he likes it multiple choice, and I think that's what I have to go with too.

I liked the idea of Oberon Sexton.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

Most various Batman lore strongly suggests the Joker exists because of Batman. Whether its because he caused him to fall into the vat of chemicals as Red Hood/gangster in the comics, BTAS, and B'89, or that his presence inspired the Joker like in TDK. Even the Arkham video games imply it when Hugo Strange says "Look at the Joker, would he even exist if not for you".

Then there's the whole theme that Joker keeps going because of Batman. DKR showed that when Batman retired for 10 years Joker slipped into a comatose kind of state in Arkham. Like he just had no purpose any more and didn't care to do anything, or talk to anyone. When Batman comes back into action, so does the Joker. BTAS showed Joker mourn for Batman when he thought he was dead in 'The Man who killed Batman' episode. Joker even says "Without Batman crime has no punchline" and just drops the crime he is in the middle of pulling off and makes Harley return all the loot. Ledger's Joker wanted to protect Batman's identity from being spilled by Reese on T.V. because he envisioned life without Batman would be "So BORING!".

There's a long running history in the Batman lore that Joker is around because of Batman. Without him he would cease to be what he is. Something 'Going Sane' really explored. Its a really interesting dynamic, and helps separate Joker from the other villains whom mostly just want to kill Batman because he's an obstacle to their crimes.

But, IS THE JOKER TRULY CRAZY THEN? If so, the cause of his psychosis disappearing wouldn't spring him back to complete sanity.

That's not how the world works, even a comic book world. Someone as crazy as Joker, in the real world, would be locked up and never given the opportunity to reenter society. They try to do that in the fictional DCU too but he always escapes. It's an insult to anyone with real mental illness to suggest that heavy and deep psychosis can just be instantly cured if the thing that causes them to crack suddenly doesn't exist anymore. DeMatteis likes to write a lot of dark psychology into his fiction, but I think before he ever tried that he should have actually read deep into how actual mental illness works.

What I suggested in my previous post would be much more plausible. What happened in DKR is much more plausible. If Joker needs Batman and then Batman goes bye-bye, Joker would sink deeper into psychosis, not be Mr. Joe Kerr-Happy Pants! all of a sudden.

 

[The Joker]

But, IS THE JOKER TRULY CRAZY THEN? If so, the cause of his psychosis disappearing wouldn't spring him back to complete sanity.

That's not how the world works, even a comic book world. Someone as crazy as Joker, in the real world, would be locked up and never given the opportunity to reenter society. They try to do that in the fictional DCU too but he always escapes. It's an insult to anyone with real mental illness to suggest that heavy and deep psychosis can just be instantly cured if the thing that causes them to crack suddenly doesn't exist anymore. DeMatteis likes to write a lot of dark psychology into his fiction, but I think before he ever tried that he should have actually read deep into how actual mental illness works.

What I suggested in my previous post would be much more plausible. What happened in DKR is much more plausible. If Joker needs Batman and then Batman goes bye-bye, Joker would sink deeper into psychosis, not be Mr. Joe Kerr-Happy Pants! all of a sudden.

If you want to start trying to apply real world rules to the Joker then most of the character's premise doesn't hold up. In the real world Joker would have been executed long ago instead of constantly being returned to the revolving escape door that is Arkham.

 

[Wildcard]

I don't mind the idea of them having a cause and effect type of relationship, and I do sometimes like that Batman himself is the catalyst for a lot of what happens in Gotham, but I don't think Joker and Batman NEED to have each other be the reason they exist the way they do. More often than not, I prefer when their stories intersect before developing their respective identities but their origins aren't dependent upon one another.

Basically, I like stories that tell you Joker was gonna end up being Joker regardless and Bruce was gonna be Batman regardless of any prior interactions they may or may not have had.