World Donner Cut = Rubbish. Discuss.

I agree, the definitive SII will never happen.



Just to know, what's exactly good about that?


I dunno, I thought it was very cool, especially his delivery of the line.The "game" was a nice added touch.

I could have done without the cellophane "S", but you can't win em all I guess.
 
I loved the Donner Cut. Was it perfect? No, But it was alot of fun which is what a movie should be. As I watched it I felt like I was 10 years old again watching a whole new Chris Reeve Superman movie. :up:
 
Superman 2 the original was my favorite comic book movie of all time. So when i heard about the donner's cut, I was excited beyond belief. Finally the ultimate movie....getting even better. I and one of those that liked donner's cut, but ultimately, i think i would take lester if i only had one choice (i have both).

--Destroying the fortress?? why?
--keeping zods and goons in jail with the cops coming to the fortress??
--i did like the shooting clark scene better than him tripping over the bear head and putting his hand in the fire. But i also liked lois jumping out of the window and lois jumping into the water. So keep all three
--the last fight scene from the original was awesome (minus the plastic s)
--"care to step outside"...should have stayed
--many of the interactions of zod with locals was cool too and should have stayed.
 
I just purchased the bluray of this and watched it the other day.My feelings on it are mixed.Some pros:

1)Any scene with Marlon Brando owned.Thematically,it tied into Superman:The movie much better than having Superman interact with his mother in the Lester version.I understand the politics surrounding Brando not being in II,but looking at this Donner cut,there should be no debate that Brando's scenes are far more powerful and appropriate in line with the Jor-el-Ka-lel relationship established in the first movie.

2) Showing how Ka-lel got his powers back. Since it was never explained in the original II,it's nice to see here.

3) The opening scene of Lois jumping out the window.I don't mind the jumping into Niagara Falls scene,but this one thematically serves the same purpose.

4) Some completely unnecessary scenes were cut,mainly the 3 villians in the bar.Utterly pointless.

5)Superman sleeping with Lois BEFORE changing makes more sense continuity wise as far as him having a superhuman son in Returns.If you accept Lester's version that Supes and Lois have sex(and presumably impregnates her at that point) AFTER Supes has been depowered,then they should have produced a perfectly normal human child.

6) The redone opening credits scene,more in line with the original.I liked that John Williams' version of the main theme was reused,as opposed to the Lester cut opening main theme which sounded like it was played by an elementary school band.

Some cons:

1) The first,and most obvious,the time reversal scene completely duplicated from the first movie.Not only is reusing it cheap, but it creates too many loopholes.First,if you accept that Superman 3 and 4 don't exist and that Superman Returns continues from II,then Lois' pregnancy should have been undone,and there should be no child in Returns. Lester's version with the super kiss sucks too,but at least Lois technically would still become pregnant.Of course,that would also mean that she would have no memory of who impregnated her,which than means she shouldn't know that Supes is the father in Superman Returns,yet it seems that she does.Loopholes,loopholes.

And of course, the ass-kicking he received from Rocky technically never happened,yet he still goes back at the end to confront him.Yeah thematically,the bully always needs to get his in the end,but it is still a loophole,and it of course makes it look like Superman just wanted revenge,although that's always been there and it cheapens him.Superman is above silly things like vengeance.

2) The removal of 'General,would you care to step outside?' Loved that line,it is badass through and through.Some of Lester's footage was left in this cut,and that is something I would have left in.The 'freedom' of the press line' don't touch it.

3)The removal of the fight scene in the fortress. It greatly shortens the fight between Superman and the villains.I know people have issues with the atypical powers displayed(plastic S,multiple Supermans,etc),but I always accepted it as Superman,because of him being in the fortress,having access to powers and abilities he wouldn't have outside the fortress.Abilities that he would need to even the score a bit since he was obviously outmanned(and outwomaned) but 3 individuals with his powers.There's no way Superman,through force,would be able to win and by going to the fortress,it evened the odds a bit since he was able to do things that the 3 villains obviously weren't aware of.I always figured that was the point of Supes flying off from the city,as well as to stop any further damage and harm to the people.

4)In Lester's cut,Superman shows up 5 minutes into the movie to attend to the crisis in Paris.Now,I understand that the point of that scene was so that Superman accidently frees the villains by throwing the H bomb into space.In Donner's version,the villians are freed from the exploding rocket that Supes send into space from Superman:the movie.So the paris scene has no point in Donner's cut,but it also means that Superman doesn't show up till like 45 minutes into the movie when he saves the little boy at Niagara falls.Wayyyy too long for him to make his 'first' appreance as Supes.

5) I was personally distracted by the obviously cheap and fake looking effects,especially the outer space ones.Also,the scene in the hotel room where Lois discover's Clark's secret,Clark's hair changing was jarring.Yeah I know it was 2 screen tests woven together ,but nevertheless I found it distracting.It's also interesting to note that Margot Kidder looked different in the Lester scenes and Donner scenes.She was,of course, younger in the Donner scenes,and in my opinion a good deal cuter.Looking at the 4 movies,she didn't age particularly well.
 
And of course, the ass-kicking he received from Rocky technically never happened,yet he still goes back at the end to confront him.Yeah thematically,the bully always needs to get his in the end,but it is still a loophole,and it of course makes it look like Superman just wanted revenge,although that's always been there and it cheapens him.Superman is above silly things like vengeance.

I didn't take it as Supes wanting revenge....more as he knows there is amajor jerk and menace to society out there that needs a dressing down.
 
I didn't take it as Supes wanting revenge....more as he knows there is amajor jerk and menace to society out there that needs a dressing down.

Perhaps,but there's lots of jerks running around society.Supes took it upon himself to personally deal with this particular jerk because this jerk kicked his ass when he was human.So,it's more retribution for the audience to see Supes get even,but it's abit out of character.That's scene's purpose is not for Supes to come up in the end and get his revenge,it's to show how weak and defenseless he had become as the world is facing a great threat(3 villians).I repeat again that Superman is beyond vengeance,especially at the expense of a regular human being,******* or not.He's supposed to be a being of pure good and honor,things like revenge,vengeance,jealousy,etc are human traits.Even though Superman was raised among humans he is supposed to be wholesome and good.
 
Perhaps,but there's lots of jerks running around society.Supes took it upon himself to personally deal with this particular jerk because this jerk kicked his ass when he was human.So,it's more retribution for the audience to see Supes get even,but it's abit out of character.That's scene's purpose is not for Supes to come up in the end and get his revenge,it's to show how weak and defenseless he had become as the world is facing a great threat(3 villians).I repeat again that Superman is beyond vengeance,especially at the expense of a regular human being,******* or not.He's supposed to be a being of pure good and honor,things like revenge,vengeance,jealousy,etc are human traits.Even though Superman was raised among humans he is supposed to be wholesome and good.

Yes...there are a lot of jerks out there in the world...but Supes can't do anything about them until he learns of them. Here was a guy who had been practicly terrorizing a bunch of people for lord knows how long, and thought nothing of attacking people he determined were weaker than himself. Superman wouldnever have crossed his path in his normal day...but he met him as Clark and found out that this jerk was a menace to the people around him.
 
I just purchased the bluray of this and watched it the other day.My feelings on it are mixed.Some pros:

1)Any scene with Marlon Brando owned.Thematically,it tied into Superman:The movie much better than having Superman interact with his mother in the Lester version.I understand the politics surrounding Brando not being in II,but looking at this Donner cut,there should be no debate that Brando's scenes are far more powerful and appropriate in line with the Jor-el-Ka-lel relationship established in the first movie.

Agreed, the Brando scenes were much more powerful and keeping with the first movie's spirit. I liked Clark interacting with his mother in Lester's version, but this with Brando is how it always should have been.

2) Showing how Ka-lel got his powers back. Since it was never explained in the original II,it's nice to see here.

Again liked much better and also the fact that when he became human the suit didn't just disappear in this version. He was already in his civies--oh man and Lois standing there in his Super shirt how hot was that!

3) The opening scene of Lois jumping out the window.I don't mind the jumping into Niagara Falls scene,but this one thematically serves the same purpose.

I enjoyed this scene much more than the NF scene. And we finally got to see CR use his superspeed.

4) Some completely unnecessary scenes were cut,mainly the 3 villians in the bar.Utterly pointless.

I for one am glad they cut as much campy stuff with the 3 villians as they did including the bar room scene.

5)Superman sleeping with Lois BEFORE changing makes more sense continuity wise as far as him having a superhuman son in Returns.If you accept Lester's version that Supes and Lois have sex(and presumably impregnates her at that point) AFTER Supes has been depowered,then they should have produced a perfectly normal human child.

I have given up on making sense of how SR fits into the older movies.

6) The redone opening credits scene,more in line with the original.I liked that John Williams' version of the main theme was reused,as opposed to the Lester cut opening main theme which sounded like it was played by an elementary school band.

Really liked the opening credits with the new SII design. Didn't care for how they edited the scenes from the original movie though to recap and explain Zod & co's escape. Something was just off about those cuts.

Some cons:

1) The first,and most obvious,the time reversal scene completely duplicated from the first movie.Not only is reusing it cheap, but it creates too many loopholes.First,if you accept that Superman 3 and 4 don't exist and that Superman Returns continues from II,then Lois' pregnancy should have been undone,and there should be no child in Returns. Lester's version with the super kiss sucks too,but at least Lois technically would still become pregnant.Of course,that would also mean that she would have no memory of who impregnated her,which than means she shouldn't know that Supes is the father in Superman Returns,yet it seems that she does.Loopholes,loopholes.

Again see above response regarding SR in this continuity, but do agree that reusing the time travel doesn't work for me and I think screws alot of things up story wise. But I believe that originally Donner said it was supposed to be in this movie and not the first, so if they could have redone both then it would work better. I will refrain from commenting on the "super-kiss"...*shivers*

And of course, the ass-kicking he received from Rocky technically never happened,yet he still goes back at the end to confront him.Yeah thematically,the bully always needs to get his in the end,but it is still a loophole,and it of course makes it look like Superman just wanted revenge,although that's always been there and it cheapens him.Superman is above silly things like vengeance.

Again makes no sense to go back and beat him up they way it's presented. Now if they had been able to reshoot and have Clark going by there and witnessing Rocky being a dick again to people and taking care of him that would have been better. But for a random stranger to come in and knock the guy around (especially when it's really Superman). But I chalk this up to the fact that we are merely watching an incomplete work..but the scene shouldn't have been included given the time travel resolution.

2) The removal of 'General,would you care to step outside?' Loved that line,it is badass through and through.Some of Lester's footage was left in this cut,and that is something I would have left in.The 'freedom' of the press line' don't touch it.

Yes the Lester line was much better and wish they had kept it in.

3)The removal of the fight scene in the fortress. It greatly shortens the fight between Superman and the villains.I know people have issues with the atypical powers displayed(plastic S,multiple Supermans,etc),but I always accepted it as Superman,because of him being in the fortress,having access to powers and abilities he wouldn't have outside the fortress.Abilities that he would need to even the score a bit since he was obviously outmanned(and outwomaned) but 3 individuals with his powers.There's no way Superman,through force,would be able to win and by going to the fortress,it evened the odds a bit since he was able to do things that the 3 villains obviously weren't aware of.I always figured that was the point of Supes flying off from the city,as well as to stop any further damage and harm to the people.

It is a fun scene, but wish it was explained as more a fortress thing and not a unknown Superman power thing...In the Lester version he did mention that he played that game as a kid so I guess that does kind of explain that it is fortress related--since on Krypton he would have been powerless.

4)In Lester's cut,Superman shows up 5 minutes into the movie to attend to the crisis in Paris.Now,I understand that the point of that scene was so that Superman accidently frees the villains by throwing the H bomb into space.In Donner's version,the villians are freed from the exploding rocket that Supes send into space from Superman:the movie.So the paris scene has no point in Donner's cut,but it also means that Superman doesn't show up till like 45 minutes into the movie when he saves the little boy at Niagara falls.Wayyyy too long for him to make his 'first' appreance as Supes.

Naturally with a sequel you want to see the hero as early as possible (since you already have sat through a long origin film to build him up). But this actually didn't bother me in the Donner cut.

5) I was personally distracted by the obviously cheap and fake looking effects,especially the outer space ones.Also,the scene in the hotel room where Lois discover's Clark's secret,Clark's hair changing was jarring.Yeah I know it was 2 screen tests woven together ,but nevertheless I found it distracting.It's also interesting to note that Margot Kidder looked different in the Lester scenes and Donner scenes.She was,of course, younger in the Donner scenes,and in my opinion a good deal cuter.Looking at the 4 movies,she didn't age particularly well.


I felt the new effects added blended with the original effects of the period very well. (even liked that remark in the documentary by Donner about the effects and he was told they did have a budget and were trying to make it match).

The screen tests are a little distracting, but I guess you just have to keep in my mind that this is technically just a work in progress or a look at what could have been and let it go. Didn't take away from my overall enjoyment of the film.

And yes in the Donner scenes Margot Kidder was so much better looking. That is one thing that has always bothered me about the sequels. In the first film I thought she was very attractive but the rest she looked and even talked so different. I guess it's kinda like Uma Thurman, she is always so hot in Tarantino's movies, but in a lot of her others she doesn't look quite the same. Donner just knew how to shoot her I guess.


One thing I will add that I didn't see you mention that is one of my biggest gripes of this cut---THE D-MN TOILET FLUSH!!??!! I mean WTF was that garbage?! I know it's probably nit pickey and ridiculous for me to say, but come on there are some things you just don't want to think about. I am sure Supes has a bathroom in there but do we want to discuss or make jokes of it. Really wish that had been left out.

Also the destruction of the FOS at the end. I wish that could have been explained a little better and what happened to Luthor and the Kryptonians (maybe include the Arctic Police scene no matter how cheesy)..but again this is an incomplete version.
 
Might I suggest to all of you who haven't seen it that the best version of Superman II is the Restored Intrenational Cut? It combines the best of both versions, plus some great stuff that is in neither.
 
Below is a link to a really good review breaking down the RIC. Definitely worth reading if you are interested in this version.

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/movies/movies.php?topic=sup2-RIC-review


To answer your question, neither the turning back time or memory wipe kiss were used. It was left with the balcony scene between Lois and Superman talking about how they cannot be together.
According to that review, it says that the memory wipe kiss was used like in the theatrical.
 
According to that review, it says that the memory wipe kiss was used like in the theatrical.


Thanks, went back and saw the section I had missed. Oh well I guess there is just no way of escaping the "kiss".

My mistake, that's what I get for skimming the page too fast.:yay:
 
Thanks, went back and saw the section I had missed. Oh well I guess there is just no way of escaping the "kiss".

My mistake, that's what I get for skimming the page too fast.:yay:

That's no problem.... I do, however, think Superman 2 should end without the mind-rape kiss or turning back time again. I think the best way to go would be Superman and Lois just realizing they can't be together and making some sort of peace with that. It worked for the 1st Spider-man film.
 
That's no problem.... I do, however, think Superman 2 should end without the mind-rape kiss or turning back time again. I think the best way to go would be Superman and Lois just realizing they can't be together and making some sort of peace with that. It worked for the 1st Spider-man film.


Yeah, it really gives the goodbye on the balcony scene alot of impact when you know Superman is giving up on his own needs for the worlds.

BTW-- "mind-rape kiss" that is priceless.:applaud
 
I though the Donner Cut was a poor excuse of a movie. I hated the new scenes with Marlon Brandon and Chris Reeve. I thought they were lame and badly acted. Lois with a Superman shirt? C`mon. Plus it had a very bad amateurish editing and the Turning back time ending ruined what was already a ****ty movie.

Lester`s was better film, IMO.
 
This movie was garbage and should never have been done. The ending was ridiculous.
 
Superman II cuts from worst to best

4. Lester version
3. Donner version
2. RIC cut
1. The idealised version in my head that I always imagined Donner's original cut was going to be
 
I though the Donner Cut was a poor excuse of a movie. I hated the new scenes with Marlon Brandon and Chris Reeve. I thought they were lame and badly acted. Lois with a Superman shirt? C`mon. Plus it had a very bad amateurish editing and the Turning back time ending ruined what was already a ****ty movie.

Lester`s was better film, IMO.


I admit the Donner cut wasn't as polished and put together as I would've liked, but come on I think the below speaks for itself :woot::

 
Does the video have Superman punching someone? 'Cos I thought people would like it for that at least. ;) :D

I'm glad I got to see the "new" footage. Although I wish they'd release a RIC type version (with the concorde and the other footage that was on TV in the eighties).

Angeloz
 
I just purchased the bluray of this and watched it the other day.My feelings on it are mixed.Some pros:

1)Any scene with Marlon Brando owned.Thematically,it tied into Superman:The movie much better than having Superman interact with his mother in the Lester version.I understand the politics surrounding Brando not being in II,but looking at this Donner cut,there should be no debate that Brando's scenes are far more powerful and appropriate in line with the Jor-el-Ka-lel relationship established in the first movie.

100% agreed.

2) Showing how Ka-lel got his powers back. Since it was never explained in the original II,it's nice to see here.

while i loved the explanation they gave, i kinda liked the fact that we didn't know what really happened, kinda gives it a mysterious feel.

3) The opening scene of Lois jumping out the window.I don't mind the jumping into Niagara Falls scene,but this one thematically serves the same purpose.

you could have kept both. i liked him using his powers to do everyday stuff. but either one worked.

4) Some completely unnecessary scenes were cut,mainly the 3 villians in the bar.Utterly pointless.

i liked those scenes cause it showed them learning how to use their powers. it's like getting a new toy for christmas when you were five.

5)Superman sleeping with Lois BEFORE changing makes more sense continuity wise as far as him having a superhuman son in Returns.If you accept Lester's version that Supes and Lois have sex(and presumably impregnates her at that point) AFTER Supes has been depowered,then they should have produced a perfectly normal human child.

This kinda bothered me because if he could sleep with her when he had the power, why the need to get depowered? sleeping with her after getting depowered was so much more dramatic, because he gave up being the most powerful being in the world for love. and i thought that was the point of him giving up his power.

6) The redone opening credits scene,more in line with the original.I liked that John Williams' version of the main theme was reused,as opposed to the Lester cut opening main theme which sounded like it was played by an elementary school band.

agreed.

Some cons:

1) The first,and most obvious,the time reversal scene completely duplicated from the first movie.Not only is reusing it cheap, but it creates too many loopholes.First,if you accept that Superman 3 and 4 don't exist and that Superman Returns continues from II,then Lois' pregnancy should have been undone,and there should be no child in Returns. Lester's version with the super kiss sucks too,but at least Lois technically would still become pregnant.Of course,that would also mean that she would have no memory of who impregnated her,which than means she shouldn't know that Supes is the father in Superman Returns,yet it seems that she does.Loopholes,loopholes.

And of course, the ass-kicking he received from Rocky technically never happened,yet he still goes back at the end to confront him.Yeah thematically,the bully always needs to get his in the end,but it is still a loophole,and it of course makes it look like Superman just wanted revenge,although that's always been there and it cheapens him.Superman is above silly things like vengeance.

from what i knew, Supes I and II was supposed to be one big movie, and the ending of both movies would be him going back in time. so it was not supposed to be used twice, only once at the end of part 2. yea none of that stuff you said would make sense, because each he reveresed the world, he would have to recatch the missles. it's not as good of a solution as he might think. i liked the payback scene. he has to have fun sometimes. can't be this good tooshoo all the time.

2) The removal of 'General,would you care to step outside?' Loved that line,it is badass through and through.Some of Lester's footage was left in this cut,and that is something I would have left in.The 'freedom' of the press line' don't touch it.

agreed. i loved that line, and wish it stayed.

3)The removal of the fight scene in the fortress. It greatly shortens the fight between Superman and the villains.I know people have issues with the atypical powers displayed(plastic S,multiple Supermans,etc),but I always accepted it as Superman,because of him being in the fortress,having access to powers and abilities he wouldn't have outside the fortress.Abilities that he would need to even the score a bit since he was obviously outmanned(and outwomaned) but 3 individuals with his powers.There's no way Superman,through force,would be able to win and by going to the fortress,it evened the odds a bit since he was able to do things that the 3 villains obviously weren't aware of.I always figured that was the point of Supes flying off from the city,as well as to stop any further damage and harm to the people.

one of the few that completely agrees with you here. the suit can be a special one the fortress created. and many supermans could be a tricked played by the fortress again.

4)In Lester's cut,Superman shows up 5 minutes into the movie to attend to the crisis in Paris.Now,I understand that the point of that scene was so that Superman accidently frees the villains by throwing the H bomb into space.In Donner's version,the villians are freed from the exploding rocket that Supes send into space from Superman:the movie.So the paris scene has no point in Donner's cut,but it also means that Superman doesn't show up till like 45 minutes into the movie when he saves the little boy at Niagara falls.Wayyyy too long for him to make his 'first' appreance as Supes.

i liked this better also. the paris scene was awesome.

5) I was personally distracted by the obviously cheap and fake looking effects,especially the outer space ones.Also,the scene in the hotel room where Lois discover's Clark's secret,Clark's hair changing was jarring.Yeah I know it was 2 screen tests woven together ,but nevertheless I found it distracting.It's also interesting to note that Margot Kidder looked different in the Lester scenes and Donner scenes.She was,of course, younger in the Donner scenes,and in my opinion a good deal cuter.Looking at the 4 movies,she didn't age particularly well.

yeah true, but i wrote this off since i knew what they had to do to make the movie work coherently in the first place, so i can understand there being a lot of mistakes.

nice review btw. welcome to the hype.
 
http://fanedit.org/wpTF/?p=22

3D_ADM_S2.jpg


Cuts removed/added/extended:

* Some of the specifics of this edit:

1. Alternate version of “Planet Krypton” cue by John Williams opens the film.
2. Non kills the guard, Zod Breaks the crystal and the rings come down. Cut to:
3. Brando asking the council to pronounce judgment.
4. As Phantom Zone speeds away, Krypton Explodes and Alexander Salkind credit speeds out of this. Credits are from Donner Cut.
5. Zoom into earth cuts to the tail-fire of the XK-101 Rocket with Supes chasing it.
6. Lots of bad CGI removed. Rocket Explodes, shattering Phantom Zone from Lester Cut but with “FREE!” mixed in. Fade out as Villains fly to the moon.
7. Fade in on Metropolis Street vendor, then cut to Perry reading the paper.
8. Lois Jumps. Bad eye-beam shots removed. Awning was always open.
9. Extended Prison sequence
10. Moon, with “curl” discussion back at Mission Control. Hairdryer line cut.
11. Donner’s getaway.
12. Tour of the honeymoon suite.
13. Heading North
14. Falls rescue is a hybrid of the two cuts, with Lois noticing Clark’s absence reinstated.
15. Donner’s version of Lex in the fortress
16. Pink Bear scene, trimmed down.
17. Heading South
18. Non picks up the snake, but only ponders it.
19. Superman takes Lois to the fortress, picks up flowers and dinner.
20. Ursa arm wrestles.
21. Dinner. No sex with Lois while super-powered. No Kryptonite condoms in this story.
22. Brando depowers Superman. Nookie afterward.
23. Donner cut for a long long time, until …
24. “Care to step outside?”
25. Donner cut Metropolis battle and Fortress
26. Arctic Police, Smallville line removed (with a fantastic musical edit behind this whole scene)
27. Fortress NOT destroyed. Cut straight to the kiss.
28. Tearful farewell on terrace
29. Memory Kiss
30. Elevator Bully
31. Diner Bully
32. Flag Flying High, end credits.

As far as I’m concerned, this is the definitive version of Superman II. I think all fans should at least give it a look.
 

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