Female circumcision a problem in the UK

[jaguarr]

Like jaguarr says, "There is no better, only different. ...............-jag"

There's truth in that, though. Yes, this practice is barbaric and probably ultimately unnecessary, but our culture does the same damn thing to little boys so who are we to judge? Every culture has aspects to them that are disturbing and ultimately wrong from a humanist perspective. None can claim superiority over any other because of that.

jag

 

[moraldeficiency]

Great example of such a thing as an inferior and "wrong" culture.

The way they discovered the human form of Mad Cow disease.

There was this African tribe and it was being decimated.
I saw the film footage, most of the children had a severe palsy.
They couldn't walk or even stand. They were twitching.
It would get worse and worse until they died, prematurely.

Well, it was because, in this "culture", you're supposed to eat the remains of your dead loved ones, to ensure that you assimilate their strengths and "powers".
So the whole family would share, and the kids would get left having to eat the brains, spreading the disease.

Bad, bad cultural practice.
Not "different".
Wrong/Stupid/Ignorant/Deadly

I was trying to remember the name of that tribe, they're featured in "Guns, Germs and Steel" which is about how cultures and people aren't really different just victims of geography and movements in society. Great book.

 

[jaguarr]

Great example of such a thing as an inferior and "wrong" culture.

The way they discovered the human form of Mad Cow disease.

There was this African tribe and it was being decimated.
I saw the film footage, most of the children had a severe palsy.
They couldn't walk or even stand. They were twitching.
It would get worse and worse until they died, prematurely.

Well, it was because, in this "culture", you're supposed to eat the remains of your dead loved ones, to ensure that you assimilate their strengths and "powers".
So the whole family would share, and the kids would get left having to eat the brains, spreading the disease.

Bad, bad cultural practice.
Not "different".
Wrong/Stupid/Ignorant/Deadly

And in our culture, we feed our kids tons upon tons of chemical preservatives and sugar which causes all kinds of behavior disorders and health problems for them. And, we have a lot of mothers using drugs while pregnant and during breast-feeding, creating a whole generation of mentally deficient, emotionally crippled children. Every culture finds ways to f**k up their kids by doing something horrid to them unintentionally as part of their normal cultural day-to-day. And, yes, it's Wrong/Stupid/Ignorant/Deadly....but there's not a society in the world that doesn't do it to one extent or another.

jag

 

[Carcharodon]

There's truth in that, though. Yes, this practice is barbaric and probably ultimately unnecessary, but our culture does the same damn thing to little boys so who are we to judge? Every culture has aspects to them that are disturbing and ultimately wrong from a humanist perspective. None can claim superiority over any other because of that.

jag

I agree to an extent, but there's a huge difference between male circumcision and female circumcision.

 

[jaguarr]

I agree to an extent, but there's a huge difference between male circumcision and female circumcision.

It's still mutilation of the natural body. It's still done at an age where the child can't consent. I don't see a difference, really.

jag

 

[Carcharodon]

It's still mutilation of the natural body. It's still done at an age where the child can't consent. I don't see a difference, really.

jag

Nerve damage. There's your goddamned difference. You're ruining sex for these women potentially for the rest of their goddamned natural lives.

What did I get? A bigger-looking, functional penis.

When you grow a clit let me know. I'll happily mutilate it for you.

 

[jaguarr]

Nerve damage. There's your goddamned difference. You're ruining sex for these women potentially for the rest of their goddamned natural lives.

What did I get? A bigger-looking, functional penis.

When you grow a clit let me know. I'll happily mutilate it for you.

So you're arguing that males suffer absolutely no nerve damage from circumcision? Hmmm.... Don't get me wrong, I agree, it's wrong to do it to females. It's wrong to do it to males as well, really, if you want to really get right down to it. It should be by consent only, and without a double standard. The only real difference I'm seeing ethically is that it's illegal to do this to females in the UK and legal do do it to males. But, yet again you have a double-standard. To sit there and argue that it's okay to do it to males but not to females is asinine. It's either wrong to do this to unconsenting children or it's not.

And no need for the animosity, either. Settle down.

jag

 

[moraldeficiency]

There's truth in that, though. Yes, this practice is barbaric and probably ultimately unnecessary, but our culture does the same damn thing to little boys so who are we to judge? Every culture has aspects to them that are disturbing and ultimately wrong from a humanist perspective. None can claim superiority over any other because of that.

jag

I have to disagree. The practice isn't probably ultimately unnecessary. It is unnecessary and in fact extremely dangerous that lead to long term health problems. If you count the lack of pleasure in sex to be a benefit than that is the only one you could possibly extrapolate from this. I'm not saying this is some moralistic game but some cultures are just @ucked up worse than others.


Examples: The Nazi's were @ucked up worse than other cultures around them

The Russians during Stalin's reign were worse than other cultures around them

What's going on in the Sudan right now is @ucked up but because everyone want's to respect a culture mass genocide gets to happen. (hey it's not worse it's just different)

Slavery is @ucked up.

Female Castration is @ucked up.

Now there's plenty wrong in any county in the world and plenty of stupid cultural problems but can you really say it all evens out?

You're basically saying unless a society is perfect (which is impossible) then they have no right to interfere in anothers?

The male castration point has been answered several times and I've yet to hear anyone respond to those points. The points again: Hygine improves with one/vast health risks apply with the other, diminishing of sexual sensation isn't the same as destroying it, most people actually approve and are glad it was done. Cutting out the clitoris would be like cutting the head of your penis and making sure all sex for the rest of your life is painful (they're nothing alike)

I generally agree with you and if we're talking not mutaliating religious practices or cultural customs that won't end up maiming children then I agree with you, but sometimes somethings are just wrong no matter who you are or where you're from. Minor problems I can live with, but doing this to women just so some scared little men can feel better about their tiny @icks isn't one of them. Check out "infidel" at the book store and read a couple passages, and see if you still feel that way.

 

[Leto Atrides]

It's still mutilation of the natural body. It's still done at an age where the child can't consent. I don't see a difference, really.

jag

Male circumcision has a very minor effect on the person compared to female. For the equivalent to happen to a male, they would have to cut off his foreskin, cut the head off his penis, and sew his penis down to his leg so he can't use it until someone cut it free for him. It's MUCH worse, and it's not surprising at all to see people take a middle ground.

There are some people in countries in Africa and the Middle East where this occurs that are trying to only allow the most minor form, cutting off the clitoral hood. This is an iffy option, and comparable to male circumcision, but full-on traditional female circumcision is a ****ing horror show compared to pretty much any other tribal practice, let alone anything we do in the west.

 

[Carcharodon]

So you're arguing that males suffer absolutely no nerve damage from circumcision? Hmmm.... Don't get me wrong, I agree, it's wrong to do it to females. It's wrong to do it to males as well, really, if you want to really get right down to it. It should be by consent only, and without a double standard. The only real difference I'm seeing ethically is that it's illegal to do this to females in the UK and legal do do it to males. But, yet again you have a double-standard. To sit there and argue that it's okay to do it to males but not to females is asinine. It's either wrong to do this to unconsenting children or it's not.

And no need for the animosity, either. Settle down.

jag

You're comparing apples and oranges. The entire point of female circumcision is to hinder sexual desire and pleasure, whereas that simply is not the case with male circumcision. I see your point about the double-standard, but this is a case in which I'm happy there's a double-standard. My dick is fine.

Besides, I'm glad I had it done without my consent. I'd probably never consent to it today, and now I don't have all that smegma to clean out of there. Hygeine FTW!

 

[jaguarr]

So you're all okay with doing this to nonconsenting male babies but not to nonconsenting female babies. Gotcha. And I'll state again for the record, I'm not in favor of either. And I was circumcised as a baby, btw.

jag

 

[Carcharodon]

So you're all okay with doing this to nonconsenting male babies but not to nonconsenting female babies. Gotcha. And I'll state again for the record, I'm not in favor of either. And I was circumcised as a baby, btw.

jag

I'm for the double-standard. Fine by me.

I understand you may be angry at mommy and daddy for getting you snipped, but smegma is nasty.

 

[jaguarr]

I'm for the double-standard. Fine by me.

I understand you may be angry at mommy and daddy for getting you snipped, but smegma is nasty.

I'm not angry at my parents for anything, to be honest. Again, no need for the animosity. If you can't discuss the issue without reducing yourself to insults and snide comments then you really have nothing meaningful to contribute.

I just find it interesting how people's ethics shift back and forth where gender is concerned. Either it's wrong to do it to an unconsenting child or it's not as far as I'm concerned. If you're okay with doing it to a male child then you're sort of the pot calling the kettle black when decrying that it's being done to females by a very small substrata of the culture and it undermines your ethical position to do so.

jag

 

[moraldeficiency]

I think the problem with a lot of the reasoning here is the name. Female circumcision makes it sound and relates it to male circumcision. It's in no way similiar. If you cut a male's penis head off then it's similiar. So I've been cut, if I wasn't I'd go in and get it done (with heavy anethesia), if it involved cutting my @ickhead off, no @ucking way in hell would I live in the same state of a place that did it.

 

[Leto Atrides]

It's worse than that in traditional versions, they cut off the labias and sew the whole thing shut. So then they can't have sex without someone else cutting the stitches open to let them.

 

[Carcharodon]

I'm not angry at my parents for anything, to be honest. Again, no need for the animosity. If you can't discuss the issue without reducing yourself to insults and snide comments then you really have nothing meaningful to contribute.

It was a joke. Deal with it. You haven't seen animosity yet. Relax. The smegma should have tipped you off.

I just find it interesting how people's ethics shift back and forth where gender is concerned. Either it's wrong to do it to an unconsenting child or it's not as far as I'm concerned. If you're okay with doing it to a male child then you're sort of the pot calling the kettle black when decrying that it's being done to females by a very small substrata of the culture and it undermines your ethical position to do so.

jag

Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina. I see your point, but it's still a penis vs. vagina....erm...I mean apples vs. oranges argument. At the very least, female circumcision is worse than male circumcision due to its intent.

In practice, you're totally right. You can call me a hypocrite all you like, doesn't change the fact that I really have no qualms about male circumcision whereas I hold reservations about female circumcision.

 

[Jolie_Desastre]

disgusting poor girls

i remember that one episode of nip/tuck with that one girl who had this experience...cept she was conscious

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

And in our culture, we feed our kids tons upon tons of chemical preservatives and sugar which causes all kinds of behavior disorders and health problems for them. And, we have a lot of mothers using drugs while pregnant and during breast-feeding, creating a whole generation of mentally deficient, emotionally crippled children. Every culture finds ways to f**k up their kids by doing something horrid to them unintentionally as part of their normal cultural day-to-day. And, yes, it's Wrong/Stupid/Ignorant/Deadly....but there's not a society in the world that doesn't do it to one extent or another.

jag

Right. I think I've effectively established that I'm disgusted with American society. Just because we do disgusting/insane things doesn't mean I can't be disgusted by the insane things other people do.
Everyone's evil and insane.
Asylum Earth.

 

[zanos]

Well it pretty much seems like all circumcisions are against peoples will. But female circucisions really seems to serve no point where its still up for debate about male circumcision.

Both were meant to curb sexual desires. That is the entire basis for both procedures. There is no debate.

 

[zanos]

It was a joke. Deal with it. You haven't seen animosity yet. Relax. The smegma should have tipped you off.

Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina. I see your point, but it's still a penis vs. vagina....erm...I mean apples vs. oranges argument. At the very least, female circumcision is worse than male circumcision due to its intent.

In practice, you're totally right. You can call me a hypocrite all you like, doesn't change the fact that I really have no qualms about male circumcision whereas I hold reservations about female circumcision.

Intent is the same. Just because ppl along the centuries are come up with excuses for male circumcision to justify it doesn't take away the original intent of the procedure which is the same as female circumcision.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

"Guns, Germs and Steel"

All racists should be required to watch that.

 

[GoldenAgeHero]

[jorgumund]all women in the US should have this done to them, they need to be kept in check[/jorgumund]

 

[Fran]

You completely and utterly f***ed his name up.

But it is spot-on.

 

[jaguarr]

Right. I think I've effectively established that I'm disgusted with American society. Just because we do disgusting/insane things doesn't mean I can't be disgusted by the insane things other people do.
Everyone's evil and insane.
Asylum Earth.

Indeed. :farmerfran:

jag

 

[AndThePickles]

"Female genital mutilation usually involves the removal of the clitoris and other parts of female genitalia. Those who practice it say it tames a girl's sexual desire and maintains her honor."