DTL Season 5-Week 10 (Set 2)

[XFanTim]

I vote for B'wana Bet? Gog's lineup is a bit more impressive than the one he's up against.

I could really go either way on LV vs. Khell, but I guess I vote for Deadpool's Harem. I thought LV's strategy was a little more creative. But more importantly, Khell's writeup seemed somewhat dependent on using scanners to find the other team so he could ambush them, and then various tech to beat them. I'm pretty convinced by LV's argument that her team could trash the fortress's tech and phase any hand-held tech right out of their opponent's hands.

 

[Khellendros]

Okay, first of all... when has Byakko ever manipulated gravity? I've glanced through several of her appearances, and don't remember that being mentioned as one of her abilities.

Next...

- The only way I found in the comics for Brainiac 417 to get hurt is through telepathy. I guess it's a little weird that Angie would just know that, but I think it's the only conceivable way to hurt somebody who doesn't have a physical form and is not even in this dimension entirely. She'd at least try it.

Uh huh. And, how would she try it? She's never attacked anyone with telepathy. And, in fact, telepathic enemies are one thing the Authority is VERY vulnerable against. Meanwhile, he just has to touch her nannite armor and Angie is screwed over.

- The Immortals are split up by Byakko, and they lose their way of communicating. Nobody knows where everybody is so the teleporters couldn't teleport to eachother.

Yeah... you really didn't explain HOW that happened, how she separates them. I mean gravity manip does.. what? You seem to think they'd just stand there, letting her do whatever she wanted. And getting rid of their communicators... how, again? First, she'd need to know where they were. Second, since two of them are teleporters, she doesn't touch the Immortals without getting VERY lucky.

- To be honest, I think Byakko and Engineer by themselves could take care of this particular line-up, but I had to give the other characters something to do.

Byakko and Dead Girl are actually the most annoying challenges, but considering the fact that Brainiac is basically untouchable to your team, eventually they WILL be dealt with. Don't forget, my team knows all about yours, so he will know that sonics are VERY effective against Byakko, at the least. And Chunk could just absorb Dead Girl, since she doesn't really have anything in her arsenal that would take him out.

 

[LadyVader]

Okay, first of all... when has Byakko ever manipulated gravity? I've glanced through several of her appearances, and don't remember that being mentioned as one of her abilities.

Uh huh. And, how would she try it? She's never attacked anyone with telepathy. And, in fact, telepathic enemies are one thing the Authority is VERY vulnerable against. Meanwhile, he just has to touch her nannite armor and Angie is screwed over.

That's why I said she was using Byakko as a tranceiver of sorts. So Engineer was actually nowhere in sight. And since she uses radiotelepathy than she DOES have some understanding of how brainwaves work. This is not a full on mental assault in the sense of trying to control somebody elses mind. This is just about scrambling those mental pathways.

Yeah... you really didn't explain HOW that happened, how she separates them. I mean gravity manip does.. what? You seem to think they'd just stand there, letting her do whatever she wanted. And getting rid of their communicators... how, again? First, she'd need to know where they were. Second, since two of them are teleporters, she doesn't touch the Immortals without getting VERY lucky.

By changing the center of gravity she changes their position. So they're no longer attracted to the centre of the earth, they're attracted to a wall or something and they instantly "fall" in that direction. I agree, since two of them are teleporters, maybe this wasn't the best explanation. I could just said she makes the floor intangible or something and they fall in separate rooms. She shorts the comunicators by phasing through them. She can phase from any direction like from the floor for instance and they'd never feel it or see it coming until it's too late.

Byakko and Dead Girl are actually the most annoying challenges, but considering the fact that Brainiac is basically untouchable to your team, eventually they WILL be dealt with. Don't forget, my team knows all about yours, so he will know that sonics are VERY effective against Byakko, at the least. And Chunk could just absorb Dead Girl, since she doesn't really have anything in her arsenal that would take him out.

And don't forget that my team comes with image inducers and teleporters. So how would Chunk know for sure that it is Dead Girl he's fighting and not a member of his team. And that is a terrible example to begin with because she can always go intangible. If she doesn't have any mass, what is there to absorb?

It is ooooooonnnnn.

 

[Khellendros]

That's why I said she was using Byakko as a tranceiver of sorts. So Engineer was actually nowhere in sight. And since she uses radiotelepathy than she DOES have some understanding of how brainwaves work. This is not a full on mental assault in the sense of trying to control somebody elses mind. This is just about scrambling those mental pathways.

He doesn't HAVE "mental pathways". He's just energy with a forcefield that lets him interact with the physical world. There's no reason to believe she can have any effect on him like that. ESPECIALLY using someone else as a proxy.

By changing the center of gravity she changes their position. So they're no longer attracted to the centre of the earth, they're attracted to a wall or something and they instantly "fall" in that direction. I agree, since two of them are teleporters, maybe this wasn't the best explanation.

Maybe not.

I could just said she makes the floor intangible or something and they fall in separate rooms. She shorts the comunicators by phasing through them. She can phase from any direction like from the floor for instance and they'd never feel it or see it coming until it's too late.

Except, again, she'd have to touch them. They know what she is and what she can do, and that will make them very wary of her getting close.

And don't forget that my team comes with image inducers and teleporters. So how would Chunk know for sure that it is Dead Girl he's fighting and not a member of his team. And that is a terrible example to begin with because she can always go intangible. If she doesn't have any mass, what is there to absorb?

Yeah, I know you SAID she gave them all image inducers and teleporters, but we've had Brainiac hand out teleporting belts and flight tech and even plain old breathers for underwater fighting and had people object to that. So, I'm hoping there won't be too much hypocrisy taking place here.

Also, well, ****, so she can manipulate gravity. Luckily, it would seem she has to touch someone to make them heavier, so, again, on a team with a couple teleporters, that's not guaranteed to be a successful tactic. And her getting a hold on the three tiny little Mon Elves to do so is also pretty damned unlikely.

It is ooooooonnnnn.

Okay, now just take it offffff and we can really get down to some "debating".

 

[XFanTim]

I don't want to tread too much on anyone else's debate, but if you're going to start saying that in addition to Brainiac-417 being immune to all physical attacks, that only certain kinds of telepathy can affect him, then he's starting to get into Zeitgeist-like levels of unhurtability.

Yeah, I know you SAID she gave them all image inducers and teleporters, but we've had Brainiac hand out teleporting belts and flight tech and even plain old breathers for underwater fighting and had people object to that. So, I'm hoping there won't be too much hypocrisy taking place here.

Who the heck objected to underwater breathing units? For that matter, who objected to Legion flight rings? I've always thought it was fine for a tech-genius to give their team some basic tech. It just gets excessive when they're all using tech-based superweapons in lieu of their own powers.

Looking back on our match, the only comment I saw about excessive use of tech was Harl's, and that was after you gave everyone on your team:

- A teleportation device (capable of time travel and cross dimensional teleportation)
- Very effective shields which all but Brainiac use defensively.
- Flight rings (the whole legion had one)
- Scanning devices
- Gas shooting guns which rob super-humans of their superpowers
- Communication devices which allow everyone to stay in contact across dimensions

On top of that,
Xavier has:
Psi-blocking technology from the 853rd century

Brainiac 417 has:
Various tech from the 853rd century

Midnighter has:
853rd century weaponry, and depowering gas

And even Harl said he mostly voted for me because he agreed with me that Hadrian could beat Gideon.

Looking at your match with Wieg, no one mentioned excessive tech. And other than that you won every match. So what exactly are you complaining about?

 

[Khellendros]

I don't want to tread too much on anyone else's debate, but if you're going to start saying that in addition to Brainiac-417 being immune to all physical attacks, that only certain kinds of telepathy can affect him, then he's starting to get into Zeitgeist-like levels of unhurtability.

...He doesn't have a brain, per se, so no "brainwaves" to futz with. I'm sorry if that's a tremendous shock to you, but there you go. And, again, there's no reason to believe Engineer can do that. She's never used her radiotelepathy nannites in an offensive manner before.

Who the heck objected to underwater breathing units? For that matter, who objected to Legion flight rings? I've always thought it was fine for a tech-genius to give their team some basic tech. It just gets excessive when they're all using tech-based superweapons in lieu of their own powers.

Looking back on our match, the only comment I saw about excessive use of tech was Harl's, and that was after you gave everyone on your team:

And even Harl said he mostly voted for me because he agreed with me that Hadrian could beat Gideon.

Looking at your match with Wieg, no one mentioned excessive tech. And other than that you won every match. So what exactly are you complaining about?

I don't know, I seem to remember other people complaining about it. Faulty memory, I guess?

 

[Aristotle]

...He doesn't have a brain, per se, so no "brainwaves" to futz with. I'm sorry if that's a tremendous shock to you, but there you go. And, again, there's no reason to believe Engineer can do that. She's never used her radiotelepathy nannites in an offensive manner before.

I think I already know what the answer is going to be, but how exactly do you hurt this character then?

 

[XFanTim]

I don't know, I seem to remember other people complaining about it. Faulty memory, I guess?

Actually, now that I think about it, it might be that someone was complaining in the discussion thread about overuse of tech. So that could be what you're remembering. But suffice it to say, I don't think anyone's lost a match just for handing out basic tech like flight-rings, provided it's in character for their tech-guy to be making stuff for his teammates. I might object if there's so much tech that their powers become secondary (e.g., making someone an Iron Man suit), but not for the minor stuff.

...He doesn't have a brain, per se, so no "brainwaves" to futz with. I'm sorry if that's a tremendous shock to you, but there you go. And, again, there's no reason to believe Engineer can do that. She's never used her radiotelepathy nannites in an offensive manner before.

Thing is, I was under the impression that in the DCU all telepathy is based on brain structures and such. Aquaman can effect people because they inherited parts of their brains from their aquatic ancestors, Plastic Man can't be affected because he doesn't have an organic brain, etc. Although maybe it depends on the author.

Regarding it being kind of a stretch for LV to give her guys offensive telepathy, I agree, but you've got a guy who very few regs/meds can harm in a week when ubers weren't allowed. What's she supposed to do? (You might say, "Well, she's supposed to lose", but it seems a bit unfair if there really are hardly any regs/meds she could have chosen that could hurt your guy.)

 

[Khellendros]

Actually, now that I think about it, it might be that someone was complaining in the discussion thread about overuse of tech. So that could be what you're remembering. But suffice it to say, I don't think anyone's lost a match just for handing out basic tech like flight-rings, provided it's in character for their tech-guy to be making stuff for his teammates. I might object if there's so much tech that their powers become secondary (e.g., making someone an Iron Man suit), but not for the minor stuff.

Mmkay. I should try and get a consensus on this, because I slightly underused a good resource here operating under false assumptions.

Thing is, I was under the impression that in the DCU all telepathy is based on brain structures and such. Aquaman can effect people because they inherited parts of their brains from their aquatic ancestors, Plastic Man can't be affected because he doesn't have an organic brain, etc. Although maybe it depends on the author.

Well, he's pure energy, has no physical body, and yet a "true" telepath effected him just fine, so I don't know what to tell you about that.

Regarding it being kind of a stretch for LV to give her guys offensive telepathy, I agree, but you've got a guy who very few regs/meds can harm in a week when ubers weren't allowed. What's she supposed to do? (You might say, "Well, she's supposed to lose", but it seems a bit unfair if there really are hardly any regs/meds she could have chosen that could hurt your guy.)

Well, yeah, she's supposed to lose. That's the point, to pick the best team to take on the other person's. We just so happened to have a guy who would leave her team screwed over.

 

[Aristotle]

Whose team wouldn't be screwed over by an unhurtable med?

 

[LadyVader]

He doesn't HAVE "mental pathways". He's just energy with a forcefield that lets him interact with the physical world. There's no reason to believe she can have any effect on him like that. ESPECIALLY using someone else as a proxy.

he DID respond to a mental attack in Legion of Super-heroes One Million. He was attacked by some beastie or something and said, I quote,

"Oh the pain, the agony. How can this be? I have no body. Must be a mental attack."

Want me to provide you with a scan? And just because Engineer never used her radio telepathy for attack, doesn't mean she can't. In the situation is purely logical that she'd be willing to improvise. If we were going ONLY by what characters have been shown to do in comics, half the characters in this thing would become useless!

Maybe not.
Brilliant logic. Can't argue with that.

Except, again, she'd have to touch them. They know what she is and what she can do, and that will make them very wary of her getting close.
What can they really do to stop her from phasing through them?

Yeah, I know you SAID she gave them all image inducers and teleporters, but we've had Brainiac hand out teleporting belts and flight tech and even plain old breathers for underwater fighting and had people object to that. So, I'm hoping there won't be too much hypocrisy taking place here.

Depends on the situation. Engineer USED the tech at her disposal to respond to carry out a specific strategy, and since nobody complains to using the tech on a battleground, why would they complain to using the tech on a teammate? All she had to do was study the design, and multiply it. Doesn't seem like a big strech to me. Plus, she has the tools necessary to build those things. It's one thing to have the ability to build them, like Brainiac, but lack the tools and the materials to do so. Also...
- Teleporters were needed to get around easier in the Fortress. Should Engineer have gotten control of the computer, I wouldn't have outfited my characters with them, but in the context of this strategy (blowing up the system) it makes sense.
- Image inducers were only used twice, on characters likely to fall for it.

Also, well, ****, so she can manipulate gravity. Luckily, it would seem she has to touch someone to make them heavier She has to phase through them, there's a difference, so, again, on a team with a couple teleporters, that's not guaranteed to be a successful tactic. And her getting a hold on the three tiny little Mon Elves to do so is also pretty damned unlikely. She's a ninja, specialised in stealth, she even sneaked up on Superman, as in the guy with super senses


Okay, now just take it offffff and we can really get down to some "debating".
After I'm done kicking your ass.

.

 

[wiegeabo]

B'wana Bet?
Deadpool's Harem

Gog's lineup should be able to take care of Gluon's. Simple as that.

Both teams relied heavily on tech and intangibility. Even Khell admitted there'd be a sort of stalemate towards the end. Problem is, at that point, one of LV's characters disrupts tech. And that's what Khell said would win him the fight. But I don't think it will this time.

 

[XFanTim]

Whose team wouldn't be screwed over by an unhurtable med?

Exactly.

And I'm not saying I'd buy it if LadyVader made up something totally implausible. But something like "my character has radiotelepathy, let's modify that into an attack" isn't that implausible. Normally it'd be a bit speculative for my tastes, but against a guy where you basically need some kind of "pure" telepath (whatever that means) or I guess magic to hurt, I'm willing to give more leeway. Especially since there are basically no "pure" telepaths or mages worth a darn who aren't ubers, and ubers weren't allowed this week.

But I'll quit *****ing about Brainiac-417 in your battle thread. Maybe if I'm feeling more energetic later I'll post a nice rant about him over in the Rankings thread.

 

[LadyVader]

B'wanna Bet

 

[Dark Gog]

Hayden's Blog, Stardate 90210:

Honorable viewership, the Man-Essence strikes again! Been here twenty minutes when Ms Warbird had a team-up with my codpiece. Inez warned me about girls like her. I told her I was currently involved and gave number of good, clean, urologist, but she just said she liked it when it burned and walked out. I think she might be mad. Or shameful.

Being a ruined woman, Ms Marvel must have felt desperate, because she came-on pretty strongly to Deathstroke. She said she was a "here-and-now" kind of gal, but Killer Frost said that's a-bit too late for Deathsroke. I wonder what she meant?

Dear diary, what does it mean if you want to hurt yourself, but the guy you want to hurt isn't really who you wanna hurt, and the guy you really want to hurt isn't really you anymore? Conundrum! Deathstroke's real name is Slade Wilson. He's an alternate reality version of Deadpool. That means I should want to hurt him, but all I keep thinking is "he's not that bad, really". He says that happens all the time. Maybe that's progress.

Carol (that's what Warbird's called) says she knows how these things work. She says we just have to play along until we find a world we wanna take over. Deathstroke also big on ruling things, but I just want to get back home so I can shoot people with the people that I love. Whatever happened to the dream?

Bullseye also into shooting. Don't need guns though. Makes me shameful. And he likes to stab me. Taskmaster used to stab me, but only because he liked me felt bad about killing me. Except one time he did try, but he said he had a good reason, and I believe him.

P.S: North Pole very cold. Fortress very interesting. Dog not house-broken. Never had a dog before. Did have stuffed German.
Mental-note: Meet Superman. Ask for pony.


MEANWHILE, at the Hall of Justice


-'What does Gog say, Lightray?'

-'...

He says: "Kill Deathstroke 'till he's dead. Ha-ha-ha-ha, ha."

Gentlemen, I fear our fates may have been placed in what may not altogether be the right pair of hands after-all.'

 

[Khellendros]

Bet.

 

[Harlekin]

B'wanna Bet
Deadpool's Harem

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Exactly.

And I'm not saying I'd buy it if LadyVader made up something totally implausible. But something like "my character has radiotelepathy, let's modify that into an attack" isn't that implausible. Normally it'd be a bit speculative for my tastes, but against a guy where you basically need some kind of "pure" telepath (whatever that means) or I guess magic to hurt, I'm willing to give more leeway. Especially since there are basically no "pure" telepaths or mages worth a darn who aren't ubers, and ubers weren't allowed this week.

But I'll quit *****ing about Brainiac-417 in your battle thread. Maybe if I'm feeling more energetic later I'll post a nice rant about him over in the Rankings thread.

I must saying working it out to allow the other strategy to win because all there was no way for them to do so makes me think that the vote was for her even before the match up. This may seem to you as sour grapes but when you state that their strategy is more sound because we used scanners and such whereas they did not need to but yet them creating or more exactly using something a way they have never used before is more plausible seems quite a stretch in my book.

I don't really care that much at the end of the day as the votes seem to go against us but your reasoning leaves something to be desired in my book. And I do not mean for you to take this as some type of personal insult as you seem to be among the more intelligent posters on this website but saying that on the one hand our strategy does not work because we are relying too heavily on some tech and that on the other hand LV's does because it relies on radiotelepathy used in a way it never was seems a bit off.

 

[XFanTim]

You misunderstand me -- I'm not saying you relied too heavily on tech. I'm fine with the level of tech-use you had.

I'm saying you relied on the tech, and LadyVader showed a way her team could take away your tech. (Phasing it so your team can't touch it, etc.) So I voted for her (in part) because she showed me how her team could take away your team's tech advantage.

The telepathic attack against Brainiac was less of a factor in my vote, but since Khell brought it up as a point against LV I tried to explain why that wasn't enough to make me vote against her. If I was sure it wouldn't work, I might have voted against her -- but I think it might work (although it's not proven), and like I said I'm a little more lenient about people getting "creative" when they're up against someone like Brainiac-417 who kind of forces you into it (since there are so few meds/regs with a proven attack that could hurt him).

Anyway, even if the telepathy attack wouldn't work, if Byakko could strip Brainiac of his tech then he's just some disembodied energy-thingy who can't hurt her. Rather than call the battle a draw due to infinite stalemate, I chose to give it to LV. Like I said, my vote wasn't really based on that one questionable attack, I'm just saying the fact that that attack might not work wasn't enough to make me go against her.

 

[Aristotle]

Are there any regs or meds with a proven attack that could hurt Brainiac-417?

 

[Khellendros]

Are there any regs or meds with a proven attack that could hurt Brainiac-417?

Hurt? Yes, four. And at least one who could neutralize him. And, no, I won't list them for you. You'll just have to take a look at the Rosters with your Creative Hat on.

 

[XFanTim]

I've just posted some comments on Brainiac-417 in the rankings thread. Let's take further discussion there.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

You misunderstand me -- I'm not saying you relied too heavily on tech. I'm fine with the level of tech-use you had.

I'm saying you relied on the tech, and LadyVader showed a way her team could take away your tech. (Phasing it so your team can't touch it, etc.) So I voted for her (in part) because she showed me how her team could take away your team's tech advantage.

The telepathic attack against Brainiac was less of a factor in my vote, but since Khell brought it up as a point against LV I tried to explain why that wasn't enough to make me vote against her. If I was sure it wouldn't work, I might have voted against her -- but I think it might work (although it's not proven), and like I said I'm a little more lenient about people getting "creative" when they're up against someone like Brainiac-417 who kind of forces you into it (since there are so few meds/regs with a proven attack that could hurt him).

Anyway, even if the telepathy attack wouldn't work, if Byakko could strip Brainiac of his tech then he's just some disembodied energy-thingy who can't hurt her. Rather than call the battle a draw due to infinite stalemate, I chose to give it to LV. Like I said, my vote wasn't really based on that one questionable attack, I'm just saying the fact that that attack might not work wasn't enough to make me go against her.

Then I apologise because the reasoning mentionned above follows a certain logic even if I do not agree wholly with it but then again I am biased.

 

[DTL Commish]

Voting is over.
Final Results:

B'wana Bet? 7
Mistress Gluon 0

Deadpool's Harem 4
The Immortals 1