General Motors

[Heretic]

I don't see why not. You paid for that service with your tax dollars. You do pay taxes, don't you?



At least they are willing to that that amount of risk. It seems like you are not. In fact GM realizes the risk to the point that they refuse to go bankrupt and are daring enough to go the the government to ask for assistance. That is the difference between you and them.



And what if you can get a loan to keep you afloat until the market improves? You would be kicking yourself for not doing that. Running out of money is not an excuse to go out of business. That is what loans are for. A company should and will go out of business if there is no longer a market for their products.

Yes, I pay taxes, and I get roads to drive on etc for my trouble. What I dont feel the need to do is leech any cash off of the system. The tax dollars that I pay that arent used by me can go to help the sick or those who cant work, or any number of other things...just dont give it to multimillionaires who will hide it away in their golden parachutes.

Asking the government for a bailout is not "daring" it is cowardly and an admission that you cant operate a business successfully. Why do you feel that going broke and putting your hand out is MORE daring that running a business on your own and actually turning a profit? I risk PLENTY on my business. With every major project I do, I risk a lot! One major failure on my part could really damage my ability to keep going (Im a small business owner without millions to back me up). So, I risk with every new project. However, I dont seem to have any of those big failures, even in this economy, because Im smart about how my business is run. I dont do stupid things and "daringly" beg for others to bail me out.

I am not opposed to some sort of guaranteed loans...but look at the bail outs we've given so far...the executives have screwed us each time by padding out their own wallets and then asking for more. Is there any reason to think that this time will be different? Heck, half the money for the wall street bail out is now being funneled to unrelated companies.

 

[Mikelus]

Do I turn to you, and put a Gun to your head, and force you to hand me your wallet, because I made a mistake and lost money? No, that's illegal.

And that is what your are argueing for. The Confisaction of wealth in order to benifit someone else.

The "evil" government is stealing my money!



Nobody loves paying taxes, but in any civilized country we have to finance services and infrastructures. If you hate paying taxes that much, then be coherent and move to where people pay a lot less, the third world. The US government is wasting billions on wars and playing cop of the world, instead of the welfare of its own citizens.
BTW, check your terrible spelling.

 

[Paradoxium]

I think that's the main issue here. In order to cut costs, they'll have to at least renegotiate terms with the UAW. If the UAW refuses to talk, they have to get out somehow. But if they declare bankruptcy, nobody will buy their cars anyway.

Hopefully the UAW is reasonable and will be willing to listen if GM gives an ultimatum: "Change the terms or everyone loses their jobs and gets nothing."


Nobody is going to die if GM goes under. Lots of people's lives will certainly suck, but nobody is going to die. (Unless they do it to themselves in despair, but there's only so much we can do it about that...)

I do support people keeping their jobs and suppliers keeping their businesses, but they cannot get a bailout and then continue running their business like nothing's happened. Something has to change, and change big.


I figured:



Car manufacturing, IMO, hasn't been a cornerstone of the American economy since the technology boom. Our greatest asset is technology - Microsoft, Apple, Google, among many others. Now if either of those went down, then I'd certainly pay more attention.

What you said is reasonable but we are dealing with an unreasonable entity. Bedding the UAW is like crossing the Rubicon: you can't turn back afterward. They might be fine with re-negotiations since GM has more leverage, but when things get a bit better... they will sing a different song. If you can count on anything, that is greed.

Besides there is no absolute proof that if they declare bankruptcy no one will buy from them. In the short term, their sales are going to dip for sure. They will have to re-earn their customers and reputation and it could takes years before there is a real net profit. But if there is a chance they can turn into something sustainable, so be it. This is what risks are all about, because there is no easy choice. You have to ask yourself, do you think people will be hot on GM after this debacle anyways?

 

[dnno1]

Yes, I pay taxes, and I get roads to drive on etc for my trouble. What I dont feel the need to do is leech any cash off of the system. The tax dollars that I pay that arent used by me can go to help the sick or those who cant work, or any number of other things...just dont give it to multimillionaires who will hide it away in their golden parachutes.

I am not going to force you to take advantage of the services that the government provides you. I just want you to know that they are there and you as a citizen are entitled to them (note the word entitled). I don't think that the money will necessarily be going to golden parachutes. There are more than likely other priorities that need to be addressed before that happens.

Asking the government for a bailout is not "daring" it is cowardly and an admission that you cant operate a business successfully. Why do you feel that going broke and putting your hand out is MORE daring that running a business on your own and actually turning a profit? I risk PLENTY on my business. With every major project I do, I risk a lot! One major failure on my part could really damage my ability to keep going (Im a small business owner without millions to back me up). So, I risk with every new project. However, I dont seem to have any of those big failures, even in this economy, because Im smart about how my business is run. I dont do stupid things and "daringly" beg for others to bail me out.

I think it would be more cowardly to just take the money and run and while leaving the country in ruin. No, going public and admitting your failures is a brave thing and not too many people are willing to do that. I wouldn't call that cowardice.

I am not opposed to some sort of guaranteed loans...but look at the bail outs we've given so far...the executives have screwed us each time by padding out their own wallets and then asking for more. Is there any reason to think that this time will be different? Heck, half the money for the wall street bail out is now being funneled to unrelated companies.

That will more than likely be what will happen in the long run. The $25 billion is not enough (I figure GM will need $250 billion alone to help them out) and they will need and prefer some kind of guaranteed financing for the next couple of years.

 

[Malice]

Here is a look at Fords Balance Sheet:
Total Assets 265,297,000 282,913,000 279,264,000 276,163,000Total

Liabilities 266,980,000 275,802,000 273,636,000 275,000,000

Ford is looking FAR better than GM from the last quarterly statement....

 

[Heretic]

I GUARANTEE you, if we bail out GM, the heads of the company will not cut their own pay one cent, and instead will give themselves bonuses for being so brave and daring to ask for taxpayer help. The company will not turn around any time soon, yet the execs pay will go up. In a few years they'll come back for more money...and with a huge portion of the economy at stake, we will feel compelled to give them more.
You may be okay with that, but i am not.

 

[Paradoxium]

Of the Big Three right now in terms of survivability: Ford > Chrysler > GM

That's roughly how it looks like. Ford has a bit more cushion since they did save a little for a rainy day. Ford has the best chance of the big three, they need to get their act together. Spend less time and money lobbying and more time on restructuring the cards they are dealt with.

 

[Paradoxium]

Anyone good with the laws and its loopholes? Maybe there is an alternative to bankruptcy in terms of getting out of bed with the UAW.

edit: I want to add that two years ago was one of the biggest car markets ever. AND GM could not make a profit then, what makes anyone think they can sustain through a recession with a bailout?

 

[Heretic]

Anyone good with the laws and its loopholes? Maybe there is an alternative to bankruptcy in terms of getting out of bed with the UAW.

edit: I want to add that two years ago was one of the biggest car markets ever. AND GM could not make a profit then, what makes anyone think they can sustain through a recession with a bailout?

If we give GM billions of dollars then maybe in 10 years there will be an EVEN MORE BETTERER car market than the best ever, and then I'm sure theyd make a profit!

 

[Anita18]

A threat to our economy is a threat to the lifestyles and liberties that we have. It is in the governments best interest and obligations to counter that.

Why is a threat to our economy a thread to our liberties? I think that assuming that an economic downturn will automatically equate to societal apocalypse is really reaching. And I thought I was a cynic...

And a threat to our lifestyles isn't necessarily a bad thing, if it teaches you how to adjust accordingly to the changing times. My dad likes to brag about how he came here to the US with nothing but $500 in his pocket and a yearning to learn graduate-level computer programming at a time where only 30 CS PhDs graduated every year. And he's done pretty well for himself.

If you mean that a threat to our lifestyles would further affect the economy negatively, then yes that will happen, since our economy is based on a consumer culture. But I don't think it should be the government's obligation to get us to buy more crap we don't need.

Besides there is no absolute proof that if they declare bankruptcy no one will buy from them. In the short term, their sales are going to dip for sure. They will have to re-earn their customers and reputation and it could takes years before there is a real net profit. But if there is a chance they can turn into something sustainable, so be it. This is what risks are all about, because there is no easy choice. You have to ask yourself, do you think people will be hot on GM after this debacle anyways?

Has anyone been hot on GM in the past few years?

 

[BlackLantern]

Not really....any investor with half a brain has been warning people away from GM for a while now

 

[SuBe]

The "evil" government is stealing my money!



Nobody loves paying taxes, but in any civilized country we have to finance services and infrastructures. If you hate paying taxes that much, then be coherent and move to where people pay a lot less, the third world. The US government is wasting billions on wars and playing cop of the world, instead of the welfare of its own citizens.
BTW, check your terrible spelling.

When the Constitution was written, and the Federal Government was established, Taxation was only meant for 3 things. To establish funds for the Protection from Threats (Police & Military), Protection from Oppression (Bill of Rights & Courts), Protection from Theft (All of the Above), when you pervert any of the three, you begin down the road of Tyrrany. It is now written into the Law, that theft is ok. But, some believe that it is alright to allow the Government to Steal from you. It is not so.

And you can get off the Spelling, they are simple mistakes. You don't need to be rude.

 

[dnno1]

Why is a threat to our economy a thread to our liberties? I think that assuming that an economic downturn will automatically equate to societal apocalypse is really reaching. And I thought I was a cynic...

The Great Depression of the 1930's

I think there was a quote by George Santayana that went "Those who fail to heed the course of history are destined to repeat it"

And a threat to our lifestyles isn't necessarily a bad thing, if it teaches you how to adjust accordingly to the changing times. My dad likes to brag about how he came here to the US with nothing but $500 in his pocket and a yearning to learn graduate-level computer programming at a time where only 30 CS PhDs graduated every year. And he's done pretty well for himself.

I think times of opportunity are not a threat to or lifestyles. If there was a threat as such your dad probably wouldn't have come here. I am certain that he came because there was.

If you mean that a threat to our lifestyles would further affect the economy negatively, then yes that will happen, since our economy is based on a consumer culture. But I don't think it should be the government's obligation to get us to buy more crap we don't need.

No, I mean a further negative turn in the economy will lead to a further threat to our lifestyles (loss of job, less money in your pocket, less happiness).

 

[dnno1]

When the Constitution was written, and the Federal Government was established, Taxation was only meant for 3 things. To establish funds for the Protection from Threats (Police & Military), Protection from Oppression (Bill of Rights & Courts), Protection from Theft (All of the Above), when you pervert any of the three, you begin down the road of Tyrrany. It is now written into the Law, that theft is ok. But, some believe that it is alright to allow the Government to Steal from you. It is not so.

And you can get off the Spelling, they are simple mistakes. You don't need to be rude.

Paying taxes is your civic duty and behind those taxes there are services offered to it's citizenry. Only when there there is no representation behind the taxes is it truly a crime and I don't see that going on here.

 

[Paradoxium]

Technology and innovation will make it more tolerable than the Depression of the 30s. But I think if you plan to have a good life sooner, you are better off moving out of America. Despite a prolonged recession or depression the world will recover much more quickly than America.

China has a long way to go but their dumping of US Treasuries and growing their infrastructure is the right direction. The US dollar is going to be in the pits. The Chinese are using money they saved to invest, the Americans are using money they are borrowing. It's no surprise the Saudi bought 2.5 billion in gold in the last two weeks. They are preparing.

 

[SuBe]

Paying taxes is your civic duty and behind those taxes there are services offered to it's citizenry. Only when there there is no representation behind the taxes is it truly a crime and I don't see that going on here.

It is a "crime" against the Three Tennets, Taxation and Redistrubution for anything other than for Preservation of Life, Liberty, and Property are against the original intent of the Constitution.

Yes, it would SUCK if these corporations fail. If people are laid off. But, that is the outcome of making bad decisions, and I see the everlasting effects of Oppression, over-Taxation, and loss of Economic Liberty from the Hands of Government to be worse.

 

[Anita18]

The Great Depression of the 1930's

And even then, there wasn't looting in the streets or any sort of rampant lawlessness. Life sucked, yes, but it wasn't an "apocalypse."

Technology and innovation will make it more tolerable than the Depression of the 30s. But I think if you plan to have a good life sooner, you are better off moving out of America.

We actually don't pay all that much in taxes compared to other developed countries, you know. And people get up in arms about the taxes they already pay now.

 

[SuBe]

We actually don't pay all that much in taxes compared to other developed countries, you know. And people get up in arms about the taxes they already pay now.

Some people pay upwards to 70-90% of their Income in Taxes, and they are told they don't pay their fair Share. When you add up all the Taxes, from City, State, Federal, and Embedded Corporate Taxes you would be surprised that you don't keep as much as you earn.

 

[BlackLantern]

Everyone wants steak, no one wants to slaughter the cow....

 

[SuBe]

Everyone wants steak, no one wants to slaughter the cow....

I'll do it!

 

[Anita18]

Some people pay upwards to 70-90% of their Income in Taxes, and they are told they don't pay their fair Share. When you add up all the Taxes, from City, State, Federal, and Embedded Corporate Taxes you would be surprised that you don't keep as much as you earn.

Depends on their tax bracket, of course. My parents like to be like "ZOMG taxes!" but they still pay under 40% of their income in total taxes.

I know some people who live in Canada, and they just had some taxes raised. The land transfer tax in Ontario is a ridiculous amount.

 

[Motown Marvel]

i know its not entirely productive to be looking at this on a personal level: but having talked to my dad today, who has worked hard and faithfully for GM for almost 4 decades, if GM isnt saved in the next 3 months his job and retirement package is gone.

 

[SuBe]

Depends on their tax bracket, of course. My parents like to be like "ZOMG taxes!" but they still pay under 40% of their income in total taxes.

I know some people who live in Canada, and they just had some taxes raised. The land transfer tax in Ontario is a ridiculous amount.

Lets assume you are your parents, you pull in $100,000 a year total. It's you, your spouse, your kid, your car and your home. Alread, off the Bat, you are paying 33% in income Taxes alone. There goes $33,333, leaving your with $77,777. Then, you have FICA Taxes (Social Security, etc) of 6.5%. There goes $5,055.50. Leaving you $72,721.50. Then, you have your mortage, let's say it's $1000 a month. That leaves you with $60,721.50. Now, you also have your regular grocery bills, that's about $400 a month. Leaving you with $54.721.50.

Then, you have your car, with the State Licensing Fee, of about $100, so you now have $54,621.50. Oh, crap, you forgot about State and City Taxes, State Taxes about about 5%, but that's on what you earned, not what wealth you have, so there goes another $5,000, leaving you $49,621.50. And a City tax of 3%. So, there goes another $3000 bucks. Leaving you with $46,621.50. AND there's Property Tax. Which is $3000 a year on your $180,000 home. So, we are down to what? $43,621.50.

Now, you have cable and cell phone bills, $100 a month for Cable and Internet, leaving you with $42421, and $100 a month for that Family Plan Cell phone Bill. $41.221.

Then, $350 a month for those car payments, $4200 a year. Down to $37,021. Electric, that $75 a month, $900. Leaving $36,121. Then Gas for the car, $25 a week. Thats $1300 a year. Leaving you with $34821.

Crap, Anita is going to College? That's how much again?

And we still have home owners insurance, Car Insurance, Jr's School Fees, Anita's College Books, the Family dog to take care of and feed. And, we even will have to pay H&R Block to file our taxes. Then, we have membership fees at CostCo.

That $100,000 a year income doesn't look so hot now does it?

 

[Paradoxium]

We actually don't pay all that much in taxes compared to other developed countries, you know. And people get up in arms about the taxes they already pay now.

I am not too concerned with taxes. There is a bit more to the story....

i know its not entirely productive to be looking at this on a personal level: but having talked to my dad today, who has worked hard and faithfully for GM for almost 4 decades, if GM isnt saved in the next 3 months his job and retirement package is gone.

1. You should operate on worse case scenario and prepare as if it already happened.

2. Even if your dad retains his retirement, the government is still debasing the value of the dollar. By getting the very bailout you want, the either borrow more (not a lot of lenders nowdays) and/or pump phantom money into the system. In other words, more phantom cash => less value. In essence everyone's saving gets debased in the long term for a short term fix. Don't forget the dumping of US Treasuries by China recently.

So what does this ultimately mean? Your dad probably won't get to retire or retire for long even if he gets his package. Not when the USD is worth so little. Food prices are going to up along with the cost standard of living. Just prepare and be prudent. Or you could take the Lastsunrise route and do nothing, relax and ignore it like everything will be fine and expect someone to fix your problems.

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE4A58RZ20081106

 

[Motown Marvel]

theres talk on the news right now about possibly appointing an "auto czar".