DTL Season 5-Week 9 (Set 3)

[Dark Gog]

One last, very final thing to consider is this: Would Lightray truly be corrupted instantly by the Gem? He is a New God, extremely resistent to manipulation by nature and quite possibly training and carrying a Mother Box, as well as of their strongest and and most noble by anyone's acount. And Reed worked with those things recently, hasn't he? (I'm actually under the impression that's the reason Warlock doesn't currently possess it.) He must have gotten around it somehow, or else be able to caution his team to dispose of it through some other means. (a Doom Tube comes to mind.)

 

[XFanTim]

Response to Gog's comments:

Just so you know, I wasn't trying to trick you with the Soulsword thing, under normal circumstances it can't be taken by someone else. If I had added "unless Magus steals Darkchylde's soul" it would have kind of spoiled that twist in my writeup.

Yes, there are some things Zemo could do to try to help disarm Magus, but I felt he'd be pretty throughly occupied just dealing with Loki.

Yes, Zemo would know Magus would carry the Soulsword. But warning Ares "Hey, watch out for the Soulsword!" isn't necessarily going to save him from it. I can't be expected to assume your guys will find a counter to all my strategies just because Zemo has some pre-cognition.

In fact, the way I wrote things, Zemo would foresee that this whole situation would lead to Ares defeat. But I had Zemo decide that losing Ares was an acceptable tradeoff if it gave him the opportunity to take down Loki and then Magus. He wants to win the fight -- he doesn't care if Ares is still standing at the end.

If Ares can't be worked to find the odds against Adam, than most likely that just means they swap opponents. Ares vs. Loki is the match-up I was most confident about to begin with. I only avoided it due to the same uncertainty you noted with having Zemo fighting the Magus. But come-down-to-it Helmut has more instant kills at his disposal Adam's one, and a lot more ways of manipulating the field to his advantage, or dividing his opponents.

Quoted this because I think its a key point of contention. Zemo isn't going to risk possible defeat against Magus just to avoid Ares being beaten. His goals would be for the team to win, and for himself to still be standing at the end of the fight. If that means telling Ares "I foresee you beating Magus" when in truth he doesn't, that's what he's going to do.

Regarding Reed coming up with some weapon that beats Magneto: I'm skeptical of Reed being able to whip up a Magneto depowering gun in 24 hours. How many years has he tried and failed to cure the Thing? How many foes have menaced the Fantastic Four again and again without Reed coming up with a tech-based solution to their threat? How many times has Magneto himself threatened New York without Reed whipping up some awesome Magneto-beating weapon.

And even if he could create such a weapon, there's plenty of ways Magneto could take it out -- smash it with a piece of metal, fry it with an EMP, etc.

Yes, Deadman has to find his targets. Are they just going to spend the whole fight hiding from him? If your regs attack my characters, Deadman will find them quickly enough. Anyway, in my writeup I had him claim the one who ended up losing the reg-vs.-reg fight, which I think is enough of a concession.

I did assume he'd use illusions, for which reason I had my team mind-linked with Ares.

Even if Ares can see through illusions, I don't see how just being mind-linked to him would let Magus see through them. I mean, wouldn't Ares have to be looking at the illusions? I had him a bit of a ways away duking it out with Magus.

Regarding superior knowledge of the battlefield: it's one thing to say you had it, but did your team really use the battlefield in your writeup? I don't think you've really demonstrated that the battlefield would make a critical difference. It's not like this is the Blue Area of the Moon with hidden Phoenix-killing weapons lying around. It's a city, whose main noteworthy feature is a bunch of toxic radiation that wouldn't really hurt anyone on my team. Not too much to figure out. Plus we get a day to scout the place.

As far as whether your team would have figured out that Magus would make it back from the future and find a way to counter that -- I can't be expected to assume your team will have an answer to everything my team could do. I tried to have Zemo's precog give your guys plenty of advantages, but I'm not just going to lay down and say "It's a guy who knows the future and bunch of geniuses, they'll have the perfect solution to anything!" They have to be beatable.

 

[XFanTim]

One last, very final thing to consider is this: Would Lightray truly be corrupted instantly by the Gem? He is a New God, extremely resistent to manipulation by nature and quite possibly training and carrying a Mother Box, as well as of their strongest and and most noble by anyone's acount. And Reed worked with those things recently, hasn't he? (I'm actually under the impression that's the reason Warlock doesn't currently possess it.) He must have gotten around it somehow, or else be able to caution his team to dispose of it through some other means. (a Doom Tube comes to mind.)

I'm pretty sure it's never been explained how Reed got the Soul Gem. Warlock had kind of disappeared from Marvel's titles for a few years . . . Wikipedia says he was last seen in some sort of intergalactic insane asylum, and I don't think that was explained either.

Anyway, all I know is its been stated that basically every one of the Soul Gem's hosts before Warlock was totally under the Gem's control. And when a comatose Warlock stranded in another dimension was found by Darklore (a mage who was at least implied to be Sorceror Supreme of that dimension) the Gem tried to claim him as its host and overpowered him within seconds -- before Warlock revived and took it back.

Anyway, even if your team does get the Gem away, it's not such a crucial thing, since neither of us really had him using the Gem against Ares. I don't think Lightray could snatch away the Soulsword, since it would be intangible to him.

 

[Aristotle]

I think people are misunderstanding the point of Turtles power...he froze a city.Whether Flash is stood next to him or other end of Bludhaven, Turtles ability will stop him. He is a black hole for speed.

You said his passive ability was not that high-level. If it is, he's uber. You said his passive speedkill was much shorter range, so I wrote from the standpoint that if the Flash can avoid his notice, he won't be slowed down by Turtle's active abilities.

Flash cant avoid what he cant see.

And when did Flash go blind?

They hit the wall of speed stealing there is no momentum to keep pushing them on therefore they stop.

Again, you are writing a much different Turtle from the one you described to me before the battle.

 

[Nightwing]

I gave a brief description of Turtle then someone else added the true range of his ability.I assumed you were aware that this was the Turtle seen as ive picked him up at his 'black hole' level.Which Wieg ok'd as a med.

Also Flash doesnt have to be blind.The speed stealing ability cant be seen.It just happens.Therefore he cant avoid what he cant see.

 

[AnnoyingSilence]

Dozens

and....

you know... giving that BOTH owners are active and should get thier fair shares(merit for being active and being a KNOWN acitve), i'm goin with....

HOTNA.-.-.-.-.-.... The way i see it is, the turtle can definitely slow the flash down to where his super punch is useless and he can't phase... aztek demolishes the regs, Infinity-Man's anti gravity is useless against juggies magic powers and aztek is dust against HOTNA's ubs

 

[XFanTim]

Since some people still haven't voted, I thought I'd mention one more point that just occured to me about Gog's writeup:

Magus plunges a phased hand into his chest, and at great personal pain materializes it. As Ares' arms wrap around his own, he realizes too late to war god is determined on taking him with him. As the Magus is drawn towards him, Ares' final action is to plunge a summoned knife through Adam's heart.

Why wouldn't Magus just switch back to intangible the moment he realized what Ares was doing? I don't see how Ares would have time to grab hold of him, summon a knife, and then stab him before he just re-phases himself. And Magus isn't about to sacrifice himself just to take Ares down with him.

 

[wiegeabo]

The Deadly Dozen
The Authorititans


Two close matches.

I do think Turtle could have been a bigger threat, but was still somewhat more convinced by Ari.

Similarly, Tim convinced me a little more.

 

[LadyVader]

XfanTim and
Aristotel

Just didn't buy Nightwing's reasoning this week. Sorry, I know you had some difficulties.

 

[Dark Gog]

I'm not expecting you to concede points you don't agree with or write my team as some unstoppable force, but if there are elements in your scenario that they could counter differently or points I feel the need the stress, than of-course I'm going to raise them. And if your strategy revolves around Team B'wana sending a character that can't time travel to the future thinking it will be the end of it, and Ares has already gone through a very similar situation himself before finding his way back, then naturally I'll mention it.

Now, all this conjencture around Reed and Magneto misses the mark, I think. The facts are: 1) Reed has already beaten Magneto using a device that turned his own power on him, which makes it rather unlikely Erik's gonna take it apart using EMPs or his control of metals, and 2) Nowhere in my write-up did I actually rely on 1).

I don't doubt that at one point in time the Soul Gem worked exactly as you describe it, but it does seem that there's a fair bit of more recent precedent establishing others can possess it for a time. (And it is important, since you had Magus rely on it to wield the Soulsword.)

In fact, the way I wrote things, Zemo would foresee that this whole situation would lead to Ares defeat. But I had Zemo decide that losing Ares was an acceptable tradeoff if it gave him the opportunity to take down Loki and then Magus. He wants to win the fight -- he doesn't care if Ares is still standing at the end.

Except that by my own version of the fight, Zemo would allow Ares a direct look into the Moonstones in-order to minimize the chance of stepping into one of Loki's traps, and Zemo is perfectly ready to die for his cause if need be. He approached his fight with The Grandmaster faced with the certainty this would happen. (Brought about by the betrayel of a team-mate he could actually name.)

Even if Ares can see through illusions, I don't see how just being mind-linked to him would let Magus see through them. I mean, wouldn't Ares have to be looking at the illusions?

Well, no, probably not. We get some insight into the way Ares' mind works in at-least two scenes I scanned for his respect thread, and both suggest he has a rather panoramic view of events across the globe. Lightray is extremely useful in this capacity himself, and does not rely on sight at all for it.

Regarding superior knowledge of the battlefield:

My arguments didn't center around physical knowledge of the battlefield so much as on a greater level of familiarity with opponents, and insight into the future shape the battle will take. That, I feel, is the salient point here: By your own scenario, this match seems to revolve largely around the choice of match-ups, a choice my team seems both better educated and equipped to make.

Even your own write-up had my team losing through a miscalculation on Zemo's part rather than any intentional deception by The Dirty Dozen.

I don't think Lightray could snatch away the Soulsword, since it would be intangible to him.

Would it be, though? He's as much a god as Ares and Loki are, after-all.


Of-course, this all seems academic at this point.

 

[Harlekin]

Authorititans and Deadly Dozen

 

[Nightwing]

Deadly Dozen vs B'wana Bet?

 

[Dark Gog]

I'll be honest and say I thought there was a lot in both Aristotle's and Nightwing's write-ups that was disagreeable. However, Ari's seriously underwirtten some of his opposing team's abilities, and had other members of it (possibly) acting extremely unprofessionally (and even refer to the thing as a simple contest.)

My vote goes to Heroes of the New Age, than.

 

[Aristotle]

Just for the record: these aren't professionals. They're superheroes.

 

[XFanTim]

I guess most of the votes are already in, but I don't want to completely ignore Gog's most recent round of comments:

- Has Reed beaten Magneto with a weapon before? You made some reference that I took as "you think this might have happened" but you didn't supply any details. When did it happen? What did the weapon do? Was it a gun he had to shoot Magneto with, or what? You might be right that it happened, but without knowing any details I can't really respond.

- Regarding the Soul Gem being possessed by others, I don't think that the fact that the Illuminati somehow got it by -- I think -- unrevealed means really trumps the fact that when Warlock had it it was portrayed as something that only he and a few other very powerful people like Thanos could hope to control. To give an additional example, Warlock got the Gem from the High Evolutionary, who I'm pretty sure always kept it safely locked away to avoid having it take over his mind. And he's pretty high up the power scale.

-Regarding whether Lightray could take the Soul Sword, whether he's magical only matters for whether the blade can hurt him. As I understand it at this point in the sword's history the only people who can pick it up and carry or use it are Magik/Darkchylde and Shadowcat due to her spiritual connection to Magik (although I think I've justified that Magus could form his own such spiritual link). When the demon Sym infected Limbo with a technorganic virus, mucking up Magik's control of her powers, then he could hold it, and when she lost her powers at the end of Inferno then anyone could hold it. But none of this applies to Lightray.

(I probably shouldn't have said it was intangible to him, though -- I tend to think of New Gods as super high-tech guys rather than true magical beings like Ares or Thor, and that's probably a mistake on my part. But if Lightray is magic, that only proves the blade of the sword would hurt him if it touches him, not that he can actually hold the sword.)

-Regarding the choice of matchups, I actually felt I was having your team make the smarter choice in deciding to have Ares face Magus, because Ares would be somewhat resistant to the Soul Gem and Zemo wouldn't be. But the way I wrote it, either way there was a decent chance that whoever fought Magus first would go down. (Zemo may be willing to "sacrifice himself for the cause" if necessary, but given a choice between sacrificing himself or Ares I think he'd rather sacrifice Ares. He's not a saint.)

I don't think I'm unreasonable in not having Zemo find a perfect scenario that results in neither of your team's ubers getting beaten. If his future vision lets him always find a way to beat both the opposing ubers, it's too good a power. So I think having him find a way where he thought the team would win with the loss of an uber was a reasonable way to go.

- As far as whether your team should have realized Magus might make it back from the future and thus pursued a different tactic, I got the idea from the fact that you teleported Superman 1-Million through time in last week's writeup -- so it's clearly not a tactic your team always shies away from.

 

[DTL Commish]

Voting is over.
Final Results:

The Deadly Dozen 7
B'wana Bet? 0

Heroes of the New Age 2
The Authorititans 5

 

[Nightwing]

Wow that was a complete blow out.

Glad I only spent an hour on it. But cheers for those who voted and yes I was hindered somewhat by my lack of a computer.

 

[wiegeabo]

I just want Wing and Gog to know that while it may have looked like blow outs, it wasn't. At least for me. Both were matches that could have favored from the old ranking system of votes because they were really close.