God Bless America... Why?

Another one of those PC bull****. Saying "God Bless America" doesn't mean "God, please bless ONLY America and screw the other countries on this planet".
Nothing PC about it. Just asking why people, politicians in particular, say, "God bless America," and not something more encompassing. I mean, I'm working off of George Carlin here, nothing PC about him at all.
 
Nothing PC about it. Just asking why people, politicians in particular, say, "God bless America," and not something more encompassing. I mean, I'm working off of George Carlin here, nothing PC about him at all.
What is so wrong to ask God to bless your home? Just because you ask your home to be blessed, it doesn't mean you're asking for other homes not to be blessed. It's not like we don't share the blessings that we get with others. People like to portray America as the bad guy. I admit America isn't perfect and there are many decisions this government has made that I don't agree with but when there's trouble, who do they call? And it's not like we give nothing to foreign aid. If we are not blessed, how can we help others?
 
I agree with George Carlin on most things, but this is ******ed.

When a kid kneels beside his bed and prays,
"And God, please bless Mommy, and Daddy,and Grandma and please let me have a pony for my birthday!"

...he is not praying, "Please don't bless any of the mommies, daddies and grandmas in the surrounding neighborhood because I don't care for their well being at all, only mine and my family's....and also, please don't let anyone get a pony for their birthday except me!"

So, is the child supposed to be truly caring and selfless and go get the phone book every night and ask God to bless every person in it by name?...or, failing that, refrain from asking any blessing for his loved ones?


Come on now. :whatever:

The lyrics are very clear in their intent:
"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer. "

God Bless America,
Land that I love.
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam
God bless America, My home sweet home."


It means, "I love America. God, please help us through challenges because I'd hate to lose this awesome home of mine."
 
I agree with George Carlin on most things, but this is ******ed.

When a kid kneels beside his bed and prays,
"And God, please bless Mommy, and Daddy,and Grandma and please let me have a pony for my birthday!"

...he is not praying, "Please don't bless any of the mommies, daddies and grandmas in the surrounding neighborhood because I don't care for their well being at all, only mine and my family's....and also, please don't let anyone get a pony for their birthday except me!"

So, is the child supposed to be truly caring and selfless and go get the phone book every night and ask God to bless every person in it by name?...or, failing that, refrain from asking any blessing for his loved ones?


Come on now. :whatever:

The lyrics are very clear in their intent:
"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer. "

God Bless America,
Land that I love.
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam
God bless America, My home sweet home."

It means, "I love America. God, please help us through challenges because I'd hate to lose this awesome home of mine."
Possibly the best response yet. A good explenation of the saying and why it is said.

Was wondering when you were going to chime in. I haven't seen you post in a while.
 
I agree with George Carlin on most things, but this is ******ed.

When a kid kneels beside his bed and prays,
"And God, please bless Mommy, and Daddy,and Grandma and please let me have a pony for my birthday!"

...he is not praying, "Please don't bless any of the mommies, daddies and grandmas in the surrounding neighborhood because I don't care for their well being at all, only mine and my family's....and also, please don't let anyone get a pony for their birthday except me!"

So, is the child supposed to be truly caring and selfless and go get the phone book every night and ask God to bless every person in it by name?...or, failing that, refrain from asking any blessing for his loved ones?


Come on now. :whatever:

The lyrics are very clear in their intent:
"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer. "

God Bless America,
Land that I love.
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam
God bless America, My home sweet home."

It means, "I love America. God, please help us through challenges because I'd hate to lose this awesome home of mine."
Exactly. I don't get how some can interpret "God Bless America" any other way.

I think Carlin is a funny guy and I've agreed with him on a lot of the things he said but at the same time, I've also disagreed with many of his views, and this is one of them.
Possibly the best response yet. A good explenation of the saying and why it is said.

Was wondering when you were going to chime in. I haven't seen you post in a while.
I believe a few have given the same explanation that Wilhelm did, just worded it differently. It's funny how you change your stand/view now. Such a contrast to your first post.

Yay to Wilhelm, Angel of Enlightenment!

I'm sorry but I think it's quite ridiculous that you'd even have to ask why.
 
Here's the link

Saying someone is "anti-patriotic" or "anti-american" for not singing the national anthem, not wearing a flag lapel pin, not saluting the flag or other things is childish.

I would think actions such as serving in the military, being a public servant be it in the judicial system (as much as some lawyers deserve criticism) or even in the realm of politics (as much as some deserve criticism) are patriots. I would even say doctors and nurses, firefighters and police officers are patriots as well, since they heal us and care for us when we're sick or injured, rescue us when our home or workplace burn down, or get the criminals off the streets and take abusers out of the homes of their victims. Hell, I would even say that those who stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone when a majority don't see the wrong because they choose to ignore it, are also patriots, be they those who stood for the abolishment of slavery, the cause of women's suffrage, the civil rights movement in the south, even the various peace movements. I would also call "being a patriot" those who want to see our nation's environment kept clean and beautiful so future generations can enjoy them and feel compelled to spontaneously applaud upon seeing them.

Anyone can sing a song. Anyone can recite words. Anyone can wear a pin that costs about a dollar. Anyone can wave a flag. If those things means "being patriotic", then that's a damn pathetic definition of patriotism. A real patriot would prefer actions and deeds.
Those certainly are the ultimate showings of patriotism, no doubt. But how do we honor those people? What do we do as average citizens to show our respect and gratitude for those who died, for those who wanted us to live free? Not singing a song because you just don't want to or because you hate this country are too different things. We can stand united, as patriots, or we can stand divided. And, a country that stands divided will ultimately fall. I take off my hat for the National Anthem and put my hand on my heart to remember those that served our nation. People who don't do that IMO, who won't other wise do those noble things you listed, are disrepsectful and ungrateful of the gifts the have been given.
 
Another one of those PC bull****. Saying "God Bless America" doesn't mean "God, please bless ONLY America and screw the other countries on this planet".
Yeap...sad thing that this actually causes controversy.
 
PC sucks. Everyone should go Mac.
 
^And I think you pretty much killed this thread. :up:
 
Another one of those PC bull****. Saying "God Bless America" doesn't mean "God, please bless ONLY America and screw the other countries on this planet".

My sentiments exactly, though using a little harsher language than I would. :woot:

Are we going to have start putting qualifiers on the end of everything we say to try and placate those who seem to always want to find something to be offended about?

1. VOTE FOR CHANGE! VOTE FOR OBAMA! (or Clinton or even McCain . . . each Senator is as deserving of the Presidency as the other).

2. My favorite Indiana Jones movie is Raiders of the Lost Ark. That doesn't mean that I don't like The Temple of Doom or The Last Crusade just as much--or The Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, even though I haven't seen it (I'm sure it's equally as good).

3. Wow, you look nice today! I mean, it's not as if you look like the south end of a northbound mule every other day I've seen you. In fact, you look just as nice today as you do every other day of the week.

4. I'd like to order my steak medium well, please. Although, to be honest, I could just as easily have it rare, medium, well, or well done--each choice is equally as valid as the other.

5. Batman could beat anyone . . . with prep time. Of course, each of those others could beat each of the rest (including Batman) with prep
time, too. I don't want to malign either the intelligence, skills, or super powers of other comic book characters--their abilities have a right to be recognized.
 
I'm sorry, atheist I assume? Anytime I hear from or about an atheist all I can think of is Dane Cook's bit on the atheist dude.

Sorry, I just had to share, I've heard you being quoted a few times and had to post this. Sorry if like everybody's heard this.


God Bless America!

Yes, because part of a sub-par comedian's stand-up routine is ample wit. Yes, we've all heard it. It gets brought up to me in public or at familial get togethers constantly.

It's reeaalllly not funny any more. I'd like to show up at one of Cook's shows sometime, and when he starts this bit, just begin yelling "FERTILIZATION DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!"
 
why should God bless America?


um...cause America asked?
 
I'm sorry, atheist I assume? Anytime I hear from or about an atheist all I can think of is Dane Cook's bit on the atheist dude.

Sorry, I just had to share, I've heard you being quoted a few times and had to post this. Sorry if like everybody's heard this.
God Bless America!

Firstly, Dane cook sucks, he's really not that funny.
Secondly, not all atheists are jerks.
Finally, why is he so set on hurting the guy for his beliefs? I mean - first he wants to "smash him" then he wants to see him reincarnated (not a belief of an atheist anyway) into a tree just so he can be cut up and turned into religious propaganda....

Maybe you should look into geting your information about other belief systems from somewhere other than second rate comedians.
 
Raybia in reference to a suggestion that God might be imaginary

Not to the extent that you wish. But on the balance of probablities Your God does not exist.



It wasn't a suggestion that God might be imaginary. The poster said it as a matter of fact that, "The problem is, God is imaginary." My response was, "The problem is, you cannot prove it." And I still hold that position.

First of all, G-d not existing on the basic of probability is not enough to justify atheism. You have to argue more than that it's reasonable to believe atheism is true, you have to argue that atheism is more reasonable than is theism.

Second you wrote "My God does not exist." Define "My God." Do you have any idea of what my G-d is?

There lies the basis problem.

There is no universally accepted definition of G-d. There are many various definitions of G-d. Einstein himself believed in G-d but he used it in a particular philosophical sense. So which definition is of G-d is being rejected?

All of them?

Well it seems that a person would need to have some knowledge of them all in order to be able to logically refute and reject any and every definition of G-d.


As far as probablities are concern I believe its more likely that there is a Creator/G-d/Supreme being, etc. based the existence of a physical universe. If there is a creation then there is a high probability there is a Creator responsible.


Although it is true that you cannot disprove God entirely, it is also just as true that you cannot disprove the existence of the Tooth Fairy, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or unicorns having ever existed.

That was my original point however its not necessary for me to disprove the existence of these mythical creatures in order for G-d to exist.

However atheism doesn't win by default as a result.

Kai Nielsen, who is an atheist philosopher, makes this point as follows. He says,

To show that an argument is invalid or unsound is not to show that the conclusion of the argument is false. ... All the proofs of God's existence may fail, but it still may be the case that God exists.

In short, to show that the proofs do not work is not enough by itself. It may still be the case that God exists.




The onus of proof is not on non believers to disprove but on believers to prove - Which is also impossible for one of two reasons -
Either;

  1. God works in Mysterious ways; or
  2. There is no God
I'm sorry if this seems rude. But if you saw people willing to fight wars over what they thought the tooth fairy was telling them, then heard them arrogantly announce that they must be right because you can't "disprove" the existence of the tooth fairy, you'd eventually get tired of being nice too.

No, the onus of proof is not on either to prove. Why does either side have to prove whether or not G-d exists? To do so even if I could doesn't valid what I choose to believe in.

I choose to live my life under the assumption that G-d does exist but I certainly have no problem sleeping at night knowing that there are those who life under the assumption that there is no G-d. To live and let live is my motto.
 
Firstly, Dane cook sucks, he's really not that funny.
Secondly, not all atheists are jerks.
Finally, why is he so set on hurting the guy for his beliefs? I mean - first he wants to "smash him" then he wants to see him reincarnated (not a belief of an atheist anyway) into a tree just so he can be cut up and turned into religious propaganda....

Maybe you should look into geting your information about other belief systems from somewhere other than second rate comedians.

The idea of Dane Cooks joke was the absurd logic that the guy made a big deal about Dane saying god bless you when the man sneezed where it was a polite gesture not a prayer. Kinda like whats going on in this thread. I find it very relevant
 
It wasn't a suggestion that God might be imaginary. The poster said it as a matter of fact that, "The problem is, God is imaginary." My response was, "The problem is, you cannot prove it." And I still hold that position.
First of all, G-d not existing on the basic of probability is not enough to justify atheism. You have to argue more than that it's reasonable to believe atheism is true, you have to argue that atheism is more reasonable than is theism.


Can't proove that God is imaginary, just as you can't prove that he is not. It is a moot point. When i say "balance of probability" i am not referring to some close 50/50 split on probable outcome. I'm using it in the legal sense that we say it is most likely whichever deity you worship does not exist because i was being polite. I should have said "beyond all reasonable doubt". Atheism is more reasonable to believe in because it does not assert "fact" about reality that we already know to be false. (I.E that the world was made in 6 days, that there was a world wide flood, that supernatural occurences are common place regardless of a lack of any evidence supporting them)


Second you wrote "My God does not exist." Define "My God." Do you have any idea of what my G-d is?.
There is no universally accepted definition of G-d. There are many various definitions of G-d. So which definition is of G-d is being rejected? All of them?

look, i don't intend to be rude to any specific religions - i think they all have a similar amount of proof in regard to evidence for the existence of their deity... and that's none!


There is no universally accepted definition of G-d. There are many various definitions of G-d. So which definition is of G-d is being rejected? All of them? Well it seems that a person would need to have some knowledge of them all in order to be able to logically refute and reject any and every definition of G-d.As far as probablities are concern I believe its more likely that there is a Creator/G-d/Supreme being, etc. based the existence of a physical universe. If there is a creation then there is a high probability there is a Creator responsible.


which is why most atheists are technically Agnostic we aknowledge that there is always a chance that there is something that we do not know. I don't need to refute every definition of God just as i don't need to refute every definition of the tooth fairy - some say she can't be seen or measured by science... but you don't see me saying "oh no! - my flimsy science can't see her... that proves she's real"!

The problem of saying creation proves a creator is a cop out. It's basically saying i don't understand so it must be magic. as i stated earlier we don't a single irrifutable concept for the beginning of existence, although we do have some very good theories, we do have a pretty clear idea of almost everything that has happened since... and so far, none of it needs a supernatural explanation - so why should the beginning?

Furthermore, saying that because there is a physical universe that gives you reason to believe in your specific deity is like finding a rock on the ground ans assuming it was placed there by a jamaican robot 40 million years ago on its way to a fancy dress party on mars. It makes no sense, but neither of us can prove that it didn't happen....yet.

That was my original point however its not necessary for me to disprove the existence of these mythical creatures in order for G-d to exist.

Wait, I think you mean it is not necessary for you to prove the existence of these mythical creatures don't you... If you disproved them somehow, the same argument would be equally valid in disproving God. (apart from maybe "I'm a grown up now i don't believe in fairly tails anymore" - wouldn't recommend you use that one, it tends to just offend people, and it's not even an arguement, just the basic rationalisation we have all gone through in regards to the tooth fairy and santa clause - and with some of us, God)

Kai Nielsen, who is an atheist philosopher, makes this point as follows. He says,
To show that an argument is invalid or unsound is not to show that the conclusion of the argument is false. ... All the proofs of God's existence may fail, but it still may be the case that God exists.

that's true, although as all the arguements for god's existence fall down - as they have, continuing to believe becomes more and more absurd. If i point out there is no evidence of a fancy dress party ever having occured on Mars - you could still assume all evidence had been lost. If i point out Jamaica doesn't even build robots, you could still assume that it might do so in the future. If i point out that we have no evidence of robots on earth before man - you may choose to believe that the jamaican robot builders of the future made a time travelling party robot that left no traces of any of his adventures on earth... There is no possible way you can claim that an argument with no valid premisese can be held true. It doesn't make sense.

In short, to show that the proofs do not work is not enough by itself. It may still be the case that God exists.
And there always will be. But not for your specific god which requires definition, in which case you are giving him premises which can be invalidated and disproved (ie. If you say God created the world in 6 days - and i say he didn't and show the evidence of how he couldn't, your god may still exist but what you have stated he can/did do does not apply - unless you alter your redefine what he did saying something like - they weren't normal days etc)

once you go through it step by step you'll realise there is no room for god in the real world - His definition eventually becomes something along the lines of:

"There is a god, he may have done something during the begining, he probably didn't though as there's no evidence that he did, he didn't create man in one day, nor did he have anything to do with how people evolved otherwise there'd never have been any free will, he didn't give man a "moral compass" as morality existed long before he started "talking to people", none of his miracles have been scientifically verifiable - hence most likely not miracles, he can't intervene in reality or if he can he "chooses not too" either way he doesn't so seems kinda useless on that front, if he can talk to people he can't tell them anything they don't already know and is indistinguishable from normal imaginary internal dialogue, he can't help sick people who pray any more than a normal placebo, He may or may not punish or reward people after death, even though there's no evidence that we continue to exist as conscious beings after the brain permanently stops functioning."

So basically, God is indistinguishable from Nothingness....
 


Can't proove that God is imaginary, just as you can't prove that he is not. It is a moot point. When i say "balance of probability" i am not referring to some close 50/50 split on probable outcome. I'm using it in the legal sense that we say it is most likely whichever deity you worship does not exist because i was being polite. I should have said "beyond all reasonable doubt". Atheism is more reasonable to believe in because it does not assert "fact" about reality that we already know to be false. (I.E that the world was made in 6 days, that there was a world wide flood, that supernatural occurences are common place regardless of a lack of any evidence supporting them)


Easy to say but you haven't offered anything to convince me of that Atheism is more reasonable. By the way, you are rejecting G-d based on literal interpretation of the Bible, an interpretation that I too reject.







look, i don't intend to be rude to any specific religions - i think they all have a similar amount of proof in regard to evidence for the existence of their deity... and that's none!


Now you are merely speculating. I know of religions that use various arguments but I wouldn't would say they all offer proof. And no they are all not similar by any means.





which is why most atheists are technically Agnostic we aknowledge that there is always a chance that there is something that we do not know. I don't need to refute every definition of God just as i don't need to refute every definition of the tooth fairy - some say she can't be seen or measured by science... but you don't see me saying "oh no! - my flimsy science can't see her... that proves she's real"!


Nor do I have to refute arguments against the existence of G-d nor have I ever tried to prove that G-d is real.



The problem of saying creation proves a creator is a cop out. It's basically saying i don't understand so it must be magic. as i stated earlier we don't a single irrifutable concept for the beginning of existence, although we do have some very good theories, we do have a pretty clear idea of almost everything that has happened since... and so far, none of it needs a supernatural explanation - so why should the beginning?

I never said that creation proves a creator. You seem to be the one with the hang up about "proof". Concerning creation is the teleological argument, one of many arguments for the existence of G-d, which is no more or no less of a cop out than your premise for G-d not existing. However if that is the basis for your belief system I would not charge you with that.


Furthermore, saying that because there is a physical universe that gives you reason to believe in your specific deity is like finding a rock on the ground ans assuming it was placed there by a jamaican robot 40 million years ago on its way to a fancy dress party on mars. It makes no sense, but neither of us can prove that it didn't happen....yet.

My belief in G-d is based on more than just the existence of the physical universe however I'm entitled to believe in G-d on whatever basis I choose without apologize and ridicule. Just because it makes no sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.


Wait, I think you mean it is not necessary for you to prove the existence of these mythical creatures don't you... If you disproved them somehow, the same argument would be equally valid in disproving God. (apart from maybe "I'm a grown up now i don't believe in fairly tails anymore" - wouldn't recommend you use that one, it tends to just offend people, and it's not even an arguement, just the basic rationalisation we have all gone through in regards to the tooth fairy and santa clause - and with some of us, God)

Wrong. That is not what I mean at all. Again more assumptions on your part.


that's true, although as all the arguements for god's existence fall down - as they have, continuing to believe becomes more and more absurd. If i point out there is no evidence of a fancy dress party ever having occured on Mars - you could still assume all evidence had been lost. If i point out Jamaica doesn't even build robots, you could still assume that it might do so in the future. If i point out that we have no evidence of robots on earth before man - you may choose to believe that the jamaican robot builders of the future made a time travelling party robot that left no traces of any of his adventures on earth... There is no possible way you can claim that an argument with no valid premisese can be held true. It doesn't make sense.

Subjective. Those arguments for G-d assume a valid premise like those arguments against G-d assume a valid premise. Its up to the individual to determine what to accept and what to reject.


And there always will be. But not for your specific god which requires definition, in which case you are giving him premises which can be invalidated and disproved (ie. If you say God created the world in 6 days - and i say he didn't and show the evidence of how he couldn't, your god may still exist but what you have stated he can/did do does not apply - unless you alter your redefine what he did saying something like - they weren't normal days etc)


Obviously you don't have any knowledge nor understanding of my "specific G-d" as if you did you would know G-d doesn't require Definition. He requires nothing. That which is revealed is only for our benefit. And the examples you used is taken from a literal interpretation which again I do not accept.



once you go through it step by step you'll realise there is no room for god in the real world - His definition eventually becomes something along the lines of:


The only thing that I have realize is that there is no room for G-d in your world but G-d is active in mine. That doesn't bother me so it shouldn't bother you.


"There is a god, he may have done something during the begining, he probably didn't though as there's no evidence that he did, he didn't create man in one day, nor did he have anything to do with how people evolved otherwise there'd never have been any free will, he didn't give man a "moral compass" as morality existed long before he started "talking to people", none of his miracles have been scientifically verifiable - hence most likely not miracles, he can't intervene in reality or if he can he "chooses not too" either way he doesn't so seems kinda useless on that front, if he can talk to people he can't tell them anything they don't already know and is indistinguishable from normal imaginary internal dialogue, he can't help sick people who pray any more than a normal placebo, He may or may not punish or reward people after death, even though there's no evidence that we continue to exist as conscious beings after the brain permanently stops functioning."

So basically, God is indistinguishable from Nothingness.
...


I can see how a person with your perception would belief that.

Well what we have here is a Mexican standoff.

You seem to really be trying hard to prove that there is no G-d while my contention is that there are arguments on both sides. Arguments that are not going to sway one side to the other.

So I have no problem with people who don't believe in G-d but what I do a problem with is those Atheist who ridicule believers in G-d and believers in G-d who ridicule Atheists.

Lively discussion, so hopefully nothing taken personally!
:yay:
 
I was watching George Carlin's latest special, and he made this same point. God bless America? Why? What does the phrase mean? Is it a request, a demand? And why is it only America? Why not Darfur? It's people are being slaughtered. Why not Mexico? It's people risk persecution in this country just to find a job? Why not China and Tibet? My point is, what really makes America so special that we are the only one's deserving of God's blessing? It seems to me, that if we are going to request a blessing from God, maybe we should show a little humility, and not put our own country, the wealthiest nation on Earth, ahead of those less fortunate.

Why not?

Anybody is free to wish that to their country. As far as I understand, nothing is stopping a Mexican to say it, or a Chinese, a Russian, or a Greek. It's just a wish of goodwill, and I see nothing wrong or selfish about it.
 
What exactly do you believe in Raybia? What arguments are there that involve actual proof on the side of people who believe in god? You already mentioned you don't take the Bible literally, so that's why I ask.
 
What exactly do you believe in Raybia? What arguments are there that involve actual proof on the side of people who believe in god? You already mentioned you don't take the Bible literally, so that's why I ask.

Thats not an easy answer as my beliefs are wide and cannot be defined simply by stating my religion as well as the fact that my beliefs are constantly evolving as I obtain greater knowledge and understanding. With that said, I am a Muslim.

I wouldn't say actual proof. They are merely arguments. Some of those include:

* The cosmological argument argues that there was a "first cause", or "prime mover" who is identified as God.

* The teleological argument argues that the universe's order and complexity are best explained by reference to a creator god.

* The ontological argument is based on arguments about a "being greater than which can not be conceived". Alvin Plantinga formulates this argument to show that if it is logically possible for God (a necessary being) to exist, then God exists.

* The mind-body problem argument suggests that the relation of consciousness to materiality is best understood in terms of the existence of God.

* Arguments that some non-physical quality observed in the universe is of fundamental importance and not an epiphenomenon, such as justice, beauty, love or religious experience are arguments for theism as against materialism.

* The anthropic argument suggests that basic facts, such as our existence, are best explained by the existence of God.

* The moral argument argues that the existence of objective morality depends on the existence of God.

* The transcendental argument suggests that logic, science, ethics, and other things we take seriously do not make sense in the absence of God, and that atheistic arguments must ultimately refute themselves if pressed with rigorous consistency.

* The will to believe doctrine was pragmatist philosopher William James' attempt to prove God by showing that the adoption of theism as a hypothesis "works" in a believer's life. This doctrine depended heavily on James' pragmatic theory of truth where beliefs are proven by how they work when adopted rather than by proofs before they are believed (a form of the hypothetico-deductive method).

* Arguments based on claims of miracles wrought by God associated with specific historical events or personages.
 

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