Excellent New 2 player Co-op games?

Say's Master Chief.




That would probably be more relevant a statement if it was attempting to be an open world game in the first place.

LOL, what a jab. :o

Left4Dead just isn't for me.

Graphically, meh. Gameplay, meh.

The selection of weapons sucks and the hordes of zombies are boring. It feels like a bare bones game to me and everything people love in it I don't. When I play games it's a b**ch when I can't enjoy them, and that's all I can say. If you're trying to argue that all games are as bare as this one is, you're just being blind. I can play Saint's Row 2 for hours because I'm having fun, whereas running around the maps being attacked by these waves of running snarling NPCs in Left4Dead just gives me a headache.
 
Left4Dead just isn't for me.

Opinion's are fun.
Can't really argue either way when it's not fact but subjective.
You don't like it, fair enough.

Graphically, meh



Looks alright on this end.

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Animations man!

It looks like they're gliding.
 
If I can't see it, it's not there. :heart:
 
L4D looks phenomenal for being built on a 4-year-old engine.
It is not the phoenomenally revolutionary game of the year like a lot of people made it out to be. Deffininetly not worth 60 dollars:o
 
Can you elaborate on how that make it shallow in comparison to other first person shooters? Or other games nature in general?

Grand Theft auto 4, running basic check points from A to B, shooting people in the face repeatedly for X hours. Resident Evil, travel from area A to Area B repeatedly shooting zombies for X hours. Gears Of War, repeatedly killing X monsters, rudimentary boss battles, linear, linear rail shooter repeated for X hours. Call Of Duty 4, Repeatedly shooting terrorist over and over again over linear maps for X hours. Metal Gear Solid 4, repeatedly making your way from point A to point B with rudimentary boss battles for X hours. Halflife, linear, rudimentary puzzles, make your way from point A to point B repeatedly killing monsters for X hours.

You can deduce almost any game down to that level.
Except that every game you mentioned has a story, depth, and characterization to help bring you into that world. L4D has the same 5 levels in 4 different campaigns that last less than 4 hours TOTAL. To add to that, L4D has no boss battles unless you count the same special zombies that you see over and over in every campaign like the Witch and the Tank.

L4D is a bare bones game that was made solely for online experience. For that it is a good multiplayer game and nothing else. It is not worth 60 dollars.
 
It is not the phoenomenally revolutionary game of the year like a lot of people made it out to be.

It actually has several innovations in it that will probably be copyed in the future.


L4D has the same 5 levels

It's 20.


characterization to help bring you into that world.


Something like, for example, 1000 recorded lines of dialogue when sporically or when triggered reacts with certain dialogue lines for specific players characters conversing with other specific only player character? That, along with being being dictated by the players charecters state and the events happending outside of the player?

Now that I think about it, I really can't think of a multiplayer game or indeed a game in general that has done that before. I think that could well be innovation.



4 hours TOTAL

Personaly, I got more out of the demo than I did with several full retail games, such as Call Of Duty 4 for example, wich was only about 7 hours to shoot through and a fairly Nick Jr counterstrike tacked on wich didn't hold much water, same with Dead Space, that game lasted about 9-10.



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16 hours on the demo with 4 of the 20 levels. 1/2 of 4 campaigns.
That's not including the 60+ hours of the full game played.
That time played isn't just restricted to myself,or large in comparison to other peoples.


Except that every game you mentioned has a story

Not in multiplayer, which is how you describe this game as and to wich I agree.


Coupled with this, if you own the game (all 5 levels) checking the developer commentary reveals the game originally had cutscenes and more narrative, it is was taken out as a design decision, as, the game will be played repeatedly over and over, ultimately irrating the player, moot point.


Not really.


L4D has no boss battles unless you count the same special zombies that you see over and over in every campaign like the Witch and the Tank.

There was, they were taken out or replaced as a design decision.


http://www.steamfriends.com/news/3339/left-4-dead-screamer-found-game-commentary

If to you, more automatically equals better, fine, personally, I'll take good design.


L4D is a bare bones game

It's purposfully trimmed.

It is not worth 60 dollars.

That's subjective.
 
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I feel like you and I had this argument not to long ago about the meaning of levels. Either way chaseter said -
"L4D has the same 5 levels in 4 different campaigns that last less than 4 hours TOTAL."
5 x 4 = 20 :cwink:
 
I feel like you and I had this argument not to long ago about the meaning of levels. Either way chaseter said -
"L4D has the same 5 levels in 4 different campaigns that last less than 4 hours TOTAL."
5 x 4 = 20 :cwink:


We did, it's probably why I misread it.
 
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It actually has several innovations in it that will probably be copyed in the future.
Most games that come out today and enjoy success have innovations. One innovation in enemy spawn points does not make up for its other negatives.

4 campaigns that have 5 missions with the exact same objective and the exact same zombies and the exact same gameplay:o You keep saying 20 yet they are not connected what-so-ever. What you do in one campaign has nothing to do in the others.


Something like, for example, 1000 recorded lines of dialogue when sporically or when triggered reacts with certain dialogue lines for specific players characters conversing with other specific only player character? That, along with being being dictated by the players charecters state and the events happending outside of the player?

Now that I think about it, I really can't think of a multiplayer game or indeed a game in general that has done that before. I think that could well be innovation.
A multiplayer game that is only a multiplayer game does not deserve to be a game of the year when other games with a great campaign and a great multiplayer side exist for the exact same price. L4D's campaign is its multiplayer...that is lazy.


Personaly, I got more out of the demo than I did with several full retail games, such as Call Of Duty 4 for example, wich was only about 7 hours to shoot through and a fairly Nick Jr counterstrike tacked on wich didn't hold much water, same with Dead Space, that game lasted about 9-10.
Personally I got more out of CoD4 than I did out of L4D...doesn't make your point valid. There are two types of critically acclaimed games that have a massive following and are remembered as classics: Games with a great, revolutionary, immersed campaign and games with a good campaign that have an even greater multiplayer experience. Bioshock, Dead Space, Mass Effect are games of the prior while games like Halo 2, CoD4, Super Smash Bros. are games of the latter. L4D is just a multiplayer component with 5 weapons, linear maps, and only one objective. It pales in comparison to other multiplayer games and it doesn't even have a credible campaign so there isn't even room to compare this to Bioshock and the others I listed:o


16 hours on the demo with 4 of the 20 levels. 1/2 of 4 campaigns.
That's not including the 60+ hours of the full game played.
That time played isn't just restricted to myself,or large in comparison to other peoples.
If it took you 16 hours to complete this game then you sir suck at games:o

Not in multiplayer, which is how you describe this game as and to wich I agree.
If this is only a multiplayer game as you just said...why is it worth 60 bucks? I was talking about comparable games that you mentioned that have great multiplayer and a great campaign...a great campaign is what this game lacks.


Coupled with this, if you own the game (all 5 levels) checking the developer commentary reveals the game originally had cutscenes and more narrative, it is was taken out as a design decision, as, the game will be played repeatedly over and over, ultimately irrating the player, moot point.
Which is why this game gets old, repetitive, and has no depth what so ever.


It's purposfully trimmed.
If this game came out and called you a loser...you somehow would find a way to defend it:o This game is alright...it has some elements that with more could have made a great game. It falls short...the end.



That's subjective.
Everything is subjective:o
 
Personally I got more out of CoD4 than I did out of L4D...doesn't make your point valid. There are two types of critically acclaimed games that have a massive following and are remembered as classics: Games with a great, revolutionary, immersed campaign and games with a good campaign that have an even greater multiplayer experience. Bioshock, Dead Space, Mass Effect are games of the prior while games like Halo 2, CoD4, Super Smash Bros. are games of the latter. L4D is just a multiplayer component with 5 weapons, linear maps, and only one objective. It pales in comparison to other multiplayer games and it doesn't even have a credible campaign so there isn't even room to compare this to Bioshock and the others I listed:o

Even without a "great, revolutionary, immersed campaign" Left 4 Dead still managed to be a critical and fan success. I think your point is moot.
 
A multiplayer game that is only a multiplayer game does not deserve to be a game of the year when other games with a great campaign and a great multiplayer


If the multiplayer only game in question was an overall better quality game, then that would be... illogical.
Unless it were a quantity over quality point of view.

L4D's campaign is its multiplayer...that is lazy.

No it isn't.


Personally I got more out of CoD4 than I did out of L4D...doesn't make your point valid.

The factual based point that I got more out of the demo alone than full retail games with multiplayer?

If this is the case, The argument regarding game value, price, single player and multiplayer doesn't really make a valid point either, as it's personal and thus: moot.





Games with a great, revolutionary, immersed campaign and games with a good campaign that have an even greater multiplayer experience. Bioshock

Again, you are trying to argue your opinion as fact.
Along with an extremely misinformed lecture along the way.

A watered down version of a decade old game is revolutionary to you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Shock_2



Dead Space

Elaborate. Other than elements taken from Resident Evil 4 and System Shock 2, there doesn't seem to be anything revolutionary.


Mass Effect

Great game, but beyond fighting system, it's basically the same formula as previous Bioware games all the way back to 1998, more than a decade, including romance/sex with NPC's. It's not really revolutionary.




This game hasn't really got anything new, barring probably the safety net " shield regen" in fact it's probably held fps back as many tryed to emulate it's success than surpass the gameplay itself.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_Of_Duty

The gameplay is the almost the exact same as 2003's.
Apply skins, copy Counterstrike formula, wala, 10 million sold.
Again, not revolutionary, it's actually antiquated.



If it took you 16 hours to complete this game then you sir suck at games

Eh?


Which is why this game gets old, repetitive, and has no depth what so ever.

These 60 hours aren't really getting old.
The change of stellar fps gameplay from twich shoot, to... twich shoot doesn't seem to stop the game from remaining consistently fun.


This game is alright...it has some elements that with more could have made a great game. It falls short...the end.

Again, you seem to be arguing opinion as fact.
 
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Even without a "great, revolutionary, immersed campaign" Left 4 Dead still managed to be a critical and fan success. I think your point is moot.
Look at the name of this thread. It is MY OPINION that L4D is not an excellet new Co-op game and I gave my reasons. If you want to discuss this then state your positions and your points...otherwise you saying my point is moot is well...pointless. Many games have managed to become criticial and fan successes but that doesn't mean you or me should go out and buy it. Madden 09 was a critical success but I don't play sports games so should I go out and spend 60 bucks?
 
If the multiplayer only game in question was an overall better quality game, then that would be... illogical.
Unless it were a quantity over quality point of view.
What is the point of L4D's single player campaign? Why do they even have that as an option when the multiplayer is the EXACT SAME THING:huh: As I was saying, a good multiplayer only game like this should be priced less because that is all it is when in comparison you can spend the exact same amount of money to buy a game with a good campaign and a good multiplayer as well.

No it isn't.
Yes it is:huh: It is the exact same everything. The only difference is people playing against you. The single objective(get to the safe house), the gameplay(stick together), and the game mechanics are exactly the same.


The factual based point that I got more out of the demo alone than full retail games with multiplayer?
How is your point factual when it is your opinion:huh: You got more out of the demo than other games makes that statement a fact??? Okay.

If this is the case, The argument regarding game value, price, single player and multiplayer doesn't really make a valid point either, as it's personal and thus: moot.
Yes...so Team Fortress should be 60 dollars. Why is Valve not doing this!


Again, you are trying to argue your opinion as fact.
Along with an extremely misinformed lecture along the way.
WTF are you doing:huh: Stating your opinions as fact first off and defending your point as if statistics that don't exist back you up. I will throw out a statistic...Halo 3 and CoD4 remain Xbox Live's biggest multiplayer numbers one and even 2 years after their initial release. If L4D is such an awesome multiplayer experience with innovative everything that has met critical and commercial success...why does it not surpass either of those?


A watered down version of a decade old game is revolutionary to you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Shock_2
Zombie shooters are new to this planet? Where have I been:wow:


Great game, but beyond fighting system, it's basically the same formula as previous Bioware games all the way back to 1998, more than a decade, including romance/sex with NPC's. It's not really revolutionary.
You yourself said that you could deduce any game down to a certain level and compare them to each other. Hypocrite:o



This game hasn't really got anything new, barring probably the safety net " shield regen" in fact it's probably held fps back as many tryed to emulate it's success than surpass the gameplay itself.
L4D hasn't really got anything new, barring probably the "enemy spawn points"....


These 60 hours aren't really getting old.
The change of stellar fps gameplay from twich shoot, to... twich shoot doesn't seem to stop the game from remaining consistently fun.
If you get 60 hours out of single player gameplay from this game then once again I say you must suck at playing games.

Again, you seem to be arguing opinion as fact.

See above
 
Despite saying I wouldn't, I bought this game for $60 in a moment of World War Z inspired weakness. And I'm conflicted. I agree with both you.

After I played the demo I stated that I didn't think this game was worth full price. After having played through each campaign multiple times now, I retain the same view. It is a very bare bones game in terms of content and features with mostly antiquated gameplay. I feel like Valve (who I love) are getting a free pass just because they are Valve and apparantly can do no wrong. If any other developer released this exact game it probably wouldn't be getting anywhere near the ammount of praise that it has. A game with no plot whatsoever? A game that only consists of four, hour long (usually less) campaigns? A game that only has one game mode? Please. Not only would the game recieve less praise if it were made by a studio other than Valve, it would probably be outright panned.

The AI Director does a pretty good job with the infected, but a poor job with item placement. (I am correct in assuming the AI decides where to place items, right?) It's like...I know a pipe bomb or some pills are going to be at location X, Y, or Z. And it can be pretty annoying at times travelling to three or more different locations just because I know an item is going to be at one of them. It's like that game where someone shuffles three cups around on a table and you have to guess which one has something inside.

On the other hand...

The game is designed well. Really well. While the features and content are very, very sparse in this game, everything that is included serves a wholly unique purpose. Every item and every weapon you come across in the various environments has great value to the player and plays a vital role to your survival. Absolutely nothing is wasted in Left 4 Dead. Everything just kind of goes together like clockwork.

This post probably makes me sound like a hypocrite. Saying so many bad things after recommending the game unquestionably earlier in the thread. I still stand by the recommendation, but the buyer should try and get it dirt cheap if possible.

I guess for me it comes down to two things...

1. The price. It isn't worth sixty dollars. I don't care what anyone says or how many hours someone has played it. Nobody will convince me otherwise.

2. My overwhelming desire for MORE! Like I said, what is in the game is good. I've enjoyed it. I just wish there was more to it. Like maybe a real single player mode with plot and cutscenes and all that jazz. Or maybe if there were six or eight campaigns instead of just 4. Or maybe if each campaign had more levels.

It's a good game, I just wish the price matched the content. And I really wish the gaming community at large would stop blindly ******ing Valve. (As much as I love them.:O)
 
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I agree with you. I hear of some DLC coming soon that will give more weapons, some story, and an actual boss infected. I would recommend this game if it were 40 bucks and when it gets that point I just may purchase it although right now I remain with it being an excellent renter but not a purchase.

If Valve does L4D2 then I would have high hopes and expectations for it being a great game. But yes...Valve has a good history and it seems that people have given them too much credit for this but oh well.
 
Yeah. I don't think anyone here is arguing that L4D is not a good game. It's made well, it's fun. It is just overpriced for the sparse features it has now. I do hope valve can add a lot of content and make me feel like it would be worth buying it, but right now it is just too bare bones to spend 60 bucks on.

I enjoyed the demo, for what it was, and a badass fps zombie game is right up my ally. But I need a decent length single player experience in addition to multiplayer, I am a single player gamer first and foremost and only recently got back into playing some things online, and like chaseter said, L4D's single player is just the multiplayer with bots.

It's a great concept and fun to play, but it feels like, to me, that valve just said "Here you go, we'll finish it later."
 
What is the point of L4D's single player campaign?

Survive or troll.

Why do they even have that as an option when the multiplayer is the EXACT SAME THING

Cooperatively with friends in one sitting, all 4 campaigns which are designed to be played repeteadly, would take, as you say 4 hours, If this was a compulsory run of every single map each playthrough, it would be too time consuming, demanding too much for a "well done" pat on the back. It's a design decision.

How is your point factual

"factual based"

The original dispute itself was money's worth, which is the point you still seem to be arguing, it is 4 hours, it's also a game designed to be played repeatedly, on the demo alone, if you I am getting 16 hours out of it, 60 hours out of the full game, that's testament to the Ai director and how well the replaybility and general design overall works. as opposed to giving you "IMO" you were giving personal fact based experience. There was no claims that it would be the same for everyone else.


I will throw out a statistic...Halo 3 and CoD4 remain Xbox Live's biggest multiplayer numbers one and even 2 years after their initial release. If L4D is such an awesome multiplayer experience with innovative everything that has met critical and commercial success...why does it not surpass either of those?

To answer that wouldn't really be very simple unless you are equating innovation to popularity, wich is a flawed argument to make in general, system shock 2 was a wholly innovative game, more so than either of those titlles ever were, it sold a pittance, not even 1/20th.

That coupled with PR machines, new IP launch wich can go either way, media coverage, console launch, and a whole host of other niggles.

Other accountable factors such as, the pc, which valve games sell better on. Establishment, to which on the console market Activision and Bungie have a more established base, for example, steam has 16 million users, with left4dead on average being the second the third top played multiplayer game just behind counterstrike, call of duty 4 along with call of duty world of war are there, however, they do not surpass it and such are played by far less people.


Zombie shooters are new to this planet?

Cooperative, AI director driven zombie first person shooter are new to the planet, correct.

You yourself said that you could deduce any game down to a certain level

The previous being simplicity and the latter innovation, there's a difference.
It seems to me you were introduced to what previously existed beforehand and took it as new.

L4D hasn't really got anything new, barring probably the "enemy spawn points"....

That coupled with the music director, visual cue's and audio interaction, I agree.

Yes...so Team Fortress should be 60 dollars. Why is Valve not doing this!

If Team Fortress 2 shipped with 20+ maps along with bot support, it would be worth it, imo.

Besides, it doesn't really negate the point....

If you get 60 hours out of single player gameplay from this game then once again I say you must suck at playing games.

I don't recall mentioning single player?
Expand upon how playing a game more means

" you must suck at playing games."

Currently,even as an insult, That doesn't seem to make sence..
 
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I thought there didnt need to be a "plot" in L4D. I mean you are just 4 random ppl thrown into a crazy situation and trying to surrvive. They dont know whats going on and neither should the player. Its like being in a zombie movie.
 
I think L4D has a coherent narrative, just not a really in-depth story. The format doesn't allow for an in-depth story. Rather, it takes a situation we're all already familiar with--survivors making their way to safety through zombie-infested locations--and plays to the strengths of that archetype. Even without much dialogue or narration or any cutscenes, though, I still get a sense of who the characters are because they are built on familiar archetypes as well, as are most video game characters. It's just that instead of the grizzled space marine or mercenary or soldier with a specific story that unfolds over the course of the game, you've got a grizzled old war vet, a tough biker-dude, an ordinary office guy, and a young student going through the plot of every single zombie movie ever made. Which is fine. It was pretty clear from the start that L4D wouldn't be too story-heavy given its very nature, so I don't get how a lack of a deep story could be a negative when there weren't any expectations for it in the first place.
 
Bought L4D last weekend and have been having a blast playing it w/ my brother. It's no Final Fantasy in terms of depth but it's still mad fun. Not worth the $60 I paid(chase is right about that) but hopefully the DLC will change that.
 

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