Has the genre peaked?

samsnee

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Thought this was in interesting article on how we might be peaking with the genre. I can agree that this summer, for comic book fans, has been really great. You have IM and TDK, which will no doubt be two of the best, most entertaining movies of the year. Hulk, for the most part, was enjoyable, and better received than the previous version. Hancock, while even, did present some new ideas on screen that we haven't seen before. And even HBII showed that an obscure comic could work.

So are the rest of the movies from here are on out going to be disappointing in regards to what we've seen this year? I also agree strongly with the author's note that as artistic and visionary that some of the directors try to be, at the end of the day, they are still confined to a similar structure of action beats and the hero/villain fight at the end.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/movies/24supe.html

How Many Superheroes Does It Take to Tire a Genre?

By A. O. SCOTT
“Batman has no limits,” says Bruce Wayne to his manservant, Alfred, early in “The Dark Knight,” and the accountants at Warner Brothers, which released the movie, are likely to agree. I’m not so sure.


“The Dark Knight,” praised by critics for its somber themes and grand ambitions, has proven to be a mighty box office force in a summer already dominated by superheroes of various kinds. But any comic book fan knows that a hero at the height of his powers is a few panels removed from mortal danger, and that hubris has a way of summoning new enemies out of the shadows. Are the Caped Crusader and his colleagues basking in an endless summer of triumph, or is the sun already starting to set?


The season began with “Iron Man” back in May, which anticipated “The Dark Knight” in striking many reviewers as a pleasant surprise and hordes of moviegoers as a must-see. The July Fourth weekend belonged to “Hancock,” which played with the superhero archetype by making him a grouchy, slovenly drunk rather than a brilliant scientist, a dashing billionaire or some combination of the two. In that case, the reviews were mixed, but the money flowed in anyway. Even the lackluster “Incredible Hulk,” back in June, managed a reasonably robust opening, as did “Hellboy II,” a somewhat more esoteric comic-book movie.


The commercial strength of the superhero genre is hardly news of course. Ever since Tobey Maguire was bitten by a spider back in 2002, this decade has been something of a golden age for large-scale action movies featuring guys in high-tech bodysuits battling garishly costumed, ruthless criminal masterminds. Some of them — the “Fantastic Four” pictures, most notably — are content to be entertaining pop-culture throwaways. But most aspire to be something more, to be taken as seriously as their heroes and villains take themselves.


These movies wear their allegorical hearts on their cartoon sleeves, dressing up their stories with intimations of topicality overt, like the Afghan kidnappers in “Iron Man,” and indirect, like the ruminations on due process and torture in “The Dark Knight.” They are also stuffed with first-rate actors who, rather than slumming for a paycheck as Marlon Brando did in 1978 in “Superman,” at least attempt real, fleshed-out performances.
Heath Ledger and Aaron Eckhart do some of their best work in “The Dark Knight,” as does Robert Downey Jr. in “Iron Man.” Well-regarded directors like Sam Raimi and Bryan Singer have burnished their reputations with the “Spider-Man” and “X-Men” franchises, as has Christopher Nolan, director of “The Dark Knight” and its predecessor, “Batman Begins.” These filmmakers have become bankable auteurs in the Hollywood economy, affixing their artistic signatures to projects that come with budgets in excess of $100 million dollar, built-in mass appeal and an ever-growing measure of cultural prestige.


There have been missteps and disappointments — Ang Lee’s 2003 “Hulk”; Mr. Singer’s “Superman Returns”; the third installment of the “X-Men” series, directed by Brett Ratner — but these have hardly dented the power of the genre. And its hold over the attention of studio executives and audiences is unlikely to end anytime soon. Already the studios are locking in release dates for the next rounds. Mark your calendars: The first X-Men spinoff, “X-Men Origins: Wolverine,” will come along next May, and “Iron Man 2” is scheduled to hit the local multiplex on April 30, 2010, two months ahead of “The Green Hornet,” with Seth Rogen stepping into the Van Williams role from the television series.


Still, I have a hunch, and perhaps a hope, that “Iron Man,” “Hancock” and “Dark Knight” together represent a peak, by which I mean not only a previously unattained level of quality and interest, but also the beginning of a decline. In their very different ways, these films discover the limits built into the superhero genre as it currently exists.


I don’t want to start any fights with devout fans or besotted critics. I’m willing to grant that “The Dark Knight” is as good as a movie of its kind can be. But that may be damning with faint praise. There is no doubt that Batman, a staple of American popular culture for nearly 70 years, provided Mr. Nolan (and his brother and screenwriting partner Jonathan), with a platform for his artistic ambitions. You can’t set out to make a psychological thriller, or even an urban crime melodrama, and expect to command anything like the $185 million budget Mr. Nolan had at his disposal in “The Dark Knight.” And that money, in addition to paying for some dazzling set pieces and action sequences, allowed Mr. Nolan and his team to create a seamless and evocative visual atmosphere, a Gotham nightscape often experienced from the air.


But to paraphrase something the Joker says to Batman, “The Dark Knight” has rules, and they are the conventions that no movie of this kind can escape. The climax must be a fight with the villain, during which the symbiosis of good guy and bad guy, implicit throughout, must be articulated. The end must point forward to a sequel, and an aura of moral consequence must be sustained even as the killings, explosions and chases multiply. The allegorical stakes in a superhero are raised — it’s not just good guys fighting bad guys, but Righteousness against Evil, Order against Chaos — precisely to authorize a more intense level of violence. Of course every movie genre is governed by conventions, and every decent genre movie explores the zones of freedom within those iron parameters. Thus “Iron Man” loosens the reins of its plot to give Mr. Downey room to explore the kinks and idiosyncrasies of Tony Stark, the playboy billionaire engineering genius who finally grows up and builds himself a metal suit. And “Hancock” takes the conceit of a dissipated, semi-competent hero — more menace than protector — and turns it into the occasion for some sharp satirical riffing on race, celebrity and the supposedly universal likability of its star, Will Smith.


But in both cases, as soon as the main character is suited up and ready to do battle, the originality drains out of the picture, and the commercial imperatives — the big fight, the overscaled action extravaganza — take over. “The Dark Knight” has some advantages from being the second movie in a series, with less need for exposition and basic character development, and its final act is less of a letdown.


Instead the disappointment comes from the way the picture spells out lofty, serious themes and then ... spells them out again. What kind of hero do we need? Where is the line between justice and vengeance? How much autonomy should we sacrifice in the name of security? Is the taking of innocent life ever justified? These are all fascinating, even urgent questions, but stating them, as nearly every character in “The Dark Knight” does, sooner of later, is not the same as exploring them.
And yet stating such themes is as far as the current wave of superhero movies seems able or willing to go. The westerns of the 1940s and ’50s, obsessed with similar themes, were somehow able, at their best, as in John Ford’s “Searchers” and Howard Hawks’s “Rio Bravo,” to find ambiguities and tensions buried in their own rigid paradigms.


But the cowboys of old did not labor under the same burdens as their masked and caped descendants. Those poor, misunderstood crusaders must turn big profits on a global scale and satisfy an audience hungry for the thrill of novelty and the comforts of the familiar. Is it just me, or is the strain starting to show?
 
It will only peak if the film makers let it.

Films like TDK will encourage other comic adaptions to do better quality films. This is not a bad thing.

Not that movie genres can't have their ups and downs. All it takes is for the film makers to make great films about the genre.
 
I agree with the above.
I think Heath Ledger will be nominated for an academy award...and I will go on to say that I think TDK will be nominated for Best Picture.....yeah, I said it and I believe it. It will be the first comic book superhero film to do so. Hey, if movies based on fantasy such as a Tolkein book can win, it's high time for a comic book movie to follow. I think this is only going to give the whole genre credibility.
TDK is the first superhero film since Superman: The Movie, the one that started it all, that as you watch, you feel an epic quality wash over you. It's been a full 30 years since a superhero movie made this seismic an impact. X2, Spider-man 2, Batman and Batman Begins all came very, very close and felt like they brushed that, but Superman and The Dark Knight feel like they are on a shelf reserved for classics. This kind of film making not only does wonders for the genre, but for film making itself.
 
It will only peak if the film makers let it.

Films like TDK will encourage other comic adaptions to do better quality films. This is not a bad thing.

Not that movie genres can't have their ups and downs. All it takes is for the film makers to make great films about the genre.

Sorry, that's not so. No matter how great a chocolate cake is, you can only eat so much.

Audiences will tire of superhero movies. The genre will never disapear altogether, but these summers of three superhero blockbusters won't last forever.
 
Sorry, that's not so. No matter how great a chocolate cake is, you can only eat so much.

Audiences will tire of superhero movies. The genre will never disapear altogether, but these summers of three superhero blockbusters won't last forever.

Already went over this with the "ups and downs" portions of my post.

You're right eventually the genre will die down but that doesn't change the fact the genre will never totally stagnate as long as the quality is good.
 
Sorry, that's not so. No matter how great a chocolate cake is, you can only eat so much.

Audiences will tire of superhero movies. The genre will never disapear altogether, but these summers of three superhero blockbusters won't last forever.

You're right eventually the genre will die down due to over-exposure but that doesn't change the fact the genre will never totally stagnate as long as the quality is good.
 
Well, let's face it, what is there left?

The Spider-Man series is past it's peak. There will be a fourth, does anyone think it will be as good as the previous entries?
We've had the best Batman movie. A third Nolan movie will no doubt be superb, but most believe we've hit the peak of this franchise.
Superman Returned temporarily.
The X-Men are done.
Nobody wanted to see Hulk despite his two chances.
Fantastic Four are finished.

What are the big hitters left?

Next year, we have Watchmen, The Spirit, Wolverine....hardly Batman and Spider-Man size names. The first two are likely to appeal more to fans than general audiences.

Waiting in the wings are Captain America. Green Lantern, the Flash and Wonder Woman. JLA - if any of these get made before the genre tails off.

Now, don't get me wrong, I've been hitting these boards for almost a decade, I love the genre. I watch everything, even the stuff no-one has heard of like Silver Hawk and The Guyver. But I am a fan of film as well, and all one needs to do is look at the horror movies of the 30's, the fantasy movies of the 80's, the disaster movies of the 70's, the one-man-army action movies of the 80's, film noir of the 40's, musicals of the 50's....and so on. Genres build, boom, fade, and return later on. Embrace it.
 
Kevin:

Unlike most movie franchises comic super-heroes are made to have endless stories. Most super-heroes have some good enemies they can use, as long as Hollywood pays attention to the comics, or they can create new villains if need be and they can rely on any good stories they haven't adapted if the comics have some which could work in the movies.

Superman's enemies have barely been shown in the movies at all or his mythos expanded upon in depth anywhere near the comics or cartoons!

Movie studios definitely will make new movies of the high profile franchises since they know they make money for them. Batman's on his 7th IIRC.

This could be a good thing for the lesser franchises, too. Once all the high profile franchises are filmed, which is a few years from happening at least, they can focus on the others which have potential. Marvel and DC have not tapped 1/10th of their super-hero franchises in the films, cartoons or tv shows. Many have incredible potential the public hasn't seen yet.

There are more super-hero comics from the independent side of the industry, too.
 
Everything comes full circle. Horror movies went out for a while, then that **** came back, with a horrible veageance. Comic book films have been made since their inception. As long as there are characters, movies will be made. I wouldn't let some failures in the genre deter me from making more.
 
Kevin:

Unlike most movie franchises comic super-heroes are made to have endless stories. Most super-heroes have some good enemies they can use, as long as Hollywood pays attention to the comics, or they can create new villains if need be and they can rely on any good stories they haven't adapted if the comics have some which could work in the movies.

It's nothing to do with stories, or quality. It's to do with saturation.

Do you honestly think that in ten, twenty years' time, we'll be seeing three huge superhero movies every year?
 
It's nothing to do with stories, or quality. It's to do with saturation.

Do you honestly think that in ten, twenty years' time, we'll be seeing three huge superhero movies every year?

It's possible.

I do believe the genre will fall out of the mainstream eventually for a while before that time, of course.

Then when some enterprising film maker creates a new film that gets acclaim in the genre will be it be revived again.

The cycle will fall and rise in Hollywood like any other film genre.
 
We have this discussion so many times and then we see yet another comic book movie reach massive success. I don't think that it has peaked yet and won't for quite sometime at the rate it is going now.
 
As long as people are willing to show respect to the character and put in the work(Examples: SM1,SM2,Superman,IM,BB,TDK, and even Tranformers), people will come to see it..........Those films all put out quality work, and made the films entertaining.
 
The article has valid points, most genres go through cycles where they're hot for a good number of years then suddenly no-one cares about them, westerns, musicals, horror, superhero films are no different and will suffer the same fate. I think eventually we'll see less superhero films hit the market and ultimately superhero films will have gone past their use by date, that's not to say they won't be back, but like aforementioned genres, you'll only seem them pop up every once and a while and not every year. Whether we've hit the peak is debatable, but I think we're close. The Dark Knight has set the bar very high, I can see two outcomes, other superhero films will strive to reach the same level, or they'll be content to use the same formula.
 
While Nolan is the exception, I don't want them utilizing indie and upper class directors for every new comic flick either, because these things are supposed to be fun. I ain't trying to see Teen Titans directed by David Mamet.
 
I agree with Kevin. I think the well is running dry, at least on the "big" names. Yes, they can make another Spider-man, or Batman, or even Superman, but will audiences still turn out for a 5th or 6th sequel? I don't count BB or TDK as sequels to the original Batman obviously.

Everything comes full circle. Horror movies went out for a while, then that **** came back, with a horrible veageance. Comic book films have been made since their inception. As long as there are characters, movies will be made. I wouldn't let some failures in the genre deter me from making more.

I don't think this is a fair comparison. Horror movies are cheap as ***** to make, and so can easily make their budget back in no time. But you do honestly think a good superhero movie can be made under $75-$100 million? You want Superman adventures that involve Darkseid or the New Gods? That won't be cheap.

Look at sixty years ago when we had two or three Westerns out in a year. Now we're lucky if we get one. Once the well dries up, I think we'll see a lull for a good ten years before we get re-launch of the big names again for a new audience.
 
While Nolan is the exception, I don't want them utilizing indie and upper class directors for every new comic flick either, because these things are supposed to be fun. I ain't trying to see Teen Titans directed by David Mamet.


Yes. Agreed. There are certain characters that I think should be given more gravitas: Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, X-Men and the Avengers come to mind.

But other characters are just supposed to be fun. The reason F4 sucked wasn't because it was too corny; it was because it wasn't corny in the right ways. A well done F4 movie would be like the cast of Leave it to Beaver being shot into space and exploring the craziest worlds. It definitely needs to have a late 50s/ early 60s camp tone.

Some characters have to be serious, but if you take them all too seriously, it becomes a bore.
 
I agree with Kevin. I think the well is running dry, at least on the "big" names. Yes, they can make another Spider-man, or Batman, or even Superman, but will audiences still turn out for a 5th or 6th sequel? I don't count BB or TDK as sequels to the original Batman obviously.



I don't think this is a fair comparison. Horror movies are cheap as ***** to make, and so can easily make their budget back in no time. But you do honestly think a good superhero movie can be made under $75-$100 million? You want Superman adventures that involve Darkseid or the New Gods? That won't be cheap.

Look at sixty years ago when we had two or three Westerns out in a year. Now we're lucky if we get one. Once the well dries up, I think we'll see a lull for a good ten years before we get re-launch of the big names again for a new audience.


That being said, that time isn't coming soon; Marvel and DC are planning like a combined 50 movies over the next 10 years. I think the well WILL run dry though around 2018-2020. Once we've seen all of the big names on screen, it'll come done to sequels. Once you get DC's biggest 10 names, and marvel's biggest 10 names on the silver screen, Moonknight and Blue Beetle won't be exciting anyone... (my apologies to the fans of Moonknight and Blue Beetle.)
 
Once you get DC's biggest 10 names, and marvel's biggest 10 names on the silver screen, Moonknight and Blue Beetle won't be exciting anyone... (my apologies to the fans of Moonknight and Blue Beetle.)

I'm trying to think of the ten biggest names in each that would be able top open their own movie (and not just a JL or Avengers movie) and I can't.

DC
1. Superman (already done)
2. Batman (already done)
3. Wonder Woman
4. Green Lantern
5. Flash
6. Green Arrow
7. Ugh... Hawkman? Martian Manhunter.

Marvel
1. Spider-man (already done)
2. X-men (already done)
3. Fantastic Four (already done)
4. Iron Man (already done)
5. Captain America
6. Hulk (already done)
7. Thor

So you can see that most of them already have franchises going, some probably already tapped out in terms of potential. So I don't know how many more good years we have left.
 
Sam;

Which franchises do you think have tapped their potential?
 
I'm trying to think of the ten biggest names in each that would be able top open their own movie (and not just a JL or Avengers movie) and I can't.

DC
1. Superman (already done)
2. Batman (already done)
3. Wonder Woman
4. Green Lantern
5. Flash
6. Green Arrow
7. Ugh... Hawkman? Martian Manhunter.
9. Teen Titans
10. The Outsiders (yeah, another team flick will need to be done)
11. Plastic Man as well
Marvel
1. Spider-man (already done)
2. X-men (already done)
3. Fantastic Four (already done)
4. Iron Man (already done)
5. Captain America
6. Hulk (already done)
7. Thor

So you can see that most of them already have franchises going, some probably already tapped out in terms of potential. So I don't know how many more good years we have left.


I added a couple more in DC. The DC Universe has a LOT of characters, the issue is that most of them are parts of teams and only have solo adventures occasionally.
 
Graphic Novels seem to be the way to go.
 
Snip.
Marvel
1. Spider-man (already done)
2. X-men (already done)
3. Fantastic Four (already done)
4. Iron Man (already done)
5. Captain America
6. Hulk (already done)
7. Thor

So you can see that most of them already have franchises going, some probably already tapped out in terms of potential. So I don't know how many more good years we have left.

Nova: Spider-Man meets Buck Rogers!

Doc Samson: the Superpowered Shrink!

Patsy Walker-Hellcat: The spoiled little rich girl in over her head as superhero!

The Sentry: Imagine if Superman and Bizarro inhabited the same body.

Squadron Supreme/Supreme Power: Marvel's deconstructionist answer to Watchmen and The Authority, but originally done before either of them!

Black Widow and/or Spider Woman: The superheroine as seductive superspy!

She-Hulk and/or Ms. Marvel: I am Superwoman, hear me roar (with pleasure! ;) )

Not to mention more mainstream concepts like Luke Cage, Black Panther, Namor, and The Falcon.
 
Sam;

Which franchises do you think have tapped their potential?

I would say Spider-man, X-men, Hulk, and and Fantastic Four have reached their potential at this point. What other villains are there for Spider-man that would offer something new and different for the general public? Maybe Mysterio, Kraven or Lizard. So that's maybe one or two more movies. X-men seems to be moving forward with solo stories like Wolverine. And the less said about FF the better. They should just give it to Marvel and let them do a re-boot in 6 years. I thought TIH was great, but it doesn't look like we'll get a direct sequel.

Nova: Spider-Man meets Buck Rogers!

Doc Samson: the Superpowered Shrink!

Patsy Walker-Hellcat: The spoiled little rich girl in over her head as superhero!

The Sentry: Imagine if Superman and Bizarro inhabited the same body.

Squadron Supreme/Supreme Power: Marvel's deconstructionist answer to Watchmen and The Authority, but originally done before either of them!

Black Widow and/or Spider Woman: The superheroine as seductive superspy!

She-Hulk and/or Ms. Marvel: I am Superwoman, hear me roar (with pleasure! ;) )

Not to mention more mainstream concepts like Luke Cage, Black Panther, Namor, and The Falcon.

Most of the ones you listed seem derivative of other heroes the public has already seen or will see. Or, they are not "big names" so studios may not be willing to risk the budget they need to tell their story if they don't see a good bottom line.

The closest franchise I can think of that we can look at as a benchmark is the Bond series. Somehow, it's been going for over twenty films, even though most of the stories are basically the same... Bond girl, world-dominating villain, cool gadgets, etc. Yet, they somehow continue to draw in the crowds.
 
I think as long as there are still children having parents buy them the latest cool superhero themed toy there will be superhero movies.
 

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