Fox's Fantastic Four: Sequel Ideas

DigificWriter

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Just last night, I was able to see Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, and really enjoyed it. Now, I'm aware that it didn't make enough money to warrant a sequel, and I'm also aware that there are plans in the works to reboot the franchise entirely, but seeing the film prompted me to ask the following question: Where might the series have gone in future installments?

This is a question that I'm posing to you, my fellow comic book movie fans. Where do you think the FF franchise could have gone following Surfer, given the way the film ended?

I wouldn't have minded seeing the Surfer return in some capacity, and there was definitely more to be done with Doom, but other than that, I'm not entirely sure what you could have done story-wise, since the FF are a group of characters I don't actually know a whole lot about.
 
Lots of stories to be told, either with the old cast or a new group -

At some point it only makes sense that they encounter their evil counterparts in the Frightful Four.

There's a nice story arc with the Mad Thinker that would make a good film.

Something with the Skrulls/Super Skrull would be good.

After a Frightful Four story to introduce Medusa, an Inhumans film would be a natural.

Mole Man, Diablo, Dragon Man, Psycho Man, the Negative Zone and it's inhabitants, the list goes on and on - Fox has only scratched the surface.

Reboot or not, they need to give Doom a rest and put the spot light on another villain.
 
Lots of stories to be told, either with the old cast or a new group -

At some point it only makes sense that they encounter their evil counterparts in the Frightful Four.

There's a nice story arc with the Mad Thinker that would make a good film.

Something with the Skrulls/Super Skrull would be good.

After a Frightful Four story to introduce Medusa, an Inhumans film would be a natural.

Mole Man, Diablo, Dragon Man, Psycho Man, the Negative Zone and it's inhabitants, the list goes on and on - Fox has only scratched the surface.

Reboot or not, they need to give Doom a rest and put the spot light on another villain.

The problem is a lot of those villains are completely one dimesnional.

Mole Man comes across more often then not as a plot device, he is the guy who controls monsters and attacks the surface world for no real reason, instead of a character that is fleshed out or compelling.

Most of the frightful four are dull one dimensional characters, the Wizard is completely one dimesnional character for example and he would be the big bad, he has no personality beyond being a snide, obnoxious jerk. He too evil to be sympathetic, too silly to be scary, so you get a very flat character. Plus he doesn't seem like a match for Reed Richards to terms of smarts. Also Trapster is pretty lame character, no real motive to explain why he became a criminal and pretty lame gimmick that has far more civilian uses then criminal ones. I don't see how he is a threat to anyone on the FF without big doses of plot induced studity on the Fantastic Four's side.

Even the comics, most of the time, those guys are pretty dull characters.

The problem is the Fox movies, we didn't get the real Doom, we get some lame pretender, a corporate smug snake. None of the noble qualities or majestic presence Doom had. That's reason to reboot the series, that and cloud Galactus.
 
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None of these villains are any more one dimensional that all the characters in AVATAR, and that worked out okay.

I am sure any decent screen writer can flesh them out enough to give them the depth they would need.

I have no problem with bringing Doom back in the rebooted series, not just the first one. Even the holy grail of reboots, BATMAN BEGINS, used all new villains in the first movie and saved dusting off already used characters like the Joker and Two-Face for their second outing.
 
You know, it's easy to brush aside the two Fantastic Four movies when you haven't seen them in a long time, but I just caught Rise of the Silver Surfer on TV the other day and actually found myself really enjoying it. It made me remember that, in a lot of ways, these movies weren't too bad.

They nailed the family dynamic and the Fantastic Four themselves. I'd even say that the Silver Surfer himself was absolutely perfect; the scenes he featured in felt epic. What really brings the films down is their failure at adapting the villains. Doctor Doom and Galactus are both some of the most powerful, interesting villains that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby ever created and the filmmakers completely dropped the ball on both of them.

As far as what the plot should have been for the third movie - even though I remember them talking a lot about the Black Panther and Wakanda, it seems obvious to me that the right approach would've been to show the invasion of the Skrulls. Either that, or they could go into the Negative Zone and battle Annihilus. The Fantastic Four are always at their best in the more cosmic, "out there" stories anyway.
 
None of these villains are any more one dimensional that all the characters in AVATAR, and that worked out okay.

I am sure any decent screen writer can flesh them out enough to give them the depth they would need.

I think the villain in Avatar was more scary due to his position more then anything else, though frankly he was the weakest thing in that movie, so that's nothing to brag about.

However unlike Wizard or Mole Man, the Colonel from avatar looked fearsome and seemed to able to handle himself without his mech or men, so had abilities of his own, instead of having to rely on him, him willing to hold his breath in a toxic environment to shoot at his enemeis, shows more fanatical personal determination and ambition, then anything Wizard has done.

To put simply he was more of a "bad ass" then Wizard and Mole Man ever were and even then that's all he had going for him, but frankly its something he had that they don't.

Dr. Doom is a bad ass, but Wizard is just an obnoxious little slug, there is nothing cool or appealing about him, he is just completely annoying and he is one dimensional. He's a failed character on almost every level. I don't think he has much of fan base and there's a good reason for that, he isn't well written.

Wizard is a Smug Snake and that's all there is too him: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmugSnake

I have no problem with bringing Doom back in the rebooted series, not just the first one. Even the holy grail of reboots, BATMAN BEGINS, used all new villains in the first movie and saved dusting off already used characters like the Joker and Two-Face for their second outing.

Yeah, but have to do better villains then that, ra's al Ghul and Scarecrow are better written then Wizard or Mole Man. It be like having Crazy Quilt as the villain in a first rebooted Batman movie.

Wizard is a particularly bad character, he's a forth rate Dr. Doom wannabe, with lamer tech, lamer costume, lamer name and even his motive is nothing more then rip off Dr. doom's, he beats to beat Reed Richards to prove he is his intellectual superior, where have I heard that before.

Wizard is also pretty stupid for an evil genius, pitiing Trapster against a tream that takes down Galctus and Doom on a regular basis,also why not form an Evil Eight instead of Frightful four. The Fantastic Four is better in terms of team work, intellegence and raw power, the frightful Four are kinda pathetic comapred to them and only pose a threat due to massive plot induced studity.

Heck I think the Ultimate Frightful Four is way better then their 616 counter parts.

Wizard is pretty alme villain to have as the big bad of an FF reboot. Mole Man is only slighly better, but still an uninteresting character who comes more as plot device then a character, you either have to change these characters or not use them.
 
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Given that I see the films and their universe as being at least 'quasi-realistic', I had no problem with the way that Galactus was realized, nor do I have any issues with Doom's portrayal.

I was also doing some thinking, and came to the conclusion that there are a couple of different possibilities for where the story could have gone, based on how Surfer ended:
1) The Frightful Four/Five: I think these guys would make good 'foils' for Doom, and would be a good counterpoint to the Four, particularly since the second film dealt with tensions caused amongst the group based on Johnny's impulsiveness and the possibility of the team splitting up due to Reed and Sue getting married.

2) The Skrulls or the Kree; even though Surfer dealt with the threat of cosmic 'invasion' to a degree, the door was still open to further conflicts of this scale, and such a storyline could've allowed for the Surfer to return as an ally to the team.

Thoughts?
 
You can not get a much "lamer" villain than Whiplash, and Marvel seams to have been able to evolve him into something interesting for IM2 - so I am sure the same could be done for ANY of the FF villains.
 
Lots of stories to be told, either with the old cast or a new group -

At some point it only makes sense that they encounter their evil counterparts in the Frightful Four.
U-Foes would be better.
Also in all actuality are the Fantastic Four's real counterparts.
 
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Did the FF ever encounter the U-Foes?

There is at least one classic evil FF story [#41-43] that would make a great foundation for an FF movie. Toss in the Wizard's Wonder Gloves and he is on a power level equal to the Thing's. The others can be enhanced [like Whiplash has been] to make them more of a threat.

I am a fan of the Kirby/Lee run of the FF, so I would prefer pulling characters from those 100 plus issues, if possible.
 
Did the FF ever encounter the U-Foes?

There is at least one classic evil FF story [#41-43] that would make a great foundation for an FF movie. Toss in the Wizard's Wonder Gloves and he is on a power level equal to the Thing's. The others can be enhanced [like Whiplash has been] to make them more of a threat.

I am a fan of the Kirby/Lee run of the FF, so I would prefer pulling characters from those 100 plus issues, if possible.
 
You can not get a much "lamer" villain than Whiplash, and Marvel seams to have been able to evolve him into something interesting for IM2 - so I am sure the same could be done for ANY of the FF villains.

Yeah but they actually changed Whiplash to fit the movie.

They more or less combined Whiplash with Crimson Dynamo and added their own stuff, they clearly gave him a personal motive for hating Tony Stark, he wasn't just some guy who invented energy whips, decided to rob banks and then just hated Iron Man for stopping him from robbing banks.

So they actually changed Whiplash to fit the movie and they changed him a lot, because he was a crappy character, same deal with Mole Man and Wizard, they are pretty lame characters with one dimensional personalities, so they need a lot of changes before they can work on screen.

Did the FF ever encounter the U-Foes?

There is at least one classic evil FF story [#41-43] that would make a great foundation for an FF movie. Toss in the Wizard's Wonder Gloves and he is on a power level equal to the Thing's. The others can be enhanced [like Whiplash has been] to make them more of a threat.

I am a fan of the Kirby/Lee run of the FF, so I would prefer pulling characters from those 100 plus issues, if possible.

How would you upgrade Trapster into a threat to anyone? The fact that they would have problems with a guy with a glue gun would make the FF look stupid.

Also upgrading their powers, doesn't make Wizard or Trapster any less one dimensional and not compelling.

Kirby and Lee created some great characters, but Wizard and Traspster are not amongst them, they have always been poorly written characters. I mean why are they criminals again, they don't even have a good motive. Those were bad characters they created, no bats a thousand.

I mean Dr. Doom has an actually compelling back story, does Wizard or traspter have that?

I like the U-foes better then the frightful Four, but Fox doesn't have the rights to them. Frankly the Ultimate Frightful four are way better then the 616 Frightful Four.

Frankly I don't see why the Frightful four are needed, the storyline in FF 41-43 is more about the thing being brain washed more then anything else, you can accomplish the same thing with Puppet Master and Mad thinker, they are also better characters then Wizard and Trapster. Puppet Master has a personal connection to the FF through Alica and Mad thinker seems more morally ambiguous rather then outright evil, considering he was willing to help the New Warriors. Both of them are more interesting then The Wingless "Mwa, ha, ha! I hate the Fantastic Four for no particular reason" Wizard.
 
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That's what I am saying - change them as needed to make them more interesting, but at least start with them as a foundation. It would be just as easy to give the Wizard the same motivation for hating Reed as Whiplash has for hating Tony.
 
That's what I am saying - change them as needed to make them more interesting, but at least start with them as a foundation. It would be just as easy to give the Wizard the same motivation for hating Reed as Whiplash has for hating Tony.
You have a better chance with Mole man.
Just like they are doing with Whiplash.I said it before.Mole man was a scientist who proposed the idea of Subterrianain life and was riduculed by his peers who then turns to his friend Reed Richards for support.Reed of course lets him down causing him to retreat from life as we know disappears and creates an underground empire to destroy the upper dwellers and most of all Reed Richards.It can be done and done well with loads of Monsters for Ben to smash and Johnny to burn.Especially when they kidnap Sue and take her underground.
Make the Mole man the first villian like in the comics it can be done.
It just needs to be fleshed out really well.It can be fun Sci FI!!!!This makes the transition to Sci even easier.Also If you wanted you could throw (Dragon Man or Fin Fang Foom in there as one of the creatures.Makes sense.)
MoleMan02.jpg
 
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That's what I am saying - change them as needed to make them more interesting, but at least start with them as a foundation. It would be just as easy to give the Wizard the same motivation for hating Reed as Whiplash has for hating Tony.

Not really, considering Whiplash hates Tony due his past as an arms dealer, so yeah, you can't just give Whiplash's motive to Wizard, Whiplash's motive deals with something specific in Tony's past. Plus it be pretty lame to just have Wizard steal Whiplash's motive, it would be very uncreative.

And really I can't think of any reason why Trapster would be a criminal instead of just making millions patenting his glue or why a guy with a glue gun is a threat to anyone in the FF.

I mean can you think of good motives for Wizard or Trapster?

You have a better chance with Mole man.
Just like they are doing with Whiplash.I said it before.Mole man was a scientist who proposed the idea of Subterrianain life and was riduculed by his peers who then turns to his friend Reed Richards for support.Reed of course lets him down causing him to retreat from life as we know disappears and creates an underground empire to destroy the upper dwellers and most of all Reed Richards.It can be done and done well with loads of Monsters for Ben to smash and Johnny to burn.Especially when they kidnap Sue and take her underground.
Make the Mole man the first villian like in the comics it can be done.
It just needs to be fleshed out really well.It can be fun Sci FI!!!!This makes the transition to Sci even easier.Also If you wanted you could throw (Dragon Man or Fin Fang Foom in there as one of the creatures.Makes sense.)

I dunno, wasn't the the scientist who is bitter that no ones takes his theories seriously a cliche even back in the 30s. It doesn't make the character particularly deep. That doesn't tell me what kind of character Mole Man is, is he pure evil or does have sympathetic elements to him? If he does have sympathetic elements to him, what are they? Also if Mole Man has no powers himself what would be the climax?

I think Mole Man is better choice then the frightful Four, but you still need a lot work on him to make him ready for the Silver screen.
 
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I went and looked at the bios for the members of the Frightful Four, and what I picked up on is the dual themes of escalation and the darker side of celebrity status. The way that I think you could make a variation of the Frightful Four work in terms of the current FF movieverse would be to make each member's motives center around one or both of those themes.

Another way to make the Frightful Four work as credible villains would be to make each of its members 'mirror images' in some way of the Fantastic Four's members. For example, in looking at the Wizard's bio, I think it would be very easy to make him a darker 'foil' for Reed. Even though the movieverse Doom fills this role to a degree already, I see no reason why you couldn't perpetuate the theme/archetype with the Wizard as well, particularly if you used jealousy as his motivation for doing what he does.

Another key in making the Frightful Four concept work and lend it some credibility would be to be extremely choosy in picking its members. My ideal membership in terms of adapting the group to the existing FF movieverse would be as follows:
The Wizard
Hydro-Man
Quicksand
Red Ghost

I picked the members by taking two factors into account: 1) their innate powers and 2) the ways in which they could serve as 'mirrors' to the Fantastic Four's individual members in motivation. I also looked at the overall membership of the group, rather than just the current iteration(s).
 
Oh, by no means would I use the current Frightful Four line up. Stick with the originals, except change Sandman to Quicksand [due to Sony].

I am not saying give them the same motivations as Whiplash, I am just saying that Marvel found a motivation for Whiplash/Iron Man and it would be just as easy to do so with the Evil FF/FF. A grudge by the Wizard is no more cliche than Whiplash's - it's ALL been done before.
 
Oh, by no means would I use the current Frightful Four line up. Stick with the originals, except change Sandman to Quicksand [due to Sony].

I am not saying give them the same motivations as Whiplash, I am just saying that Marvel found a motivation for Whiplash/Iron Man and it would be just as easy to do so with the Evil FF/FF. A grudge by the Wizard is no more cliche than Whiplash's - it's ALL been done before.

The problem with even just using the original Frightful Four lineup is that there is really no unifying theme amongst them that you could use to build on, as only The Wizard truly has a motivation that makes sense in terms of using the team as 'foils' for the Fantastic Four. Taking a look at the entirety of the group's membership - past and present - would let you make use of the concept in a way that gives the group a unifying reason for existing.
 
I think their original motivation for teaming up is enough for me - they were seeking strength in numbers.
I don't think every villain needs a personal connection with the hero he is fighting, that has certainly been done to death, but if that's what the studio or public need - fine, do it.
 
I think their original motivation for teaming up is enough for me - they were seeking strength in numbers.
I don't think every villain needs a personal connection with the hero he is fighting, that has certainly been done to death, but if that's what the studio or public need - fine, do it.
 
I dunno, wasn't the the scientist who is bitter that no ones takes his theories seriously a cliche even back in the 30s. It doesn't make the character particularly deep. That doesn't tell me what kind of character Mole Man is, is he pure evil or does have sympathetic elements to him? If he does have sympathetic elements to him, what are they? Also if Mole Man has no powers himself what would be the climax?

I think Mole Man is better choice then the frightful Four, but you still need a lot work on him to make him ready for the Silver screen.
True but the misguided Scientist still worked in Spiderman 2 and was being set up for Spiderman 4 with Dr.Conners(Lizard)before the reboot the rejected jealous lover is even more of a cliche and that's what they went for in FF 1.
It can be done and done within reason and diffintly plausible considering Reeds back ground as a Scientist himself.I'm sure he has met many a crackpot in his day.
Also the climax can be a total attack upon NEW YORK with a Cloverfield Monster at the end.heck why not even bring Dragon man as one of his creatures.Or that monsterous creature from the cover of the first issue.It sure would make the movie Iconic.
 
The problem is a lot of those villains are completely one dimesnional.

Mole Man comes across more often then not as a plot device, he is the guy who controls monsters and attacks the surface world for no real reason, instead of a character that is fleshed out or compelling.

Most of the frightful four are dull one dimensional characters, the Wizard is completely one dimesnional character for example and he would be the big bad, he has no personality beyond being a snide, obnoxious jerk. He too evil to be sympathetic, too silly to be scary, so you get a very flat character. Plus he doesn't seem like a match for Reed Richards to terms of smarts. Also Trapster is pretty lame character, no real motive to explain why he became a criminal and pretty lame gimmick that has far more civilian uses then criminal ones. I don't see how he is a threat to anyone on the FF without big doses of plot induced studity on the Fantastic Four's side.

Even the comics, most of the time, those guys are pretty dull characters.

The problem is the Fox movies, we didn't get the real Doom, we get some lame pretender, a corporate smug snake. None of the noble qualities or majestic presence Doom had. That's reason to reboot the series, that and cloud Galactus.

There's a hell of a lot more to being a round character than being sympathetic or scary. You can have completely flat characters who sympathetic or scary, and fully realized, three dimensional characters who are neither. This also applies to villains. A villain doesn't have to be scary to be an effective villain, nor must he be sympathetic. Being a three dimensional character doesn't have to have anything do to with how sympathetic your motivations are, and it has everything to do with how many layers of personality they have outside of the role they fill in the story. Perfect example is The Mayor of Sunnydale in Buffy The Vampire Slayer. His evil scheme? Make a pact with demons to built a town on top of a portal to hell to give demons a massive feeding ground, cover up and facilitate the horrors they inflict on the townspeople for 100 years, only stopping them when they might destroy the town (or world) all together, and ultimately personally slaughtering a few hundred high school seniors and their families on the day of their graduation. His motivation? Doing all of this would transform him into an all powerful, Cthullu-esque elder Demon-God. Totally selfish, evil motives and acts. But he was a three dimensional character, because he had hobbies, interests, mannerisms, outlooks, and a personal history that were very well developed and realistic.

And on the note of being sympathetic... a sign of a good writer isn't that they can make a character morally ambiguous enough to be sympathetic. It's when they can make a character who is a truly evil son of a ***** sympathetic. This usually happens by giving them humanizing moments. Not moments that paints their morals or motivations in a more ambiguous light, but moments that show that the character, alongside their evil schemes and deeds, is capable of human emotions and needs. I will use The Mayor as an example once again: He had a very loving, very nurturing father/daughter like relationship with his enforcer, Faith. This in no way effected or informed his plans, he had made them 100 years before he ever met her, although the one addition is that she would not have a place of power and comfort secured by his side when he ascended. And despite all of their sweet father/daughter bonding moments that made it very clear that they truly, genuinely cared about one another, the show created no illusions about the fact that he was an evil manipulator and she was a stone cold killer. But those moments allowed us to connect to the characters and understand them. The sign of a good writer is not generating sympathy by reminding us that the character is good, but by reminding us that the character is human (figuratively, if not biologically).
 
There's a hell of a lot more to being a round character than being sympathetic or scary. You can have completely flat characters who sympathetic or scary, and fully realized, three dimensional characters who are neither. This also applies to villains. A villain doesn't have to be scary to be an effective villain, nor must he be sympathetic. Being a three dimensional character doesn't have to have anything do to with how sympathetic your motivations are, and it has everything to do with how many layers of personality they have outside of the role they fill in the story. Perfect example is The Mayor of Sunnydale in Buffy The Vampire Slayer. His evil scheme? Make a pact with demons to built a town on top of a portal to hell to give demons a massive feeding ground, cover up and facilitate the horrors they inflict on the townspeople for 100 years, only stopping them when they might destroy the town (or world) all together, and ultimately personally slaughtering a few hundred high school seniors and their families on the day of their graduation. His motivation? Doing all of this would transform him into an all powerful, Cthullu-esque elder Demon-God. Totally selfish, evil motives and acts. But he was a three dimensional character, because he had hobbies, interests, mannerisms, outlooks, and a personal history that were very well developed and realistic.

And on the note of being sympathetic... a sign of a good writer isn't that they can make a character morally ambiguous enough to be sympathetic. It's when they can make a character who is a truly evil son of a ***** sympathetic. This usually happens by giving them humanizing moments. Not moments that paints their morals or motivations in a more ambiguous light, but moments that show that the character, alongside their evil schemes and deeds, is capable of human emotions and needs. I will use The Mayor as an example once again: He had a very loving, very nurturing father/daughter like relationship with his enforcer, Faith. This in no way effected or informed his plans, he had made them 100 years before he ever met her, although the one addition is that she would not have a place of power and comfort secured by his side when he ascended. And despite all of their sweet father/daughter bonding moments that made it very clear that they truly, genuinely cared about one another, the show created no illusions about the fact that he was an evil manipulator and she was a stone cold killer. But those moments allowed us to connect to the characters and understand them. The sign of a good writer is not generating sympathy by reminding us that the character is good, but by reminding us that the character is human (figuratively, if not biologically).

*applause*

Moral ambiguity is exceptionally overrated.
 
There's a hell of a lot more to being a round character than being sympathetic or scary. You can have completely flat characters who sympathetic or scary, and fully realized, three dimensional characters who are neither. This also applies to villains. A villain doesn't have to be scary to be an effective villain, nor must he be sympathetic. Being a three dimensional character doesn't have to have anything do to with how sympathetic your motivations are, and it has everything to do with how many layers of personality they have outside of the role they fill in the story. Perfect example is The Mayor of Sunnydale in Buffy The Vampire Slayer. His evil scheme? Make a pact with demons to built a town on top of a portal to hell to give demons a massive feeding ground, cover up and facilitate the horrors they inflict on the townspeople for 100 years, only stopping them when they might destroy the town (or world) all together, and ultimately personally slaughtering a few hundred high school seniors and their families on the day of their graduation. His motivation? Doing all of this would transform him into an all powerful, Cthullu-esque elder Demon-God. Totally selfish, evil motives and acts. But he was a three dimensional character, because he had hobbies, interests, mannerisms, outlooks, and a personal history that were very well developed and realistic.

And on the note of being sympathetic... a sign of a good writer isn't that they can make a character morally ambiguous enough to be sympathetic. It's when they can make a character who is a truly evil son of a ***** sympathetic. This usually happens by giving them humanizing moments. Not moments that paints their morals or motivations in a more ambiguous light, but moments that show that the character, alongside their evil schemes and deeds, is capable of human emotions and needs. I will use The Mayor as an example once again: He had a very loving, very nurturing father/daughter like relationship with his enforcer, Faith. This in no way effected or informed his plans, he had made them 100 years before he ever met her, although the one addition is that she would not have a place of power and comfort secured by his side when he ascended. And despite all of their sweet father/daughter bonding moments that made it very clear that they truly, genuinely cared about one another, the show created no illusions about the fact that he was an evil manipulator and she was a stone cold killer. But those moments allowed us to connect to the characters and understand them. The sign of a good writer is not generating sympathy by reminding us that the character is good, but by reminding us that the character is human (figuratively, if not biologically).

One I think someone willing to sacrifice an entire town to demons for perosnal power is a very scary character, you have non sympathetic villain, but the character should have a presence, some menace, should be threatening and terrifying or have some style, not be some doofus in pink spandex with a phallic shaped helmet. William Stryker in X-2 wasn't sympathetic, but he was scary villain, a symbol of fanatical hatred. Obadiah Stane, Joker, Abomiation and other such comic movie villains were not sympathetic, but still compelling.

Two how does any of this apply to the Wizard, how is he a 3 dimensional villain? Frankly he is not, there is nothing nothing to his character beyond being a snide jerk. Its a nice speech, but irrelevant if it doesn't apply to the characters we are talking about.

The problem with a Wizard is two fold, he's a forth rate Dr. doom clone and he's annoying. Dr. Doom has facets to his personality and goals beyond getting revenge on the Fantastic Four, does Wizxard have? And what's Wizard's motive, to defeat Reed Richards to prove he is the smartest man alive? Gee, where did I hear that before, maybe because its part of Doom's motive. Doom hates Reed because he blames reed for what hapened to his face, why does Wizard hate the FF again?

Wizard is also annoying, because unlike Doom who can back up his boasts, Wizard's boasts come off as nothing more then verbal diarrhea, he seems completely out of his depth when fighting the FF. Seriously why has he never formed Evil eight, because a genius would learn from his mistakes and try to not repeat them, Wizard forms Frightful fours, over and over again, thinking that will work this time, even though the Frightful four has failed every time. Also why he keep on putting Trapster on the team, instead of switching him someone more powerful. The Fantastic Four is one of the most power teams around and has some of the best team work skills in the Marvel universe and wizard seeks to defeat with a team that usually amounts to a bunch of street level thugs? Wizard even surrenders any sort of numbers advantage

Wizard is supposed to be a genius, but is written as idiot who is over his, head, all the time. He has ability as a inventor, but he is one of the worst tacticians in the Marvel universe and completely unconvincing as a FF villain. That's why he is a bad character.

*applause*

Moral ambiguity is exceptionally overrated.

But I never said a villain has to be sympathetic, I merely said its one way to make a character more multi dimensional.

When I said Wizard is not scary, that means something important, it means he lacks presence and menace and frankly is not a compelling villain at all.

I can find tons of villains scary on different levels, William Stryker from X-2 was scary, not because he had powers or was physically impressive, but because he represented something, fanatical hatred, the type of hatred of that causes wars and genocides. Not sympathetic at all, but still compelling.

How is Wizard compelling, what evil does he represent? Annoying, smug *****e bags?
 
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