General Motors

[Spider-Bite]

The problem is, though, there is no guarantee these companies will actually abide by the regulations set forth by Congress. Nor is there any guarantee they will adhere to those standards soon enough to make much of a financial impact. It's like betting a Bentley on whether Mr. Jenkins's 1962 jalopy will make it up Mount McKinley without falling to pieces; it doesn't make sense business-wise for the government to pour money into a failing business when it is most likely going to fail regardless of the bailout.

The government can pass laws with very stiff penalties for not abiding by them.

Doubtful. The Japanese automobile companies are not going to merge because then there would be little competition in Japan.

That would actually be their whole reason for merging. Kind of like how banks are buying other banks right now.

Japan, by the way, has similar monopoly laws as the United States and forbids a single company from dominating the market, so that makes such integration legally impossible.

I was thinking about that when I wrote the other post. I wasn't sure if they had simmiliar laws or not, although I figured they probably did. However that is not necessarily a gurantee it wont happen. I'm sure courruption is just as rampant in Japan as it is here.

And you notice here in America that despite our monopoly laws, you only have one option to buy your electricity from, unless your wealthy enough to buy solar panels. I got we energies and nobody else to choose from.

You have a good counter argument however we can't just sit by and let all these corporations go bankrupt, or were all gonna be screwed. We might end up being screwed anyways, but at least their is a chance we wont be. Plus six million lost jobs? Too dangerous and too unacceptable.

 

[The Senator]

The government can pass laws with very stiff penalties for not abiding by them.

Do you honestly think that any bailout bill is going to feature even the slightest penalty? This package is going to be complete with incentives, but no repercussions; after all, we come from a country where punishing businesses for engaging in corrupt or even questionable activities is considered unpatriotic (or socialist, depending on which blog you read).

That's how it always has been. When the Clean Air Act was updated in 1990, Congress steered away from applying harsh standards to corporations which emitted excessive amounts of CO2, and instead included "cap and trade" programs which would benefit those corporations financially instead. Twenty years later, CO2 pollution is still a huge problem, yet businesses are too afraid that they will lose the financial crutches they've been leaning on-- thanks to the government.

This bailout will not feature any sort of repercussions for environmentally degrading or financially unstable business practices like Barack Obama apparently wants. It will be filled to the brim with financial benefits for the fat cats running the show, and won't feature a single line which punishes the automobile manufacturers for their failures.

I have faith in that one, because the fundraising efforts of nearly one third of the members of Congress depends on it.

That would actually be their whole reason for merging. Kind of like how banks are buying other banks right now.

But the Japanese manufacturers don't have a real reason to buy up their competitors, considering most Japanese car companies are successful domestically and abroad. Few competitors are going to want to consolidate anyway.

I was thinking about that when I wrote the other post. I wasn't sure if they had simmiliar laws or not, although I figured they probably did. However that is not necessarily a gurantee it wont happen. I'm sure courruption is just as rampant in Japan as it is here.

Actually, I believe Japan ranks in the top 10 for "least corrupt governments" according to a recent study... The United States was somewhere in the twenties...

And you notice here in America that despite our monopoly laws, you only have one option to buy your electricity from, unless your wealthy enough to buy solar panels. I got we energies and nobody else to choose from.

You have a good counter argument however we can't just sit by and let all these corporations go bankrupt, or were all gonna be screwed. We might end up being screwed anyways, but at least their is a chance we wont be. Plus six million lost jobs? Too dangerous and too unacceptable.

I beg to differ. What is too dangerous and unacceptable is for U.S. car companies to expect us to bail them out with more magic money we don't have, despite the fact that they have had YEARS to change their business practices in order to compete with foreign manufacturers. They have had designs on the table they were too hesitant to produce, because they felt the gas guzzlers they had been promoting would make more money in the long run. They didn't foresee an oil crisis (because most of these companies work hand in hand with the oil companies, so I'm sure a rosy picture was painted for them), they didn't foresee the green movement (which is strange considering it began to blossom again four years ago), and they didn't hire new talent which was aware of the changing business environment these companies were facing.

No amount of money will be able to solve the true problems these companies face: A lack of innovation, and a lack of incentive for Americans to purchase vehicles domestically. I feel sorry for the people who will lose their jobs, I truly do... but it is better for them to face the reality of the situation now, than to get their hopes up only for them to lose their jobs anyway within the next year or so...

 

[Spider-Bite]

Do you honestly think that any bailout bill is going to feature even the slightest penalty? This package is going to be complete with incentives, but no repercussions; after all, we come from a country where punishing businesses for engaging in corrupt or even questionable activities is considered unpatriotic (or socialist, depending on which blog you read).

That's how it always has been. When the Clean Air Act was updated in 1990, Congress steered away from applying harsh standards to corporations which emitted excessive amounts of CO2, and instead included "cap and trade" programs which would benefit those corporations financially instead. Twenty years later, CO2 pollution is still a huge problem, yet businesses are too afraid that they will lose the financial crutches they've been leaning on-- thanks to the government.

This bailout will not feature any sort of repercussions for environmentally degrading or financially unstable business practices like Barack Obama apparently wants. It will be filled to the brim with financial benefits for the fat cats running the show, and won't feature a single line which punishes the automobile manufacturers for their failures.

I have faith in that one, because the fundraising efforts of nearly one third of the members of Congress depends on it.



But the Japanese manufacturers don't have a real reason to buy up their competitors, considering most Japanese car companies are successful domestically and abroad. Few competitors are going to want to consolidate anyway.



Actually, I believe Japan ranks in the top 10 for "least corrupt governments" according to a recent study... The United States was somewhere in the twenties...



I beg to differ. What is too dangerous and unacceptable is for U.S. car companies to expect us to bail them out with more magic money we don't have, despite the fact that they have had YEARS to change their business practices in order to compete with foreign manufacturers. They have had designs on the table they were too hesitant to produce, because they felt the gas guzzlers they had been promoting would make more money in the long run. They didn't foresee an oil crisis (because most of these companies work hand in hand with the oil companies, so I'm sure a rosy picture was painted for them), they didn't foresee the green movement (which is strange considering it began to blossom again four years ago), and they didn't hire new talent which was aware of the changing business environment these companies were facing.

No amount of money will be able to solve the true problems these companies face: A lack of innovation, and a lack of incentive for Americans to purchase vehicles domestically. I feel sorry for the people who will lose their jobs, I truly do... but it is better for them to face the reality of the situation now, than to get their hopes up only for them to lose their jobs anyway within the next year or so...

Well you've raised some doubts. I'd like to add that political pressure, and there is a ton of it right now, might force the government to put repurcussions in the bills. but not necessarily.

to make sure I am presenting my beliefs accurately I'd also like to say that I am not 100% committed to these bail outs. I don't have this strong level of confidence. I'm nervous about it all as most of us are.

If I was in Obama's position what I'd do is offer the country's 100 most respected public finance economists each a hundred million dollars a year to be locked away for the next three years. I'd make sure they all have the necessary data so that they can inform me, while preventing other contact from the outside world so that they their advice would be less likely to be corrupted. I'd also force them to pull all of their money out of the stock market first. It can't be much, because public finance enomists aren't paid that much anyways. I'd do that because their own investments would effect their advice.

I'd basically go by whatever they tell me as for how to best protect the middle class and lower class. I could give a rat's ass about the wealthy. Their only purpose in this economy as far as I'm concerned is to pay taxes and give people jobs, so yeah we need them, but their happiness is not a priority to me. I'd throw em under a bus if I thought it was gonna help.

 

[hippie_hunter]

And you notice here in America that despite our monopoly laws, you only have one option to buy your electricity from, unless your wealthy enough to buy solar panels. I got we energies and nobody else to choose from.

Actually certain monopolies are allowed such as phone companies, electric companies, cable companies, professional sports organizations, etc.

 

[SuBe]

Economists largely agreed that Mike Huckabee's fair tax plan would shift the blance of wealth in this country in favor of the wealthy. Based on that I say it's a bad idea.

Your assuming that your right and the experts are wrong. These types of ignorance bubbles, where you reject outside information as false, even when it comes from people more qualifed than you, are what cost the republican party their power.

Can you please provide studies that show that? I have a letter Co-Signed by 80 well known economists agreeing with the Tax Plan. I can Post Study after Study, showing that this is correct.

Can you do the same?

 

[Addendum]

If I was in Obama's position what I'd do is offer the country's 100 most respected public finance economists each a hundred million dollars a year to be locked away for the next three years.

And where exactly would you get that money? Print more?

 

[Kelly]

Damn, Wall Street didn't like what Pelosi had to say today.....-679.59 drop today.......

 

[Kelly]

ooops....

 

[SuBe]

I love your Jefferson Quote Kel.

 

[Kelly]

I love your Jefferson Quote Kel.

Thank you very much, I hope that we do not forget the words of our forefathers.

 

[SuBe]

Thank you very much, I hope that we do not forget the words of our forefathers.

There's an article I found that you may like, (http://jim.com/bastiat.htm).

The Law by Frederic Bastiat, he wasn't a founding father, but he was a follower of the Enlightenment Movement. It's a great read.

 

[Kelly]

There's an article I found that you may like, (http://jim.com/bastiat.htm).

The Law by Frederic Bastiat, he wasn't a founding father, but he was a follower of the Enlightenment Movement. It's a great read.

ooooh.....a modern day John Locke

 

[ScottyBBadd]

What they need to do, is approach the UAW Union and simply say....sorry...we can't pay anymore.

Unions are killing us....which is the absolute truth.

Could not have said it any better myself.

 

[SuBe]

ooooh.....a modern day John Locke

It was written 178 years ago. But, the United States was still a baby at the time.

 

[Kelly]

It was written 178 years ago. But, the United States was still a baby at the time.

Sorry, didn't read your first post closely enough.....

And yes, a mere baby......didn't truly hit its teens until after the Civil War......IMHO.

 

[Paradoxium]

Props to Ford.

They might not need a bailout afterall - just an "emergency line" which they probably won't use. If they keep their word, I give them credit for this and possibly do business with them down the line.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081202/meltdown_autos.html

GM on the other hand can go to hell t:

 

[Kelly]

Props to Ford.

They might not need a bailout afterall - just an "emergency line" which they probably won't use. If they keep their word, I give them credit for this and possibly do business with them down the line.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081202/meltdown_autos.html

GM on the other hand can go to hell t:

My last 3 cars have been Fords.....and my "hats off" to my governor for not going to Washington to beg for money....

 

[chaseter]

Good job Ford...for now.

 

[Anita18]

Just got an email from Michael Moore about his opinion of the auto bailout...and it started with his sob story about his 4-year-old Chrysler recently needing $1400 in repairs and still not starting and generally being a hunk of metal and flashing dashboard warning lights. It's quite detailed for the typical "American cars are crap" kind of opinion.

What's with my 12-year-old Chevrolet sedan that gets 30mpg highway and has never broken down or given me any problems aside from some peeling paint? Even my mom told me that the car I drive has been the family car with the least problems, a collection of which included an old Toyota Corolla that made my dad swear off Japanese cars for almost 10 years. (It was also a boycott against Japanese products because he's still got a grudge for what they did in WWII. He's turned around recently with a new Camry.) Maybe my magic touch goes beyond my laboratory job...

But seriously? Are GM cars really that crappy? Is it a downright miracle that mine still works fine?

 

[Paradoxium]

Just got an email from Michael Moore about his opinion of the auto bailout...and it started with his sob story about his 4-year-old Chrysler recently needing $1400 in repairs and still not starting and generally being a hunk of metal and flashing dashboard warning lights. It's quite detailed for the typical "American cars are crap" kind of opinion.

What's with my 12-year-old Chevrolet sedan that gets 30mpg highway and has never broken down or given me any problems aside from some peeling paint? Even my mom told me that the car I drive has been the family car with the least problems, a collection of which included an old Toyota Corolla that made my dad swear off Japanese cars for almost 10 years. (It was also a boycott against Japanese products because he's still got a grudge for what they did in WWII. He's turned around recently with a new Camry.) Maybe my magic touch goes beyond my laboratory job...

But seriously? Are GM cars really that crappy? Is it a downright miracle that mine still works fine?

A number of cars made in the mid-late 90s are better than the crap today. Probably has something to do with the choice of materials and parts. It's no surprise that a number of car salesmen prefer to drive Lexus and BMWs of that era over the current ones.

People can always look into European cars. European Fords I hear are superior to their American counterparts.

 

[Motown Marvel]

But seriously? Are GM cars really that crappy? Is it a downright miracle that mine still works fine?

i have a '99 pontiac sunfire and i've never had a single problem with it.

 

[Malice]

Just got an email from Michael Moore about his opinion of the auto bailout...

Moore is an idiot

 

[Anita18]

Moore is an idiot

The email did say that he was in favor of the government simply buying GM outright, since you could buy up all of its stock for $3 billion and forget this whole $25-$35 billion bailout business.

Besides the whole government-owning-companies-ZOMG-socialism thing, he does have a point.

 

[Addendum]

The government owning a company? I'm not too keen about.

But I do like his idea regarding what GM should build.

 

[BlackLantern]

I say the government should buy GM then auction off the pieces to any buyers