"Founded on Christian Values"

[C.F. Kane]

I saw an article in Harper's the other day discussing how the Religious Right is remaking American history in their own image.

It's been done before in pretty much any country you can name, but is there any real historical basis for it? Many of the Founders were deists, not Christian. And most of the philosophy behind the early republic came out of John Locke, not the Bible.

Isn't tampering like this dangerous? By taking the founding ideology and warping it to fit your agenda, doesn't that in itself corrupt the ideals the country was really founded on?

 

[Mee]

Well, if we are changing it, it's not like it's just started. How long has "In God We Trust" been on our money? It's not any one person's agenda.


There were pastors in the founding congress, George Washington has that famous going off alone to pray before battle thing, I dunno if history has been tweaked that much.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

wouldn't the bigger issue be that it seems important to people to conserve ideologies that are like ....hundreds of years old instead of evolving them.
I mean, faith was used to justify slavery back then is it applicable now?

No.

it's insanely funny when people say " well the spirit of our founding fathers blah blah blah"
shut up. you don't seem to be acquainted with the "spirit" of anything.
seriously, this whole thing with people and their religion is darkly Ironic.
I don't seen how if ANY religion is sooo string and right it needs to be sanctioned by the state and be all Official and stuff, it's just people wanting their club to be the best.

well that and ignorance.

 

[C.F. Kane]

on a related topic, how come I haven't been able to get a thread going for more than three posts?

 

[HR-PUFF&STUFF]

on a related topic, how come I haven't been able to get a thread going for more than three posts?

becaue you touch yourself at night.

 

[Corinthian™]

I saw an article in Harper's the other day discussing how the Religious Right is remaking American history in their own image.

It's been done before in pretty much any country you can name, but is there any real historical basis for it? Many of the Founders were deists, not Christian. And most of the philosophy behind the early republic came out of John Locke, not the Bible.

Isn't tampering like this dangerous? By taking the founding ideology and warping it to fit your agenda, doesn't that in itself corrupt the ideals the country was really founded on?

But, John Locke was a Christian and a strong believer of Christ! He and Saint Samuel Adams, may his soul rest with God

 

[Canadian Rider]

wouldn't the bigger issue be that it seems important to people to conserve ideologies that are like ....hundreds of years old instead of evolving them.
I mean, faith was used to justify slavery back then is it applicable now?

No.

it's insanely funny when people say " well the spirit of our founding fathers blah blah blah"
shut up. you don't seem to be acquainted with the "spirit" of anything.
seriously, this whole thing with people and their religion is darkly Ironic.
I don't seen how if ANY religion is sooo string and right it needs to be sanctioned by the state and be all Official and stuff, it's just people wanting their club to be the best.

well that and ignorance.

Some of the rhetoric and actions taken could be viewed as an attempt to prevent or create a situation where other "religions" or movements could not make gains or change things to suit their ideologies.

Muslim faith based governments are seen by most government officials in Washington (view based on Canadian reports of US politics) as potentially dangerous to the american way of life and world, so a preemptive measure may be to put things in place to "stave off" those attempts by other groups to change things to their way of thinking ...

 

[heypapajinx]

Isn't tampering like this dangerous? By taking the founding ideology and warping it to fit your agenda, doesn't that in itself corrupt the ideals the country was really founded on?

yes, i agree that tampering with such a thing and moulding it to fit your agenda warps the entire message to a biased interpretation.

but i think it's sad that you automatically assume that those ideals are what this country was founded on. this country wasn't supposed to be founded on "Christian Values". it was supposed to be founded on "Freedom Of Religion Values". that just shows we've got a long way to go baby.

 

[Canadian Rider]

wouldn't the bigger issue be that it seems important to people to conserve ideologies that are like ....hundreds of years old instead of evolving them.
I mean, faith was used to justify slavery back then is it applicable now?

Abraham Lincoln was a christian and was adamantly opposed to continuing slavery was he not? Was it his faith that made him anti-slavery?

Was it the faith of those in the south that made them feel slavery must continue, or racism and greed?

 

[Spider-Bite]

Our founding fathers had a good idea. Create a utopian paradise. They also had a bad idea. Manifest Destiny. The belief that this was God's chosen land and it was to spread across the planet.

Our founding fathers were really horrible people, and whatever their intentions were, have no bearing on any of my positions or desires. They were slave owning, women oppressing, gay hating, heathen hating, Indian murderers.

When people are arguing with me and say "that's not what this country was founded on" I say so what? I'm not them, and I don't have to found my beliefs on the same thing as theirs, because I'm not them.

I do belief we should invest in a utopian future, but the founding fathers missed an important aspect of what utopia means. It's not utopian unless its utopian for everybody. If people have slaves than its not very utopian for the slaves. The same goes for all their other victims.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Abraham Lincoln was a christian and was adamantly opposed to continuing slavery was he not? Was it his faith that made him anti-slavery?

Was it the faith of those in the south that made them feel slavery must continue, or racism and greed?

remind me of where I said that faith was somehow the cause of pro-slavery attitudes.

 

[Corinthian™]

Abraham Lincoln was a christian and was adamantly opposed to continuing slavery was he not? Was it his faith that made him anti-slavery?

Was it the faith of those in the south that made them feel slavery must continue, or racism and greed?

wait... since when the whole "free slaves" thingie stop being "resolution kick the south in the nuts"?

The whole thing has no religious overtones at all.. in fact, stoping slavery was just used as a political, social and psychological way of kicking the south while it was down

stop believing that crap that Abraham Lincoln was a freedom lover for ****'s sake!

 

[danielisthor]

wait... since when the whole "free slaves" thingie stop being "resolution kick the south in the nuts"?

The whole thing has no religious overtones at all.. in fact, stoping slavery was just used as a political, social and psychological way of kicking the south while it was down

stop believing that crap that Abraham Lincoln was a freedom lover for ****'s sake!

To add to this, it is a widely known fact that one of President Lincoln's reasons to free the slaves was to keep Great Britian from siding with the South and sending help to them.

 

[GreenKToo]

Not only Britian,but france as well.
http://www.civilwarhome.com/europeandcivilwar.htm

To add to this, it is a widely known fact that one of President Lincoln's reasons to free the slaves was to keep Great Britian from siding with the South and sending help to them.

 

[C.F. Kane]

yes, i agree that tampering with such a thing and moulding it to fit your agenda warps the entire message to a biased interpretation.

but i think it's sad that you automatically assume that those ideals are what this country was founded on. this country wasn't supposed to be founded on "Christian Values". it was supposed to be founded on "Freedom Of Religion Values". that just shows we've got a long way to go baby.

What in my first post made you think that I believed in the "Christian Values theory"?

 

[Kritish]

Well, if we are changing it, it's not like it's just started. How long has "In God We Trust" been on our money? It's not any one person's agenda.


There were pastors in the founding congress, George Washington has that famous going off alone to pray before battle thing, I dunno if history has been tweaked that much.

The hell it is, "In God we trust" was added in the fifties as a counter move againt "the ever spreading red menace". We were just trying to piss the commies off, it needs to be taken off.

 

[Addendum]

Abraham Lincoln was a christian and was adamantly opposed to continuing slavery was he not? Was it his faith that made him anti-slavery?

Was it the faith of those in the south that made them feel slavery must continue, or racism and greed?

While he was against slavery, Lincoln was not a christian.

Abraham Lincoln- Deist and Admirer of Thomas Paine

In 1846, when he was a candidate for Congress against a Methodist minister, the Rev. Peter Cartwright, his opponent openly accused him of being an unbeliever, and Lincoln never denied it. A story is told of Mr. Cartwright's holding a revival meeting while the campaign was in progress, during which Lincoln stepped into one of his meetings. When Cartwright asked the audience, "Will all who want to go to heaven stand up?" all arose except Lincoln. When he asked, "Now, will all who want to go to hell stand up?" Lincoln still remained in his seat. Mr. Cartwright then said, "All have stood up for one place or the other except Mr. Lincoln, and we would like to know where he expects to go." Lincoln arose and quietly said, "I am going to Congress," and there he went

 

[Addendum]

Our founding fathers had a good idea. Create a utopian paradise. They also had a bad idea. Manifest Destiny. The belief that this was God's chosen land and it was to spread across the planet.

Study history. "Manifest Destiny" was first used by Jackson Democrats in the 1840s.

Broadly, Jacksonian democracy, in contrast to the Jeffersonian era, promoted the strength of the executive branch and the Presidency at the expense of Congressional power, while also seeking to broaden the public's participation in government. Jacksonians believed in enfranchising all eligible white males, rather than just the propertied class, and supported the patronage system that enabled politicians to appoint their supporters into administrative offices, arguing that it would lead to increased public participation in politics. They opposed appointive judges. They rewrote many state constitutions to reflect the new values. In national terms the Jacksonians favored geographical expansion, sometimes justifying it in terms of Manifest Destiny.

 

[The Lizard]

Our founding fathers were really horrible people, and whatever their intentions were, have no bearing on any of my positions or desires. They were slave owning, women oppressing, gay hating, heathen hating, Indian murderers.

You're going a bit overboard here. There is such a thing as historical context. If you were raised in a time period and a place where things like slavery and imperialism went on all around you your whole life, it wouldn't be quite so easy to see it as the same abomination you recognize it as today.

This doesn't make things like historcal slavery right, of course, but simply because a certain historical figure took part in practices that we easily recognize as being unacceptable in the 21st century doesn't neccessarily mean that they were "horrible people" that are unable to teach us anything of historical value today.

 

[Addendum]

Our founding fathers were really horrible people, and whatever their intentions were, have no bearing on any of my positions or desires. They were slave owning, women oppressing, gay hating, heathen hating, Indian murderers.

The delegates practiced a wide range of occupations, and many pursued more than one career simultaneously. Thirty-five were lawyers or had benefited from legal training, though not all of them relied on the profession for a livelihood. Some had also become judges.

* At the time of the convention, 13 individuals were merchants: Blount, Broom, Clymer, Dayton, Fitzsimons, Gerry, Gilman, Gorham, Langdon, Robert Morris, Pierce, Sherman, and Wilson.
* Six were major land speculators: Blount, Dayton, Fitzsimons, Gorham, Robert Morris, and Wilson.
* Eleven speculated in securities on a large scale: Bedford, Blair, Clymer, Dayton, Fitzsimons, Franklin, King, Langdon, Robert Morris, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, and Sherman.
* Twelve owned or managed slave-operated plantations or large farms: Bassett, Blair, Blount, Butler, Carroll, Jenifer, Mason, Charles Pinckney, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, Rutledge, Spaight, and Washington. Madison also owned slaves as did Franklin who later freed his slaves and became an abolitionist.
* Broom and Few were small farmers.
* Nine of the men received a substantial part of their income from public office: Baldwin, Blair, Brearly, Gilman, Jenifer, Livingston, Madison, and Rutledge.
* Three had retired from active economic endeavors: Franklin, McHenry, and Mifflin.
* Franklin and Williamson were scientists, in addition to their other activities.
* McClurg, McHenry, and Williamson were physicians, and Johnson was a college president.
* Baldwin had been a minister, and Williamson, Madison, Ellsworth, and possibly others had studied theology but had never been ordained

Again, study history. It's kinda helpful to actually have facts instead of assumptions led by blind hatred of an ideology you don't agree with.

 

[Taiwarriorz21]

IN GOD I TRUST. That's were I stand.

 

[The Lizard]

 

[ShadowBoxing]

The problem is most rational people would come to a code of ethics *similar* to what is found in the Bible. Likely the would feel killing, stealing, rape, and unchecked lust, pride and glutton were wrong. I've even had a Preacher tell me I embodied Christian values better than most Christians just from being rational and reasonable in my approach to problems.

So yes, I agree it's a problem to claim any system that was founded with values similar to Christian values is a Christian system. God may have commandments or messages similar to other's viewpoints, but to be founded on Christian values implies religion influence...which may or may not be the case.

And in this case is not.

 

[Kritish]

Benjamin Franklin was a great man, he was a scientist a progressive and the first post master. But if he saw what we did today he would be embarrassed. He would have supported separation of church and state. He was pro-womens rights, and he should have been president.
This is one of the few things that Spider-bite is wrong about.

John Hancock was a rum smuggler, and several of the founding fathers were diests. These hard to ignore facts piss the neo-cons more than anything else.

 

[Addendum]

IN GOD I TRUST. That's were I stand.

I stand here

And here (before Chicago ruined Soldier Field)

And here