World Donner Cut = Rubbish. Discuss.

[Upper_Krust]

Hey everyone!

I just got to see the Richard Donner cut of Superman II on Friday night and all I could think was thank heavens this was not the version released because it was rubbish.

Over the past few months the hype has been building up, and people have been singing its praises. But after having seen it, Richard Lester's version blows it out of the water. I was watching it with a group of friends and they were all disappointed.

Okay, so thats just my opinion, so lets get to the details of why.

1. Illogical

1a. Lois Shooting Clark with blanks and then he reveals his identity. Superman could see whether there was a bullet coming at him or not. When he saw there was not he should have just fainted.

1b. What was the point of Superman transforming into a human. He had already slept with Lois, so clearly it was safe to biologically 'love' her.

1c. The Rocky fight at the end. Given that Superman had went back in time. Superman basically beat up Rocky for something he didn't do.

2. Less Action/Excitement

2a. No Kryptonians versus the locals! That scene built up the menace nicely and got them noticed by the media in the first place. Here we just get them talking to the media with no reason for why a camera crew was there.

2b. No fight between Superman and the Kryptonians at the Fortress of Solitude. Okay, so Superman purists will roll their eyes at some of the powers and the plastic 'S', but it was a cool, interesting scene that was alot better than Superman just giving up (which he does in the Donner cut).

3. Less Fun

3a. The scene with the Sheriff and his Deputy encountering the Kryptonians for the first time was cut to ribbons.

3b. The 'bar room brawl' with the Kryptonians in the town was also cut.

4. Less Dramatic

4a. No "General Zod...would you care to step outside" line. Richard Donner cut the best line in the movie. The iconic Superman smack talk. Frankly I was sickened to the pit of my stomach that Donner cut this line.

4b. No replacing the flag on the Whitehouse. Now I am not an American, but even I felt the gravitas of that scene. Again cut by Donner.

5. Devils Advocate...was it all so bad...?

Okay, there were a few good scenes added, but nothing removed (with the possible exception of the Brando scene) was removed for the better.

5a. The Lois falling out the window scene was a nice scene.

5b. The Lois shooting Clark scene had one good line (the one about the price of roses).

5c. I think there were some extra moments at the Whitehouse that were good (such as Zod using the M16).

5d. Lex taking the coffee from Jimmy. Jimmy being mistaken for Superman.

All of the above could have been added to the Lester cut. Its not the additions I am criticising, it is the replacements and scenes from the original that were deleted.

Overall.

To think that Richard Donner will get paid for this is the biggest insult since Bryan Singer cashed a cheque for $50 million dollars for Superman Returns.

Speaking of which, going by the Donner Cut, Superman and Lois never slept together!

The true unsung hero of all this is Richard Lester.

 

[November Rain]

pwned...

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Hey everyone!

I just got to see the Richard Donner cut of Superman II on Friday night and all I could think was thank heavens this was not the version released because it was rubbish.

Over the past few months the hype has been building up, and people have been singing its praises. But after having seen it, Richard Lester's version blows it out of the water. I was watching it with a group of friends and they were all disappointed.

Okay, so thats just my opinion, so lets get to the details of why.

1. Illogical



1a. Lois Shooting Clark with blanks and then he reveals his identity. Superman could see whether there was a bullet coming at him or not. When he saw there was not he should have just fainted.

1b. What was the point of Superman transforming into a human. He had already slept with Lois, so clearly it was safe to biologically 'love' her.

1c. The Rocky fight at the end. Given that Superman had went back in time. Superman basically beat up Rocky for something he didn't do.

2. Less Action/Excitement

2a. No Kryptonians versus the locals! That scene built up the menace nicely and got them noticed by the media in the first place. Here we just get them talking to the media with no reason for why a camera crew was there.

2b. No fight between Superman and the Kryptonians at the Fortress of Solitude. Okay, so Superman purists will roll their eyes at some of the powers and the plastic 'S', but it was a cool, interesting scene that was alot better than Superman just giving up (which he does in the Donner cut).

3. Less Fun

3a. The scene with the Sheriff and his Deputy encountering the Kryptonians for the first time was cut to ribbons.

3b. The 'bar room brawl' with the Kryptonians in the town was also cut.

4. Less Dramatic

4a. No "General Zod...would you care to step outside" line. Richard Donner cut the best line in the movie. The iconic Superman smack talk. Frankly I was sickened to the pit of my stomach that Donner cut this line.

4b. No replacing the flag on the Whitehouse. Now I am not an American, but even I felt the gravitas of that scene. Again cut by Donner.

5. Devils Advocate...was it all so bad...?

Okay, there were a few good scenes added, but nothing removed (with the possible exception of the Brando scene) was removed for the better.

5a. The Lois falling out the window scene was a nice scene.

5b. The Lois shooting Clark scene had one good line (the one about the price of roses).

5c. I think there were some extra moments at the Whitehouse that were good (such as Zod using the M16).

5d. Lex taking the coffee from Jimmy. Jimmy being mistaken for Superman.

All of the above could have been added to the Lester cut. Its not the additions I am criticising, it is the replacements and scenes from the original that were deleted.

Overall.

To think that Richard Donner will get paid for this is the biggest insult since Bryan Singer cashed a cheque for $50 million dollars for Superman Returns.

Speaking of which, going by the Donner Cut, Superman and Lois never slept together!

The true unsung hero of all this is Richard Lester.

You act as if the DVD was 'The Best Elements of Donner and Lester Cut.' It's not. It's the 'Richard Donner Cut.'

1a. Superman does not have his x-ray vision on 24/7. Why would he assume Lois might have blanks? They are harder to come by than real bullets.

1b. The point of Superman giving up his powers is so he can become a human being and live a normal life with Lois. If he has his powers he'll always go and help people. If it was Superman giving up his powers for sex, as you assume, it would be awful and cheapen the character.

1c. No. He never beat up Rocky for revenge - that's not a Superman concept. He needed to teach that bully a lesson, and failed the first time. Rocky was waiting for him comepppance.

2a & b. Donner wanted to use the least Lester footage he could.

3a & b. Donner wanted to cut all the slapstick comedy.

4a. Again, "Care to step outside?" was a Lester line. The freedom of the press line was Donner. It's the Donner cut, hence the Donner line.

4b. Obviously the White House scene is gone because Supes has turned back time. If he went to the White House they would have no idea what he was talking about.

 

[Fried Gold]

1a. Lois Shooting Clark with blanks and then he reveals his identity. Superman could see whether there was a bullet coming at him or not. When he saw there was not he should have just fainted.

But it was better than falling into a little log fire...

1b. What was the point of Superman transforming into a human. He had already slept with Lois, so clearly it was safe to biologically 'love' her.

Spanner. It's not about sleaping with Lois, it's about removing the burden of responsibilty so he lead a normal life with the woman he loves.

1c. The Rocky fight at the end. Given that Superman had went back in time. Superman basically beat up Rocky for something he didn't do.

I felt the cut could've done without this scene, but it's still quite nice.

2a. No Kryptonians versus the locals! That scene built up the menace nicely and got them noticed by the media in the first place. Here we just get them talking to the media with no reason for why a camera crew was there.

I wouldn't call Ursa having an arm wrestle with some hick 'menacing'.

2b. No fight between Superman and the Kryptonians at the Fortress of Solitude. Okay, so Superman purists will roll their eyes at some of the powers and the plastic 'S', but it was a cool, interesting scene that was alot better than Superman just giving up (which he does in the Donner cut).

No, this new version was miles better than Made up powers-man.

3a. The scene with the Sheriff and his Deputy encountering the Kryptonians for the first time was cut to ribbons.

Unnecessary humour, taking away the actual threat.

3b. The 'bar room brawl' with the Kryptonians in the town was also cut.

Thank God.

4a. No "General Zod...would you care to step outside" line. Richard Donner cut the best line in the movie. The iconic Superman smack talk. Frankly I was sickened to the pit of my stomach that Donner cut this line.

I really liked that line, but as stated above, it's the Donner cut.

4b. No replacing the flag on the Whitehouse. Now I am not an American, but even I felt the gravitas of that scene. Again cut by Donner.

The scene could not have stayed, given the new ending...

Speaking of which, going by the Donner Cut, Superman and Lois never slept together!

It's almost as though you think that the original Superman films are in strict continuity with Superman Returns...

 

[Captain Villa]

We're seeing the "vision" not the polished end product. He was never allowed to finish it to get it all done with the edges knocked off.

Thats why Lesters looks better.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kevin!

You act as if the DVD was 'The Best Elements of Donner and Lester Cut.' It's not. It's the 'Richard Donner Cut.'

I can only comment on whats before me. Some of the additions were cool, but virtually every deletion was a bad decision in my opinion.

Donner's Cut was interesting, but ultimately makes for a much weaker movie.

Personally I would love to see an extended cut which keeps virtually all of the Lester material but adds the extra Donner material wherein possible.

1a. Superman does not have his x-ray vision on 24/7. Why would he assume Lois might have blanks? They are harder to come by than real bullets.

But he owns up after she fires the gun. He could easily see there was no bullet.

1b. The point of Superman giving up his powers is so he can become a human being and live a normal life with Lois. If he has his powers he'll always go and help people. If it was Superman giving up his powers for sex, as you assume, it would be awful and cheapen the character.

But thats idiotic (as represented by the fact that in the comics he doesn't need to surrender his power to live with Lois). It makes far more sense in the Lester version.

1c. No. He never beat up Rocky for revenge - that's not a Superman concept. He needed to teach that bully a lesson, and failed the first time. Rocky was waiting for him comepppance.

It didn't work in that context though. Superman beat a guy up for his past, and/or future actions, not for what he was currently doing. It was vigilante style retribution.

2a & b. Donner wanted to use the least Lester footage he could.

3a & b. Donner wanted to cut all the slapstick comedy.

I understand that, but in so doing he really nerfed a lot of the cool stuff.

The exception being the overtly goofy vignettes when the mob of people attack Zod in the street.

4a. Again, "Care to step outside?" was a Lester line. The freedom of the press line was Donner. It's the Donner cut, hence the Donner line.

I know that - and I am simply stating which one is better...FAR better.

4b. Obviously the White House scene is gone because Supes has turned back time. If he went to the White House they would have no idea what he was talking about.

Indeed. But I am talking within the context of closing a movie. The White House scene has much more gravitas than Lois wanting a pizza.

Next thing you'll be telling me a big finale from a hospital bed is the way to go.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fried Gold!

But it was better than falling into a little log fire...

I disagree. That was in keeping with the bungling persona of Clark Kent. Superman may have subconsciously wanted to tell Lois the truth (which he half admits after the fact) hence the trip.

Spanner. It's not about sleaping with Lois, it's about removing the burden of responsibilty so he lead a normal life with the woman he loves.

Its got Singerman written all over it.

I felt the cut could've done without this scene, but it's still quite nice.

It works in the original context of the Lester cut, not here.

I wouldn't call Ursa having an arm wrestle with some hick 'menacing'.

I think it was a great insight into their characters. Evil for its own sake.

No, this new version was miles better than Made up powers-man.

Yet they still kept the levitating shotgun trick in...go figure.

The fight scene in the Fortress was cool and original, if distancing itself slightly from the comics. In that capacity the new stuff was forgivable.

Unnecessary humour, taking away the actual threat.

Not at all, simply because Zod doesn't join in the fun and we gradually get to see his patience wearing thin, before he starts shouting at the American General.

Non is stupid, Ursa is wicked, while Zod is evil. We get to see that here in a microcosm.

Thank God.

...Zod.

I really liked that line, but as stated above, it's the Donner cut.

I'm only stating which is better.

The scene could not have stayed, given the new ending...

See my previous reply to Kevin Roegele.

It's almost as though you think that the original Superman films are in strict continuity with Superman Returns...

I think the only thing we can be certain of is that Bryan Singer doesn't have a clue where hes following on from.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

1b. The point of Superman giving up his powers is so he can become a human being and live a normal life with Lois. If he has his powers he'll always go and help people. If it was Superman giving up his powers for sex, as you assume, it would be awful and cheapen the character.

Bingo!

 

[FlawlessVictory]

4. Less Dramatic

4a. No "General Zod...would you care to step outside" line. Richard Donner cut the best line in the movie. The iconic Superman smack talk. Frankly I was sickened to the pit of my stomach that Donner cut this line.

4b. No replacing the flag on the Whitehouse. Now I am not an American, but even I felt the gravitas of that scene. Again cut by Donner.

I thought the Donner Cut was much more dramatic because of the removal of the slapstick comedy and the addition of the Brando scenes. The entire scene where Jor-El is saying to Kal-El "Look at me!" is pretty intense and I would say much more dramatic than anything that is in the Lester cut.

I do prefer the "General Zod, would you care to step outside" line as well. I also agree that Donner should have used(even if he didn't film it) the placing of the flag on the Whitehouse. That scene with the transition of Superman flying over the earth ends the movie perfectly.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Captain Villa!

We're seeing the "vision" not the polished end product. He was never allowed to finish it to get it all done with the edges knocked off.

Thats why Lesters looks better.

Thats not what I am talking about at all. I'm not talking about production quality.

All I am saying is that the story/scenes/dialogue in the Lester version work a hell of a lot better than what Richard Donner had planned.

In that respect I find the original Lester version far more satisfying in almost* every single way.

*The exceptions being the less goofy vignettes of the mob, and the added Brando footage.

The other additions are great, but the stuff that was cut from Lester's version doesn't make for a better movie. That is the point I am trying to make.

Donner's Cut was an interesting aside, but no more than that.

Personally I'd love to see the Lester version with the added Donner footage (in places where it doesn't conflict, like Lois falling out the window, Zod firing the M16, etc.)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi FlawlessVictory!

I thought the Donner Cut was much more dramatic because of the removal of the slapstick comedy and the addition of the Brando scenes. The entire scene where Jor-El is saying to Kal-El "Look at me!" is pretty intense and I would say much more dramatic than anything that is in the Lester cut.

It goes without saying the Brando scenes were awesome. Those were the one element I thought warranted the replacement.

The slapstick elements of the mob I also agree with, should have been deleted, because they were just far too over the top (although you'll note they kept in the guy on roller skates briefly).

But not the humor of the Sheriff/Deputy, Bar Room Brawl and basically the whole town scene. I thought that was fantastic.

I do prefer the "General Zod, would you care to step outside" line as well. I also agree that Donner should have used(even if he didn't film it) the placing of the flag on the Whitehouse. That scene with the transition of Superman flying over the earth ends the movie perfectly.

Those are the two most iconic moments in the movie. Just didn't feel like Superman II without them.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

UpperKrust, let's go back to the Rocky in the diner stuff.

The point of the scenes is to illustrate the Clark is supposed to be Superman. The guy is the diner is obviously a bully and always will be until he's taught a lesson. But Superman, the man who is there to do that stuff, has given up his powers, so when he should be teaching this guy a lesson, he gets his ass kicked.

(And then the sheer genius drama of having Zod appear on TV.....Clark got his ass handed to him by what should be small fry to him, and now General Zod is on earth. Sends shivers down my spine. I wrote about the brilliance of that scene for Media Studies and got an A. Anyway....)

When Clark returns to the diner at the end, of course it's not revenge or Donner & co would never have included it. It's Superman righting a wrong. It seems very much like a revenge attack I agree, but it isn't.

 

[bunk]

Do they still have the president of the United States saying the rest of the world has given him the right to speak for all of them in their behalf? If anything should be cut out of that movie, it's that scene. One of the most ridiculous things I've seen ever on film.

 

[Freddy_Krueger]

Nope, that was actually a Donner thing and left in.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Do they still have the president of the United States saying the rest of the world has given him the right to speak for all of them in their behalf? If anything should be cut out of that movie, it's that scene. One of the most ridiculous things I've seen ever on film.

The President has to speak on behalf of the world, Zod and co are in the White House, not at the UN.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kevin!

UpperKrust, let's go back to the Rocky in the diner stuff.

Okay.

The point of the scenes is to illustrate the Clark is supposed to be Superman. The guy is the diner is obviously a bully and always will be until he's taught a lesson. But Superman, the man who is there to do that stuff, has given up his powers, so when he should be teaching this guy a lesson, he gets his ass kicked.

You are missing the point I am making.

In the Donner Cut, Superman goes back in time to before his encounter with Rocky, THEN he goes and seeks out Rocky and beats him up for a 'crime he didn't commit' basically. In that time stream he had never encountered Rocky before. Its a a vigilante action - pure and simple.

(And then the sheer genius drama of having Zod appear on TV.....Clark got his ass handed to him by what should be small fry to him, and now General Zod is on earth. Sends shivers down my spine. I wrote about the brilliance of that scene for Media Studies and got an A. Anyway....)

Well done, but you'll find I am a tougher sell than your Media Studies teacher.

When Clark returns to the diner at the end, of course it's not revenge or Donner & co would never have included it. It's Superman righting a wrong. It seems very much like a revenge attack I agree, but it isn't.

It doesn't make sense after Superman going back in time, it only makes sense in the Lester cut.

 

[bunk]

The President has to speak on behalf of the world, Zod and co are in the White House, not at the UN.

I understand why they wrote that in. It's just completely ubsurd, the idea of any country letting the US speak for it. Imagine China or North Korea just handing over control like that. There would be riots all across the globe just for that alone. It's just poor writing. But than again so is Superman turning back time, so I guess it doesn't matter.

 

[SweetTooth]

I loved seeing all the deleted/alternate scenes in the donner cut. But as a movie i thought the donner cut didn't work, it felt too incomplete. It only worked for me as a collection of deleted scenes. I, by far prefer the theatrical cut. It's much more fun and exciting and feels like a complete film.

 

[Marcus M.]

I never considered those made up powers in the Lester cut when they had that little fight in the fortress. I always thought of it as Superman using technology in the fortress.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

You are missing the point I am making.

In the Donner Cut, Superman goes back in time to before his encounter with Rocky, THEN he goes and seeks out Rocky and beats him up for a 'crime he didn't commit' basically. In that time stream he had never encountered Rocky before. Its a a vigilante action - pure and simple.

No, you're missing my point.

Forget Rocky beating up Clark.

Rocky is a bully. That's the point of the character. Clark, as Superman, is supposed to deal with bullies. He's there to give Rocky his comeuppance. He's not able to. When he gets his powers back, he shows that he finally is doing what he is supposed to do, take care of bullies like Rocky.

Revenge has nothing to do with it. The fact that Superman turned back time has nothing to do with it. It was a wrong that needed to be righted. Supes couldn't do it the first time. He does it the second time. That's why the staff and customers are so delighted when Clark does take care of Rocky. He did it for them, not himself.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

I understand why they wrote that in. It's just completely ubsurd, the idea of any country letting the US speak for it. Imagine China or North Korea just handing over control like that. There would be riots all across the globe just for that alone. It's just poor writing. But than again so is Superman turning back time, so I guess it doesn't matter.

This was 1980, the world was a different place. First of all, the US would assume Zod and co were Russian. Regardless, it's not bad writing.

 

[bunk]

This was 1980, the world was a different place. First of all, the US would assume Zod and co were Russian. Regardless, it's not bad writing.

No, it really is. Funny you even mention the Russians, they'd let themselves be wiped off the planet before they'd give the US contol of their lives. Half the planet would think it was some bulls*** the US made up. They could've made it clear in the story that Zod had plans to move on to the rest of the world. That would've been added drama knowing Zod and co were about to start wrecking a different country. Instead, the threat level had been decreased because the whole planet immedietely gave in.

 

[dude stannis]

Speaking of which, going by the Donner Cut, Superman and Lois never slept together!

The true unsung hero of all this is Richard Lester.

When Superman spins the world back in time, he starts to exist outside of time. Meaning, anything he did doesn't get reversed, because he's not physically there for things to be reversed. If Superman where to appear on Connan O'Brien, take a dump in his hair and then spin the world back in time, the turds would still be there, despite Connan forgetting Supes was on the show, likewise Supermans spooge was still in Lois while he was turning back time. Ever notice why you never saw two Supermans after he spun the world back in time?

 

[Morgoth]

Donner's cut is the only way to watch 2. Lester's crap is just that, crap. This one has no cheese at all. Richard did a great first film, and it is great to see his sequel to that first great film. Nuff said.

 

[the_narc_2000]

Do they still have the president of the United States saying the rest of the world has given him the right to speak for all of them in their behalf? If anything should be cut out of that movie, it's that scene. One of the most ridiculous things I've seen ever on film.

Well, in the original screenplay, the supervillains attack many other countries of the world and destroy their monuments. Lester decided it would be better for them to attack a small hick town. So in the context of the original storyline, the President surrendering on behalf of the world makes sense.