generalized costume complaints

[Chris Wallace]

Let's hope.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I have come across some TRULY absurd costume complaints lately. I've tried to be objective in the idea that "comic accurate/faithful" and "looks cool onscreen" don't have to be mutually exclusive. But when I find people complaining about the design of the web in the middle of Spider-Man's mask, I gotta say WTF.

 

[The Overlord]

What about villain costumes? How faithful do they have to be? Red Skull started off wearing a green jump suit, but I think everything would agree that an SS uniform is more scary then a green jump suit. Dr. Octopus wore a green and yellow jump suit at first and it looked bad, he looked way better in a trench coat or business suit.

Whiplash wore a different costume in the movies then the one from the comics, but frankly the costume in the comics kinda sucked, so the movie costume was an improvement. DCUA often made costume improvements to some villains as well, like Toyman.

 

[The Question]

What about villain costumes? How faithful do they have to be? Red Skull started off wearing a green jump suit, but I think everything would agree that an SS uniform is more scary then a green jump suit.

I don't think it's more scary. But it is more visually interesting and period-acruate.

 

[The Overlord]

I don't think it's more scary. But it is more visually interesting and period-acruate.

How is an green jump suit as scary as SS uniform? An SS uniform actually represents the evil of the Nazi regime, that's what foot soldiers of the Reich wore while they killed millions on and off battle field, how does a green jump suit compared to that? A green jump suit represents nothing, that's why an SS costume is a million times scarier, represents a real historical evil, the green jump suit can't compare. Plus I think almost everyone would find a black military uniform, with deathhead pins and an Nazi arm band more scary then a green jump suit. How is the green jump suit scary?

 

[roach]

does it matter the costume or what the character does that makes him scary...Red Skull could be in a tu tu and lop peoples head off and I'd think that would be pretty scary...meanwhile Sgt Shultz from Hogan's Heroes wears a german uniform and is far fromscary

 

[The Overlord]

does it matter the costume or what the character does that makes him scary...Red Skull could be in a tu tu and lop peoples head off and I'd think that would be pretty scary...meanwhile Sgt Shultz from Hogan's Heroes wears a german uniform and is far fromscary

Would Indiana Jones have worked as well if instead of military uniforms, all the Nazis were wearing green jump suits? I think overall an SS uniform is far more frightening then a green jump suit.

 

[Chris Wallace]

It's more appropriate, but not necessarily scary.

 

[roach]

again its not the costume but what the character does that makes it scary...is Ronald Mcdonald scary...no but the clown from It scares the piss out of me.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Maybe to someone who's generally afraid of clowns Ronald would be scary. My ex is severely arachnophobic, & she can't stand to look at Spider-Man's symbol.

 

[roach]

my ex sister in law is so afraid of snakes that she cant even bear to look at them...I used to take my belt off and wiggle it around on the floor while making snake noises.....wow no wonder they got a divorce

 

[The Question]

How is an green jump suit as scary as SS uniform? An SS uniform actually represents the evil of the Nazi regime, that's what foot soldiers of the Reich wore while they killed millions on and off battle field, how does a green jump suit compared to that? A green jump suit represents nothing, that's why an SS costume is a million times scarier, represents a real historical evil, the green jump suit can't compare. Plus I think almost everyone would find a black military uniform, with deathhead pins and an Nazi arm band more scary then a green jump suit. How is the green jump suit scary?

I didn't say the green jump suit was scary. I said I didn't think the SS uniform was more scary. I don't find Nazi uniforms frightening at all. I don't usually find clothing to be frightening in general. I find real life Nazis frightening, but that's because of what they do, not what they wear. I do think that the SS uniform is more visually interesting and accurate for the character (at least in stories set during the war), so I do think it's a better choice than the green.

 

[The Overlord]

again its not the costume but what the character does that makes it scary...is Ronald Mcdonald scary...no but the clown from It scares the piss out of me.

No the creature from IT is unintentionally hilarious:

http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/thatguywiththeglasses/nostalgia-critic/28239-it

Anyway this is quibbling and doesn't undermine my main point, that some villains have bad costumes that wouldn't translate to the screen. Frankly I never thought Whiplash's costume was that good, its okay, but I don't think it would have translated well to live action and I like the way Whiplash looked in the movie.

The only villain costumes that were changed and didn't work was Green Goblin, it looked pretty silly and needed some purple to break up the color scheme and Harry's goblin costume, which made him look like a punk surfer.

 

[The Question]

The only villain costumes that were changed and didn't work was Green Goblin, it looked pretty silly and needed some purple to break up the color scheme and Harry's goblin costume, which made him look like a punk surfer.

I'm not fond of Bullseye's look from the film. It was more over the top than his comic costume, I think. He looked like a gangster from a 70s blacksploitation movie. I think something much more reserved, like a relatively tight fitting all black outfit, fits the character better. A mask wouldn't have hurt either, as masks are a practical acessory for professional assassins (albeit not in every situation). The same mask as the one he wears in the comic, maybe not, but a balaclava would have worked.

In fact, I think if they had been planning ahead with the Daredevil films, this would have made a lot of sense. First film, Kingpin is the big bad, Bullseye is his chief enforcer, just the the movie we had. I'd actually downplay Bullseye's role, give him a much smaller part and put more focus on Fisk. In the film, Bullseye wears a tight fitting black turtleneck, black gloves, black pants, black boots, and a black balaclava when he's on a job and needs to hide his face, although he's only wear it occasionally in the film. During the film, he fights Daredevil on Fisk's behalf, gets beated, and then Daredevil goes on to fight The Kingpin. In the sequel, Bullseye is the main villain, having become obsessed with Daredevil, as Daredevil is not only the first contract je's ever failed, but the first to turn around and hand him his teeth. Because of his obsession, he adds more costume-y elements to his outift from the first film, making something that more closely resembles his costume from the comics, as he takes on the role of the supervillain to Daredevil's superhero, and proceeds to play serial killer mind games with him.

 

[The Question]

Y'know, overall, that is a problem I have with costumes, especially villain costumes. They don't use them as thematic elements as effectively as the could. The costuming of a villain can reflect their developement as a character, or themes within the story. Spider-Man kind of tried for that with The Green Goblin, but ended up half assing it. The Dark Knight did a decent job of that with The Joker and his suit and make up, though.

 

[블라스]

Jeez, Tom Welling looks like such a ***.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I would say that overall, JOker is probably the most faithfully dressed villain we've had thus far. Him and Venom. Hollywood seems more afraid to go all out with villain costumes than with the heroes. Like audiences won't believe a homocidal maniac would dress like a nut? Or how about the Brotherhood-the only one wearing anything even REMOTELY costume-like is Magneto*. It's funny because this is a group of people who have rejected humanity's standards of how to live, rejected the names that their human parents gave them-is it really that big a stretch that they would show a little more disregard for our fashion guidelines?



*Please don't think I'm endorsing the idea of putting tights & trunks on a 60+ year-old man. I'm talking more in principle.

 

[The Overlord]

I would say that overall, JOker is probably the most faithfully dressed villain we've had thus far. Him and Venom. Hollywood seems more afraid to go all out with villain costumes than with the heroes. Like audiences won't believe a homocidal maniac would dress like a nut? Or how about the Brotherhood-the only one wearing anything even REMOTELY costume-like is Magneto*. It's funny because this is a group of people who have rejected humanity's standards of how to live, rejected the names that their human parents gave them-is it really that big a stretch that they would show a little more disregard for our fashion guidelines?



*Please don't think I'm endorsing the idea of putting tights & trunks on a 60+ year-old man. I'm talking more in principle.

Except I never liked Sabertooth's comic costume, its not very menacing or stylish or anything, it just looks garish, the furry collar he wears makes him look like a camp gay aging European hipster, not a scary assassin or something. Also Toad's Silver Age costume pretty well sucked too. Just because a costume is in the comics, doesn't make it good. Most of the Brotherhood were fashion disasters. Though I liked Mystique's white dress from the comics, I don't if they couldn't have given it to her in the movie due to the make up job, but I kinda missed it.

Whether a villain's costume be changed or changed, depends on how iconic and stylish it looks like. Dr. Doom has a stylish and iconic look, his costume should stay more or less the same, Whiplash's costume was neither, so frankly there is more room to change it.

 

[The Question]

But iconic and stylish are incredibly subjective terms. They both depend heavily on the person's aesthetic tastes. I think the deciding factor in wether or not a costume should be changed really just comes down to how practical it would be to recreate it and how well the character getting it would work into the story

 

[The Overlord]

But iconic and stylish are incredibly subjective terms. They both depend heavily on the person's aesthetic tastes. I think the deciding factor in wether or not a costume should be changed really just comes down to how practical it would be to recreate it and how well the character getting it would work into the story

Perhaps but I would wager most people would find Dr. Doom's costume more striking, iconic and generally more aesthetically pleasing then Saberthooth's or Toad's costume were. I still don't see why Sabertooth wears that fur collar, it looks really laughable and garish. Frankly even the cartoons based on comics often change the costume of some of the B-list villains, because the costume either flat out sucks or it has one or two things with it that holds it back. BTAS changed Clock King's costume, the new Avengers cartoon changed Grim Reaper's costume and Superman the Animated Series changed Toyman's costume, all for the better I think.

I mean what is better, this:

http://images.wikia.com/greenarrow/images/c/c3/Clockking.jpg

Or this:

http://images.wikia.com/villains/images/1/13/Clock_King.jpg

I think with some villains there is some room for improvement with costumes.

 

[The Question]

Perhaps but I would wager most people would find Dr. Doom's costume more striking, iconic and generally more aesthetically pleasing then Saberthooth's or Toad's costume were. I still don't see why Sabertooth wears that fur collar, it looks really laughable and garish. Frankly even the cartoons based on comics often change the costume of some of the B-list villains, because the costume either flat out sucks or it has one or two things with it that holds it back. BTAS changed Clock King's costume, the new Avengers cartoon changed Grim Reaper's costume and Superman the Animated Series changed Toyman's costume, all for the better I think.

I mean what is better, this:

http://images.wikia.com/greenarrow/images/c/c3/Clockking.jpg

Or this:

http://images.wikia.com/villains/images/1/13/Clock_King.jpg

I think with some villains there is some room for improvement with costumes.

Honestly, I've never been that impressed by Doom's look. Other than the mask (which is awesome), his over all look is kind of plain and generic. There isn't anything wrong with it, but I personally could see areas where I think it could be improved.

Which is my point. Aesthetics are subjective. And while, yes, there are certain aesthetics that the vast majority of people dislike, the other thing about aesthetics is that changes to make them more appealing don't have to be drastic. In fact they can be very subtle. Presentation can do a lot to make a certain aesthetic take on a new light and appeal to a wider audience, be it in the form of muting or brightening the colors, adding elements from other styles that compliment, using it to set certain contasting or complimentary tones within the story, reflecting or symbolizing themes within the story, or reflecting the individual quirks of the character, which in turn fleshes them out and makes them seem more real regardless of their screen time. I actually think elements of Toad's original costume would have worked really well with the greasy punk rocker approach they took to the character in the films.

As for Clock King... yeah, the BTAS version is nice, it worked very well in BTAS, and on it's own merits I'd probably prefer it (if in if it is, again, fairly plain), but given the right presentatrion, playing up the personality of the character or setting a certain tone, the original one can work well too.

And as for Sabertooth, I think the simplest answer for why he wears a big furry collar is that he likes it. He's a 300 pound 6'5'' overly muscles serial killer. He pretty much lives by the philosophy of "**** you I do what I want."

 

[Fudgie]

Power Ranger look for Green Goblin.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I am gonna throw a tomato at the next person who says that. It's been 8 effing years now. Find some new material or let it go.

 

[roach]

Power Ranger look for Spider-man?

 

[Chris Wallace]

Except I never liked Sabertooth's comic costume, its not very menacing or stylish or anything, it just looks garish, the furry collar he wears makes him look like a camp gay aging European hipster, not a scary assassin or something. Also Toad's Silver Age costume pretty well sucked too. Just because a costume is in the comics, doesn't make it good. Most of the Brotherhood were fashion disasters. Though I liked Mystique's white dress from the comics, I don't if they couldn't have given it to her in the movie due to the make up job, but I kinda missed it.

Whether a villain's costume be changed or changed, depends on how iconic and stylish it looks like. Dr. Doom has a stylish and iconic look, his costume should stay more or less the same, Whiplash's costume was neither, so frankly there is more room to change it.

Most of the characters in X-Men have crappy costumes-heroes AND villains. I don't think the majority of thme look good even on paper. They're loud, pointlessly accessorized and have no theme to support. Many of them look like they're just wearing tights for the sake of wearing tights-like they do it because it's expected. But that doesn't mean that with the right imagination & effort we couldn't have gotten some cool movie suits. I defended the black leather for years but I'm no longer sure that was the best way to go. But nothing else was even considered.