BvS Have you seen the movie multiple times? If yes, has your opinion changed?

[LEVITIKUZ]

I would have had Wonder Woman end the fight separating them, making them realize Bats isn't Supers's enemy and Supers's isn't Bats's enemy.

It's also the perfect way to satisfy fanboys with Wonder Woman ending it so there isn't an ending where one side wins.

 

[shauner111]

but that reason alone isn't what stops the fight.

It's the combination of the name+ batman's realization that he's in the same place that the killed of their parents was+ lois jumping in.

"martha" just sets in motion.


Another example of people oversimplifying ****

What realization? He kills a bunch of thugs right after that scene, when he didn't need to.

 

[Aquafinn90]

That is what stops fight. Superman have same mother name as Martha. It so stupid but that the real reason why it stops. Not anything to do with place where Bruce parents die.

Batman should have done investigation of Superman but Snyder make Batman too stupid to be proper Batman who would have done detective work like that. Affleck the worst movie Batman.

No.

The entire point of that scene was Batman realizing Superman's humanity. He's about to be killed but the only thing he wants is for his mother who he loves to be safe. Batman says directly before this "You were never a God. You weren't even a man." He now realizes that Superman is just like him. A man with a mother who he loves and wants to protect with his last dying wish.

It was clear as day the first time I saw this it. I find myself perpetually baffled that a top complaint is "They stop fighting because their mother's have the same name"

 

[Marvin]

Someone explain to me why a background check is suppose to solve batman's problem with him.

For the people that believe they saw a movie where the entire conflict stopped simply because the mothers had the same name. For the people that believe otherwise probably not(the idea that batman has become that which he hates the most, the idea that martha needs saving like his own did long ago...etc).
Art is read differently by different folks, it's fine.

 

[shauner111]

A backround check and a mature conversation would lead to an interesting discussion. Batman would find out that he's Clark Kent, has a mother named Martha that he loves. Superman could tell him Lex has his mother. Or Clark telling Bruce his true intentions. This would change everything.

But the title is BATMAN V SUPERMAN so we know why everything is illogical and forced.

A World's Finest would have been much more logical.

 

[Jaxon]

I would have had Wonder Woman end the fight separating them, making them realize Bats isn't Supers's enemy and Supers's isn't Bats's enemy.

But that would completely undermine the whole point of the movie (completing act 2 of Superman's arc), being that Superman actually becomes Superman at the end by redeeming everyone. The fight ends as Superman's love of humanity (his mother (Martha) and Lois) redeems Batman's abandonment of his own humanity.

 

[Bwahaha!]

How would a background check have allowed Bruce to realize that Superman isn't out to kill everyone?

Lex doesn't want Batman's head, he tells Superman that in the hopes that Batman will kill Superman. DD was his plan B. Lex is always a step ahead. Additionally, it seemed to me that by using his own blood in DD he thought that he would be able to control it somehow. Snyder confirmed this as well. Granted I guess it could have been explained, by I don't see the need for that. It makes sense enough on its own.

I'll give you the one about Lex and Batman's plans somewhat conveniently lining up, but I think its a nitpick. Just about every movie has a convenience factor to it. I would hardly call this a hole. I don't think Superman at that point has any idea what Kryptonite even is. And he gives Batman his final warning in that very scene "consider this mercy"

Tracker on the truck- Plan B. Not a hole, a backup plan. See Lex Luthor.

Again I'll give this one about WW being in Metropolis being the convenience factor again. Nitpick however.

Perry obviously trusts Lois and knows that something must be very wrong. I always wondered if he didn't suspect that Clark was Superman. I don't see how this is a hole though.

As for the "Martha" moment. This is difference in opinion. I thought it was a stroke of brilliance to use that connection to instantly snap Batman out of his determination to kill Superman. It's in that moment that he realizes he's become the very thing he sought to put an end to, someone breaking the bond between a mother and her son. I loved it, totally bought it. Many didn't and that's okay. As for him trusting Batman to save his mother while he got to Lex at the ship, I thought that was a great moment between the two of them.

I don't think that the government believes Superman directly responsible for those deaths. More that him showing up caused those deaths indirectly. The African woman in the beginning of the movie says something to the effect of the African government showing up and killing villagers in a firefight after Superman showed up. I noticed that on a repeat viewing yesterday, but didn't catch exactly what she said. I'll have to pay more attention to that.

Lex used Zod's fingerprints to initially gain access to the ship, then somehow did a security override of sorts. It's not explained how, but I don't think its important nor is it hard to believe as Lex has a lot of resources, including technology to use at his disposal.

I mean Batman could have done that, but that would be risking leaving DD alone to jump back to Metropolis and continue wreaking havoc. The ports of Gotham were abandoned anyways.

For all this talk about Snyder getting the character of Superman wrong I find it funny that so many people are quick to say things like "He should have just let Lois go get the spear in the water" or "He should have given the spear to WW to kill DD" - Like Superman would do either of those things. Regardless the scene would have turned out exactly the same whether it was himself or Lois that got the spear.

Which brings us back to what I brought up earlier. Superman: "Here Wonder Woman, take this spear and kill DD with it while I stand by and watch."
k.

I pretty much agree with everything you've said here. But I have to add, it's odd watching BVS fans and haters go back and forth. Like they live in different realities...kinda like a democrat vs republican presidential debate. Lmao.

The one thing I take a tiny issue with is the Martha moment. I mean, on one hand it's cool that Snyder made a thing of both their mothers' being named Martha. I get it. Yet if I was fighting someone and needed to tell them my mom's life was in jeopardy, I wouldn't use her name. That's awkward. I'd just clearly say Lex has my *mom* and is planning to kill her.

That said, the reason Supes would use her actual name, Martha, is because he already knew Batman was Bruce Wayne and did some investigative journalism and discovered Bruce's mother was named Marths too, and was murdered. It's not hard to accept that Clark Kent did this sleuthing (googling? lol) and found out the Martha connection...but it woulda been nice to have shown that Clark did do some sort of background check on Wayne. I dunno. It didn't work for me, and yet it did work. I guess I have one foot in each reality.

I tell you what, though. The fact we are discussing and debating these minutiae plot threads means Snyder won. Most artists would kill for such fiery conversations about their creations.

 

[Jaxon]

That said, the reason Supes would use her actual name, Martha, is because he already knew Batman was Bruce Wayne and did some investigative journalism and discovered Bruce's mother was named Marths too, and was murdered..

The reason he uses the name is because he was trying to Bruce to go and save Martha Kent. You can see him trying to mouth Kent but with a foot in his throat doesn't get it out. He may or may not know the identity, but Superman's view point is that in his last breath he tells someone who is trying to kill him to go and save someone.

 

[super85]

I had seen the film previously twice on regular 2D, saw it last night on IMAX 3D. An enjoyable experience. A few details that I had previously missed, but like said, still an enjoyable experience.

 

[Kanye West]

That is what stops fight. Superman have same mother name as Martha. It so stupid but that the real reason why it stops. Not anything to do with place where Bruce parents die.

Batman should have done investigation of Superman but Snyder make Batman too stupid to be proper Batman who would have done detective work like that. Affleck the worst movie Batman.

yeah no.

If you wanna refuse to make any connections that's fine but the name "martha" is a catalyst for a chain of events that go through bruce's head.

More gross over-simplifications

 

[Kanye West]

For the people that believe they saw a movie where the entire conflict stopped simply because the mothers had the same name. For the people that believe otherwise probably not(the idea that batman has become that which he hates the most, the idea that martha needs saving like his own did long ago...etc).
Art is read differently by different folks, it's fine.

misreading such an obvious plot point that literally screams it's meaning at you is a bit worse than just saying it's "subjective".

You literally need to throw your brain out to not understand that scene

 

[Flint Marko]

It's not a tough scene to understand, but it was poorly executed.

 

[Kanye West]

It's not a tough scene to understand, but it was poorly executed.

that's an opinion and I agree to an extent.
But there's a clear thing it's meant to do and what it was TRYING to do was apparent (whether you thinks it's done well or not). But there are people who are exclusively looking it at face value when that's objectively wrong.

 

[shauner111]

It's supposed to be about more than the name Martha. There's supposed to be a realization of how far he's become. That Bruce has become the criminal who shot and murdered his parents. Worse actually, because he's planning out a murder and was willing to go through with it. Joe Chill or whoever he is didn't even plan a murder necessarily. Usually, not. But the execution throws it all away in two ways:

A) Batman continues to kill right after this scene
B) Superman unnaturally yelling his moms first name when he always calls her mom. This was a heat of the moment panic, not something with thought put into it, so it came off extremely unnatural. I also thought Cavill's delivery was bad.

So with that in mind, i didn't feel any emotion from the scene. Which in my POV made the scene a failure. The reason some people make fun of the scene now is because they felt zero emotion from it.

I for one understand the scene. I just think it's horribly written/executed. Im aware of the intention.

It also doesn't help that Terrio wrote a line before the attempted murder where Bruce talks about Clark's parents teaching him great things. Or that the fight shouldn't have gone to that level in the FIRST PLACE. The whole fight shows paper thin motivations on the part of Superman, Batman and Luthor.

Fact: People are inherently stupid

And arrogant apparently.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

I think a better idea would have been before Batman was about to spear Superman, there's a puddle right next to Superman & Batman sees his own reflection. He sees what he's doing & what he's become. He hates how he looks. He then looks at Superman and sees the same frightened look Bruce had as a kid. He realizes what he's doing.

That's how it should have ended

 

[Doctor Octopus]

No.

The entire point of that scene was Batman realizing Superman's humanity. He's about to be killed but the only thing he wants is for his mother who he loves to be safe. Batman says directly before this "You were never a God. You weren't even a man." He now realizes that Superman is just like him. A man with a mother who he loves and wants to protect with his last dying wish.

It was clear as day the first time I saw this it. I find myself perpetually baffled that a top complaint is "They stop fighting because their mother's have the same name"

Yes.

lol Batman seeing Superman humanity is no good reason for him to not think Superman is still dangerous like he think because he still super powered and he still could have more fights like one in Metropolis in Man of steel where lots of people get killed. Superman momma not going to change that lol.

yeah no.

If you wanna refuse to make any connections that's fine but the name "martha" is a catalyst for a chain of events that go through bruce's head.

More gross over-simplifications

Disagreed. You just making up what you want to believe happen in Bruce's head so scene not look so stupid because they stop fighting because mommas have same name which is what really happen lol.

I think a better idea would have been before Batman was about to spear Superman, there's a puddle right next to Superman & Batman sees his own reflection. He sees what he's doing & what he's become. He hates how he looks. He then looks at Superman and sees the same frightened look Bruce had as a kid. He realizes what he's doing.

That's how it should have ended

Agreed.

 

[Kanye West]

Disagreed. You just making up what you want to believe happen in Bruce's head so scene not look so stupid because they stop fighting because mommas have same name which is what really happen lol.

ok buddy

 

[Marvin]

What realization? He kills a bunch of thugs right after that scene, when he didn't need to.

Nah, the only thugs he 'killed' were the ones he needed to. Otherwise every single one of them would have been killed(rather easily. The reality is that 'right after that scene' he simply goes into nolan batman mode. A mode I thought was celebrated in this regard.
I suppose he could have just gone the ninja academy explosion route with this warehouse, probably would have been less controversial, even if it meant martha's life as well(always did wonder what happened to that man he refused to kill in begins scene).

 

[shauner111]

Nah, the only thugs he 'killed' were the ones he needed to. Otherwise every single one of them would have been killed(rather easily. The reality is that 'right after that scene' he simply goes into nolan batman mode. A mode I thought was celebrated in this regard.
I suppose he could have just gone the ninja academy explosion route with this warehouse, probably would have been less controversial, even if it meant martha's life as well(always did wonder what happened to that man he refused to kill in begins scene).

The ones he needed to? Batman could have dropped rubber bullets on those guys from his batwing. He killed them all for no reason. I thought he changed? He then takes a gun (in the warehouse) that's going off, rotates around the room, pointing it at each thugs head. Give me a break with this realization crap!

Nolan mode? Dead wrong. Bale's Batman never tried to murder thugs to make his job easier or because he was blood-thirsty. That scene was nothing like Bale's Batman. Now, the saving Martha scene with KGBEAST? That, i agree was closer to the Batman.

That scene in begins was before he became Batman, not 20 years into being Batman. And he didn't intend on killing everyone. It was a distraction, he made a point to save Ras' life, and there was enough time for them to get out. They chose not to flee. Plus, you guys want to throw excuses for every little thing Affleck does. Well, the excuse that Bale's Bruce Wayne was a rookie in his 20's, not even thinking about what symbol to use to become Batman...yeah it holds more water.

Rubber bullets would have done the trick in Batfleck's case.

 

[shauner111]

I think a better idea would have been before Batman was about to spear Superman, there's a puddle right next to Superman & Batman sees his own reflection. He sees what he's doing & what he's become. He hates how he looks. He then looks at Superman and sees the same frightened look Bruce had as a kid. He realizes what he's doing.

That's how it should have ended

10 times better.

 

[Cats]

I think a better idea would have been before Batman was about to spear Superman, there's a puddle right next to Superman & Batman sees his own reflection. He sees what he's doing & what he's become. He hates how he looks. He then looks at Superman and sees the same frightened look Bruce had as a kid. He realizes what he's doing.

That's how it should have ended

I don't mind it ending that way, but I can also imagine the number of jokes that would arise from such an end ("Mirror, mirror on the wall"). It should've been a World's Finest movie, right from the start. But if they absolutely had to fight, Martha plot is the way to go.

 

[shauner111]

From where i'm sitting, a second Man of Steel would have been perfect and more logical. Everything down to the title of this movie felt forced.

Bruce and Diana without suiting up. No footage of the other metahumans, just references to a few being out there. Superman fights Lex in a suit, or a Metallo/Doomsday type creation. Supes hands Bruce the kryptonite after Lex is tossed in prison, because he trusts him the most. Why? Because Bruce would have been the most level-headed person in the entire movie. Lex would be jealous beyond belief, and angry with Superman, but he's older, charming, and his motivations are quite clear and understandable for a while. Until he takes it too far and shows his true colors in private. Someone who has a personal connection to the city, but is too greedy/power-hungry to put Metropolis before anything else once we reach the finish. Tell a story of Lex and Bruce, two 40 something rich men who have ancestors that meant so much to their respective cities. But Luthor lets his darkness get the better of him, makes incredibly selfish decisions in the end. Something Bruce refuses to do. Looking back i would have liked it if i felt engaged with Lex Luthor, but then incredibly frustrated and angry with his choices. Eisenberg was just a cartoon character from the start which made it clear really quick that i can't take this character seriously. Or his motivations, if he had any.

 

[Kanye West]

From where i'm sitting, a second Man of Steel would have been perfect and more logical. Everything down to the title of this movie felt forced.

Bruce and Diana without suiting up. No footage of the other metahumans, just references to a few being out there. Superman fights Lex in a suit, or a Metallo/Doomsday type creation. Supes hands Bruce the kryptonite after Lex is tossed in prison, because he trusts him the most. Why? Because Bruce would have been the most level-headed person in the entire movie. Lex would be jealous beyond belief, and angry with Superman, but he's older, charming, and his motivations are quite clear and understandable for a while. Until he takes it too far and shows his true colors in private. Someone who has a personal connection to the city, but is too greedy/power-hungry to put Metropolis before anything else once we reach the finish. Tell a story of Lex and Bruce, two 40 something rich men who have ancestors that meant so much to their respective cities. But Luthor lets his darkness get the better of him, makes incredibly selfish decisions in the end. Something Bruce refuses to do. Looking back i would have liked it if i felt engaged with Lex Luthor, but then incredibly frustrated and angry with his choices. Eisenberg was just a cartoon character from the start which made it clear really quick that i can't take this character seriously. Or his motivations, if he had any.

what do you think his motivations were?

 

[Elayis]

I've since seen the movie for a second time after previously voting that I had only seen it once. At the time, I didn't intend to see it again because I was so letdown after that first viewing. However, my theater was playing it in IMAX 2D so I figured I'd give it another shot (can't stand 3D).

The second time was much better. Now that I knew what to expect, I could let go of my preconceptions. Regardless of whether or not I would've done things differently, this was the movie we got and I feel it's important to judge the movie on its own terms.

The pacing didn't bother me as much, the dream sequences weren't quite as jarring and the ending was now acceptable. The Martha bit is still irksome, but less so (I can tolerate it), but Superman had virtually nothing to do (I mean, come on! he's a title character), Wallace Keefe's subplot was still underdeveloped (as was Finch) and Lex Jr is still not what I want from Luthor. Eisenberg does fine for what the role calls for, but that's not the Lex I've always pictured in my head (or in the comics). Oh, well. Win some, lose some.

First time I gave it a 6/10, now I'm leaning between a 7-7.5. Very similar to The Force Awakens (which I gave a 7.5/10, 4th best SW picture after the originals) in that it has significant problems (as well as lazy & puzzling story decisions), but overall the good outweighs the bad. I'd probably still give TFA the edge, if only because the new characters are so much fun to watch.

 

[Jaxon]

I've since seen the movie for a second time after previously voting that I had only seen it once. At the time, I didn't intend to see it again because I was so letdown after that first viewing. However, my theater was playing it in IMAX 2D so I figured I'd give it another shot (can't stand 3D).

The second time was much better. Now that I knew what to expect, I could let go of my preconceptions. Regardless of whether or not I would've done things differently, this was the movie we got and I feel it's important to judge the movie on its own terms.

The pacing didn't bother me as much, the dream sequences weren't quite as jarring and the ending was now acceptable. The Martha bit is still irksome, but less so (I can tolerate it), but Superman had virtually nothing to do (I mean, come on! he's a title character), Wallace Keefe's subplot was still underdeveloped (as was Finch) and Lex Jr is still not what I want from Luthor. Eisenberg does fine for what the role calls for, but that's not the Lex I've always pictured in my head (or in the comics). Oh, well. Win some, lose some.

First time I gave it a 6/10, now I'm leaning between a 7-7.5. Very similar to The Force Awakens (which I gave a 7.5/10, 4th best SW picture after the originals) in that it has significant problems (as well as lazy & puzzling story decisions), but overall the good outweighs the bad. I'd probably still give TFA the edge, if only because the new characters are so much fun to watch.

I think over time TFA will suffer in people's views. It's just that the prequels were so off that this seemed much higher than it really is. TFA is gets very boring on repeat viewings. BvS gets better on repeat viewings and I think once people swallow their pride a little bit I think the final result will be a much more positive outcome for BvS, especially after JL1.