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French Line Offers Lingerie for Girls As Young As Four

A child shouldn't be forced to work against their will. (Though there can be consequences for not working. Lets use the more typical situation of chores. A parent shouldn't be able to physically harm a child to make them due their chores*. They can, however, deprive them of their toys (that the parents bought), their allowance (which their parents give them) or desert (which their parents provide). They can't starve them to death, since they took the child is their responsibility (which they accepted either by giving birth to the child or adopting the child.)

*Now what qualifies as abuse is a trickier question. For example, is spanking abuse? In my gut, I would say yes. And such a position would make the above all the more consistent. If you attempted to spank anyone other than your child, you would face consequences. At the same time, my parents spanked me and I obviously would never have wanted to see them punished for it.

So I would qualify abuse as neglecting pain upon the child or emotionally damaging the child (sexual abuse).

Now I have nothing against child labor. In fact I think employment opportunities should be presented as a possible alternative for some to schooling. I also am strongly against banning child labor, which only serves to push children who need to work (because their parents don't make enough to support them) into black market trades (drugs, prostitution, employment-without-typical-benefits.)

Child labor laws exist for the same reason age of consent laws exist. Children's brains are not fully developed and they do not have the capacity to understand if they are being unfairly treated or exploited as employees. I would be willing to accept child labor as long as there is supervision by authorities and the children are protected.
 
Child labor laws exist for the same reason age of consent laws exist. Children's brains are not fully developed and they do not have the capacity to understand if they are being unfairly treated or exploited as employees. I would be willing to accept child labor as long as there is supervision by authorities and the children are protected.

Child labor laws exist, in large part, due to unions - but that opens up another discussion I don't want to get into (here at least :cwink:).

I do understand the case about the concern about children not knowing if they are being unfairly treated, but I think that is where a parents judgement has to come in.

Now does that mean that a parent could engage in terrible judgement? Absolutely. But any child who has such a parent is going to face the consequences of having a bad parent, regardless of the legality of child labor.
 
It's not a good analogy, because the condoms would be intended for the boy.

The lingerie is not intended for the girl. She may wear it, but it's for someone else's pleasure.

Hypothetically, what if it doesn't fail? You keep hinting it will fail (which I think makes you feel better about justifying its' availability), but what if it's a wild success? Let the pedos be... or take it off the market?

If it doesn't fail, then we have to deal with the fact that we live in a society where there is profitable demand for this product.

It would reflect a basic moral failing of society itself.
 
If it doesn't fail, then we have to deal with the fact that we live in a society where there is profitable demand for this product.

It would reflect a basic moral failing of society itself.

The difference between you and I, is that I think the failure to ban the legality of toddler lingerie is where the moral failing lies.
 
Correct. You want to force people to do right, I want people to do right for themselves.
 
I don't see how that matters.

If the pedophile has a child to buy this lingerie for, then the existence of the lingerie is irrelevant - the pedophile has the kid. Damage done.

If the pedophile doesn't have a child to buy this lingerie for, then the existence of the lingerie is irrelevant - the pedophile can't put it to use. No damage done.

What are you worried about? That the pedo is going to get off on promotional pictures of the lingerie?
 
But whether or not the pedophile has a kid, or doesn't have a kid... don't you think marketing something like this is wrong? Of course it should be banned. There should be no place in todays society for such things... it's disgusting. :\
 
Correct. You want to force people to do right, I want people to do right for themselves.
this is an interesting notion.

and while you may think it, i doubt you live by this.

which then completely undoes everything you say per say. If you arent willing to walk the walk, then we can all give the go ahead about idealisms.

but this isn't a dig, and i'm sure you are smart enough to understand this without it being discussed further.

i just found it interesting.
 
Norman you must have far more faith in people and their intellect/decision making ability than I do. The market does not cure all.
 
Norman you must have far more faith in people and their intellect/decision making ability than I do. The market does not cure all.
the thing is that his notion would ultimately lead back to one similar to this one if it was allowed to be implemented. society goes through swings and roundabouts with liberal and conservative view points.

the real truth is that neither option necessarily works in their extremeties.
 
in fairness after checking out the website, it's pretty normal. no bigger an issue than getting superman undies for your 4 year old boy personally

meh.
 
What a crazy concept. People caring about people they don't know. Giving blood or donating to a charity doesn't affect me personally either... but I do it. It's the right thing to do and it helps others.... and that in turn makes me feel good. I'm assuming you're a Batman fan with that Bane avatar. Do you think Batman's a socialist sap for going out there and trying to rescue strangers?

Lots of things don't affect me personally. Doesn't mean I can't care about them. It takes a village and all that.

Well, we know you support strawman arguments. :o

And you're making assumptions without knowing anything about us. Maybe we're all vegetarian, anti-Mormon, wikileaking hippies. :o



I would love to affirm that humankind is altruistic but I'm a skeptic, and I lost my faith in humanity long ago. Don't get me wrong, I believe that people do care to a certain extent but, in the end, I also believe we're too discomposed and/or closehanded.

Yes, yes I am. I'm a huge fan of Batman, but even Batman feels as if he is fighting a losing war. Human nature cannot be altered by force. The character has brought it up on several occasions in the comics and films, BUT that is not here nor there.

I know I am, but can you blame me? Most of the population in this country is apathetic to what is happening outside their own household. They only seem to care when a matter of contention happens to impact their daily lives.
 
in fairness after checking out the website, it's pretty normal. no bigger an issue than getting superman undies for your 4 year old boy personally

meh.

But there's no sexual connotations behind Superman undies.
 
there's no real sexual connotation to these garments either, they are just designer undies for kids.

the article is somewhat written in a radical manner to stir up trouble me thinks.

if anything the issue isn't with the garments rather the way one of the models look in her pics. if a different type of picture was taken, then it wouldn't be an issue.

i'm personally not a fan of kids wearing make up but then if i wanted to make that point, i would look at beauty pagents for younger children etc.

i would say this is on that level but no worse.
 
this is an interesting notion.

and while you may think it, i doubt you live by this.

which then completely undoes everything you say per say. If you arent willing to walk the walk, then we can all give the go ahead about idealisms.

but this isn't a dig, and i'm sure you are smart enough to understand this without it being discussed further.

i just found it interesting.

Why would you doubt I live this way? I mean the only way I could really live contrary to my belief would be if I was in government and told people how to live their life, or voted in a way that would indicate I want to tell people how to live their life, or boss around friends and girlfriends and tell them how to live their life. I don't do any of that.

In fact I work in government and stand by libertarian principles that are in no way popular and in fact serve to hinder the ease with which I may rise. Being in Washington and being a Ron Paul supporter is not easy. But its right. So I do it.

You are right, I am smart enough to understand how much hypocrisy can undermine a belief. Thats why I actively work every day to live life as I think it should be lived. Its worked well for me so far.

Norman you must have far more faith in people and their intellect/decision making ability than I do. The market does not cure all.

Its not a matter of faith in people. It's a matter of common sense.

You can't force people to be good, they have to chose to be good. Thats why drug laws don't work. Banning heroine and crack and cocaine, criminalizing prostitution, mandating religious practice - it doesn't change what people do.

You are right, the market doesn't "cure all", but that's not its purpose. Its not the purpose of economics to make people moral.

the thing is that his notion would ultimately lead back to one similar to this one if it was allowed to be implemented. society goes through swings and roundabouts with liberal and conservative view points.

the real truth is that neither option necessarily works in their extremeties.
It's not a matter of liberal or conservative. I could be called both.

Again, human interaction should be voluntary - and when that happens, the political leanings of government are irrelevant. People should use their own reason to make decisions, there is no good from having government bureaucrats make such decisions for them.

We shouldn't protect people from the consequences of their thoughts and actions.

there's no real sexual connotation to these garments either, they are just designer undies for kids.

the article is somewhat written in a radical manner to stir up trouble me thinks.

if anything the issue isn't with the garments rather the way one of the models look in her pics. if a different type of picture was taken, then it wouldn't be an issue.

i'm personally not a fan of kids wearing make up but then if i wanted to make that point, i would look at beauty pagents for younger children etc.

i would say this is on that level but no worse.

This further helps my case. These garments possess no threat to the soul of humanity, yet people want to treat them like a great evil. Its ridiculous.

Let people make decisions for themselves. Bad products with no appeal don't sell on the market by the mere fact they exist. There is no danger from a product no one wants.
 
Sorry, but my morality supercedes my dedication to free-market economics.

Nuclear warheads aren't sold legally either. If France started selling those to whoever wanted to buy them, should we allow it also? Because they have a Democratic right?

These days it seems it's so hip to prove how pro-free market you are, that people lose touch with simple morality... what's right and what's wrong. If some scumbags are denied the chance to buy toddler lingerie for whoever's child they're currently abusing, somehow I think Democracy will survive.

This is so clearly wrong, I don't see how anyone could defend it, vague constitutional argument or not.

God bless you:awesome:
 
This further helps my case. These garments possess no threat to the soul of humanity, yet people want to treat them like a great evil. Its ridiculous.

Let people make decisions for themselves. Bad products with no appeal don't sell on the market by the mere fact they exist. There is no danger from a product no one wants.

It's not people making decisions for THEMSELVES. It's people making decisions for their kids. Just like those southern kidie pageant bastards, only worse.

Your whole argument is a buttload of overly political blind dumbf**k, IMHO.
 
I don't see how that matters.

If the pedophile has a child to buy this lingerie for, then the existence of the lingerie is irrelevant - the pedophile has the kid. Damage done.

If the pedophile doesn't have a child to buy this lingerie for, then the existence of the lingerie is irrelevant - the pedophile can't put it to use. No damage done.

What are you worried about? That the pedo is going to get off on promotional pictures of the lingerie?
It's kind of like feeding the beast though when we ought to be trying to get rid of it.
 
You're ridiculously optimistic regarding the nature of humanity.


I think he's stated that it has nothing to do with being optimistic. It's just based on the human condition. No one wants to see four year olds in lingerie. Thus, Norman is positive that the idea will fail.

However, November Rain (who is obviously a single mother) looked at the photos and concluded that they weren't kiddie porn.

I guess it depends on the person.
 
People won't do "right" unless forced to. I would support an effort banning these things because people are ****** enough that this will not fail.
 
People won't do "right" unless forced to. I would support an effort banning these things because people are ****** enough that this will not fail.


You can't force people to do "right". People have their own versions of the definition. Einstein and Freud believed that each human psyche held a miniature universe with a different set of rules and laws. You can't force anyone to do anything unless you threaten or brainwash them. And last time I checked, that's a no-no.
 
You can force people to do things. All it takes is the right amount of social pressure.
 

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