BvS Have you seen the movie multiple times? If yes, has your opinion changed?

Discussion, is that what that was.

Anyway in the spirit of keeping the thread on topic, I've seen the movie all of three times. Twice on the theatrical cut, and once on the Ultimate Cut. It didn't change my opinion. The Ultimate Cut didn't improve the movies main problems, and in all honesty all it did was make a weak movie 30 minutes longer. The only way this movie would be improved is with a total script overhaul. The actors, minus Eisenberg, are all solid. They just need better scripts and direction.
 
Point proven.

I personally felt it made a good film great, the actors were all solid (including Eisenberg).

What did you think of his Lex? I always see bad things about him; I got what they were going for and I didn't hate it and felt he was effective but that it would have been a better fit to go a little more traditional but definitely not the Donner or Singer Lex.
 
What did you think of his Lex? I always see bad things about him; I got what they were going for and I didn't hate it and felt he was effective but that it would have been a better fit to go a little more traditional but definitely not the Donner or Singer Lex.

On first viewing it was abit jarring for me (although I was at a midnight 3D showing, two things that I hate tiredness and 3D so that didn't help my viewing experience lol). On second watching and then subsequent viewing's I loved his take and what they were going for. I really noticed all his little quirks the second time, like how he fell apart infront of the crowd at his party etc. I think what they did was a reinvention like Ledgers Joker was and it totally worked.
 
On first viewing it was abit jarring for me (although I was at a midnight 3D showing, two things that I hate tiredness and 3D so that didn't help my viewing experience lol). On second watching and then subsequent viewing's I loved his take and what they were going for. I really noticed all his little quirks the second time, like how he fell apart infront of the crowd at his party etc. I think what they did was a reinvention like Ledgers Joker was and it totally worked.

Exactly this. The first time I saw BvS, I actually hated EisenLex but on repeat viewings it totally changed and now I love his take on the character.

I really want to see what Jesse brings to the table when he tones down his quirks and becomes a more classic Lex Luthor in JL.
 
I still hate Eisenberg take. Nothing any good about it. It not a reinvention it just bad version that written like he silly cartoon villain. Eisenberg miscast too that not help.
 
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I have warmed to Lex a little, but overall I didn't like the take they went with. I knew what they were going for going in, and I don't think it's a bad performance acting wise. I just think they went too far with it. Of the villains in the movie, Doomsday is the one growing on me the most.
 
I have warmed to Lex a little, but overall I didn't like the take they went with. I knew what they were going for going in, and I don't think it's a bad performance acting wise. I just think they went too far with it. Of the villains in the movie, Doomsday is the one growing on me the most.
i think if an older famous actor play this Lex, they will buy him instantly.
 
Watching it a couple times....feelings are unchanged. I just don't like it. Wouldn't watch it a third time. I don't think it's a horrible film, but it's just not enjoyable to watch.

As to Lex...yeah I still think it was horrible. It's like if you mixed the cartoon version of the Joker with the live action movie version of the Riddler. I don't know what they were thinking here. It's not even the acting (though I don't think this was the right casting) it was the direction he was told to go in.

In the end clearly I wasn't who the movie was aiming for. Didn't really care for their interpretation of Batman or Superman. Batman having fallen so far due to what he's been through that if Superman decided to take Batman to jail during their first encounter...it would have been reasonable. He killed god knows how many people during that chase. And still don't really love where they went with Superman in the past couple movies. Though maybe dying will straighten him out.

Wonder Woman was nice though. Good casting. I'm looking forward to her movie.

I don't dislike it any more than I did when I saw it in theaters and as a whole I think it is ok. Just don't enjoy watching it and won't worry too much about that.
 
Recently I traveled to the UK, which requires a stop-over in Singapore.

There's a free movie theatre at Changi airport and both coming from and going to the UK, the film that was playing was the Director's cut of Batman V Superman.

Now the first time I saw the film, I felt a massive sense of disappointment.

Anyway, after 2 subsequent viewings, I've formed the opinion that if you watch the first 30-45 minutes (up until the Day of the Dead Superman rescue), and the last 45 or so minutes (from the Batman v Superman fight, which is still too short, right to the end), well, then you get a pretty decent film.

Sadly, that means that about an hour of the film is complete dross and should have been left out.

- the Lex Luthor character is still ridiculous, and not in a good way.
- the Africa sub-plot, Capitol bombing, and Superman's introspective five-minute self-imposed exile, Clark Kent's bat-investigation etc.
actually kind of get in the way of the story, rather than add to it.

I suppose some would argue that that other stuff is necessary, but I don't think so. So, only watching the first and last acts of the film, it's pretty good indeed. Again, just an opinion I have formed,
 
I haven't bothered to re-watch the theatrical cut. The bad editing job done on it ruined it for me.

But I've watched the ultimate cut a few more times, and have grown to like it more now.

First time i saw BVS: UC, I felt it was alright. But now my opinion is close to it being a "pretty good movie!"

I enjoyed it more once I let go of the fact this will not be the traditional DC universe and characters we are use to:

- This version of Superman is not accepted by the world as a hero right away and has his own doubts and conflicts ( I like this because it shows even though he's an alien, he is probably the most "human" of all the big players in this).
This is a hero who struggles with his place in the world -- probably not everyone's cup of tea when portraying a Superman.
But it felt realistic to me if someone with powers like this was suddenly revealed to the world.

- A Batman that is less heroic and willing to kill. I just accepted that this is not the mainstream version but a combination of Frank Miller's batman (old and bitter) + 1939 batman (kills criminals in the heat of battle).

- Lex is a young and jittery punk - I can see people not liking this version, but I think it fit the story they were trying to tell.
This version of Lex is a good physical contrast from the heroes and makes an interesting foil to them.
We already got the Donner, DCAU, and Smallville versions of Lex. This is something more outside the box.

^ I liked how all 3 of these main players were basically trying to grapple with the legacies their fathers left to them.

Overall this is a more dark and deconstructionist version of the DC universe that probably fit more with stuff from the 1980-90s comics.
It's not the definitive DC universe for me, but i like it as a good sorta Elseworlds version of it.

The final fight between the trinity and Doomsday was just OK.
It was not the spectacular pay-off I expected with the good (but slow) build-up of the plot right up until then.
But it maybe because the final fight in Man of Steel between Superman and Zod was so much better realized and more badass to me! So i expected better.
Wonder Woman, nonetheless, was awesome in the final battle! She is to BvS as Spiderman was in Captain America: Civil War.

Rewatching BVS: UC again, I still think it has pacing issues and plot contrivances, but I very much appreciate the story's ambitions all the more now.

If only Snyder and the writers took more time to fine-tune the script, I think we would've gotten a great movie. But instead we got something that was trying to achieve greatness but fell short, but still ended up being pretty good.
 
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i think if an older famous actor play this Lex, they will buy him instantly.

Age was a little bit of an issue with me, it just seemed weird to see these big tough men taking this little punk seriously. Yet at the same time not taking him seriously will end up being a problem for anybody. It was his first interaction with Superman that it all came together for me in regards to Lex and I put him in my "good villain" category. Just the way he connected Clark to Satan and Martha to a witch was just mind blowing.

On numerous viewings the only thing In have liked less and less is Lois Lane. There are just some little things she could have done to combat the damsel in distress label people are now trying to tie her to.
 
I haven't bothered to re-watch the theatrical cut. The bad editing job done on it ruined it for me.

But I've watched the ultimate cut a few more times, and have grown to like it more now.

First time i saw BVS: UC, I felt it was alright. But now my opinion is close to it being a "pretty good movie!"

I enjoyed it more once I let go of the fact this will not be the traditional DC universe and characters we are use to:

- This version of Superman is not accepted by the world as a hero right away and has his own doubts and conflicts ( I like this because it shows even though he's an alien, he is probably the most "human" of all the big players in this).
This is a hero who struggles with his place in the world -- probably not everyone's cup of tea when portraying a Superman.
But it felt realistic to me if someone with powers like this was suddenly revealed to the world.

- A Batman that is less heroic and willing to kill. I just accepted that this is not the mainstream version but a combination of Frank Miller's batman (old and bitter) + 1939 batman (kills criminals in the heat of battle).

- Lex is a young and jittery punk - I can see people not liking this version, but I think it fit the story they were trying to tell.
This version of Lex is a good physical contrast from the heroes and makes an interesting foil to them.
We already got the Donner, DCAU, and Smallville versions of Lex. This is something more outside the box.

^ I liked how all 3 of these main players were basically trying to grapple with the legacies their fathers left to them.

Overall this is a more dark and deconstructionist version of the DC universe that probably fit more with stuff from the 1980-90s comics.
It's not the definitive DC universe for me, but i like it as a good sorta Elseworlds version of it.

The final fight between the trinity and Doomsday was just OK.
It was not the spectacular pay-off I expected with the good (but slow) build-up of the plot right up until then.
But it maybe because the final fight in Man of Steel between Superman and Zod was so much better realized and more badass to me! So i expected better.
Wonder Woman, nonetheless, was awesome in the final battle! She is to BvS as Spiderman was in Captain America: Civil War.

Rewatching BVS: UC again, I still think it has pacing issues and plot contrivances, but I very much appreciate the story's ambitions all the more now.

If only Snyder and the writers took more time to fine-tune the script, I think we would've gotten a great movie. But instead we got something that was trying to achieve greatness but fell short, but still ended up being pretty good.


Good points. :up:
 
Age was a little bit of an issue with me, it just seemed weird to see these big tough men taking this little punk seriously. Yet at the same time not taking him seriously will end up being a problem for anybody. It was his first interaction with Superman that it all came together for me in regards to Lex and I put him in my "good villain" category. Just the way he connected Clark to Satan and Martha to a witch was just mind blowing.

On numerous viewings the only thing In have liked less and less is Lois Lane. There are just some little things she could have done to combat the damsel in distress label people are now trying to tie her to.

I never get "damsel in distress" with Lois. They make her smart and brave, not stupid and just riding the back of Superman being around.
 
The new cut save some things. But still a very disappointing movie for me, sorry :(
 
I want to do my own cut of the film just so I'm not so disappointed in what Snyder and WB outputted.
 
Over the past year or so, I've watched The Dark Knight Trilogy, Watchmen, Man Of Steel, and the Ultimate BvS Cut multiple times. I've seen all movies probably five times, at least. They are easily my favorite CBMs, with the three Cap movies, DOFP, and maybe Iron Man ranked up there as well.

Gotta say, I've come to appreciate MoS and BvS more and more with each viewing. I really love the story they're telling with Clark's journey to becoming Superman, the public's acceptance of him, and the way they tied all that into Batman's arc of rediscovering his purpose. And the fact they managed to bring Wonder Woman in and begin her arc is pretty impressive.

Superman is supposed to represent Hope, the best in humankind. I think it's great that they showed him struggling with his role, like Jesus weeping in the Garden, struggling to accept his role. I think you need to have that darkness to make Superman's light shine, and the fact that they included Batman within that darkness, to give him a character arc that is integral to the arc of Superman's relationship to humankind, I think was brilliant. One of my favorite things is the way the movie started out in darkness "What falls is fallen", at a funeral that Bruce can't face, falling into the earth, the shells and pearls falling, and they ended the film with Bruce at a funeral, with the imagery of falling shells and falling dirt, and they answer the first statement "What falls is fallen" with a shot of the dirt rising, there is always Hope. It was really brilliantly done, and they also managed to include so much that could be interpreted as referencing the golden age of comics, the characters being our mythological figures (so many literary references to other mythologies, including Jesus and King Arthur, among others), and asking the question if they could still mean something in a world that is so different and morally complex than the one they were created in ("This means something"), not to mention making the film an allegory for how divisive the world is now on every major issue. How can you not give them props for that?

And the film is shot and scored beautifully. Zack Snyder has a real eye for comic book movies, in a way that they look grand, like Kubrick or Coppola directing a serious film (many will disagree, but that is just my opinion, the vibe I get from the film, similar to TDKT, it makes it feel more epic). And it's pretty damn amazing to me, if you search and see all the visual references, not only to comic book panels, but so many other great films throughout the history of cinema. Like a lot of the dialogue (particularly Luthor's), all of these references are meant to evoke our collective mythology as a culture, it's meant to say "These characters were created by us, they are meant to reflect something about us, and inspire something good in us" and ask the question "Can they still inspire us?" Sure, they inspired me when I was a kid, and the world was very simple, but what if they were put into the world I live in now? There was so much thought out into every scene and frame, and all of the themes and arcs come together and fit together.


And the action is fantastic. I love Nolan's trilogy, but the warehouse scene has his films beat in terms of any hand to hand combat scenes. It's great, the choreography and the frenetic energy, the way Batman has to struggle to take on these multiple trained killers, one guy gets a shot off to the head, Bats gets stabbed, it really shows how tough you gotta be to be Batman, that it's no cakewalk engaging multiple opponents.

And the casting of most is spot on, Irons plays a great Alfred much different than any we've seen yet. Fishburn makes for a Perry White I actually care about and am interested in.Cavil is the perfect Superman, Gadot is the perfect Wonder Woman, and Affleck is the perfect Batman, and their looks are better than any live incarnation and spot on accurate to the comics.

I understand not liking the film if it doesn't appeal to your particular tastes or meet your expectations of a CBM or Superman/Batman characterization, but the way so many people are just talking as if it's a fact, the movie is just obviously bad or stupid, or Snyder is a bad director. To me, it's a bit petty and unfair.

Any criticism, really, can be applied to other films in the genre that don't get nearly as scrutinized. For example, Batman's killing by proxy. In Batman Begins, to save the life of a man who is going to be executed, he straight up kills everybody in the place by proxy, including the man who is chained up, only saving the guy who had a speaking role, and he says himself "You're not Ra's Al Hhul, I watched him die." If Affleck had done something like that, it would've got ripped to shreds.

Okay, I do think some of the criticisms are fair, but not nearly to the point people make them out to be when you compare it with other films in the genre.

The Martha moment, to me, the only problem was that it felt unnatural and forced the way Clark said it. But it connects to Batman's story arc andbhis past, and I think it's pretty brilliant to use that connection between both men's mothers, they were both created by their parents, Clark is so innately good because of the influence his parents had on him, and Bruce is so broken because of the absence of his parents, and the way they connected it to Batman's origin (Martha was a trigger word that bought back his PTSD and gave him a moment of clarity, it's not as stupid like "Our mom's have the same name, let's be friends" as people make it out to be.


EisenLex is a criticism I understand, and Superman not being able to explain the situation to Batman, and Alex's plan was a bit out there, fair enough, they could have changed those things. But it's not near as bad as people say, as if it ruins the entire movie. It almost seems like the political arguments you see on social media, people just can't wait to throw stones at any criticism they can find of the other party, but when it's their party, they just ignore or brush it off as not that big a deal, in comparison.

It just irks me to think that all the over the top criticisms could have WB panicking and switching the direction and tone, or making Snyder take a step back. But I know no matter how much I argue, people aren't going to change opinions, and that's fine. We all have different expectations and things we appreciate in a narrative. I find it similar to The Sopranos, in that it makes some unconvential narrative choices, a lot of symbolism, and a lot that leaves things open to interpretation or your imagination. And some people don't like that style, and that's fine. I, for one, having something to chew on, peel back layers, read interpretations and analyses. Love it or not, people are talking about this film after the fact way more than probably any other CBM


I kinda wish they had a different Lex, and maneuvered the conflict between Batman and Superman and the Martha moment a little more digestible, so people wouldn't have as much ammunition. But I think Snyder is a fantastic director, any of the problems I would say came from the writing. I can't wait to see what he does with Justice League. I really hope it goes over well, so we can all get more excited for DCEU's future. Hopefully Wonder Woman can help start that train moving forward. And I can only imagine how great Affleck's Batman solo will be. But, I can't help but feel a lot of folks already have it in their head that they're not gonna like anything with Snyder's name. But I hope I will be proven wrong on that.


Also in definitely not a fanboy or Kool Aid drinker, deluding myself into thinking the film is good. I'm a pretty fair judge of films and I mainly like thoughtful movies, I'm not big on mindless CGI popcorn movies. There's a lot I like about the Marvel and X films, but they don't appeal to me as much as these DC films, I feel like there's not very much beneath the surface, which is fine, but I like the direction DCEU is headed. Sorry for my lengthy post
 
Other than the last paragraph I totally agree with everything you say. I think this movie gets way too much hate. Yes it has things that could be improved and should have been done better, but so does every CBM. I have enjoyed what the DCCU has given us so far. I do think they arent the only ones that go a bit deeper than surface level but the rest of your post is spot on.

Regarding BvS, with both your praises and your criticisms we are totally on the same page.
 
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I've seen both the theatrical and ultimate cut multiple times and my opinion of the film has remained unchanged. I've enjoyed the film since my first viewing. I will not understand the harsh criticism. It wasn't the best movie, I'll give you that, but I was entertained and that's really all that matters to me.
 
I really love the ideas presented in the film. I especially enjoyed them trying the idea of American media figures seeing the existence of Superman as contratversial because his abilities put humanity down a notch on the food chain. I saw it as Batman and Lex Luthor reacting to this in similar ways and dealing with it through different methods. I really loved how the Kentucky senator, simply trying to be fair to the divisive views of the country about whether he was a good or bad thing, was made into a political pawn because she disagreed with a corporate head. I thought it was clever how they did much of the film, and like the Dark Knight, presented a new and more realistic way of perceiving superheroes.

That said, every time I watch this movie, I wish they had gotten someone more skilled I'm presenting these ideas to write and direct it. I also could do without Batfleck.
 
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I've probably watched the original cut 5 times and the UC 4 more, and honestly every time I watch it I like it more.

It's a flawed movie, but I simply don't understand the vitriol it gets.

Still not a fan of this take on Lex, but what are you gonna do.
 
I just watched it again this week. I have to admit that like MOS it's really really close to being what we wanted out of the film. At it's worst it's more awkward that outright bad. At this point I'm hoping people can talk rationally about the film now that the initial I'll say disappointment has passed.

Batman would react to an initial encounter with Superman that way. That's when his prep time would've started. He's skeptical and guarded and likes contingency plans. Putting him at the Battle of Metropolis just makes a lot of sense as does most of the first act of the film.

Clark was raised as a boy scout. I can see why he'd take issue with Batman's methods. I can also see why he'd be interested in him. At the same time he's still trying to do the

The sentiment around the country/world about being skeptical of Superman I get as well. He'd only been around for 18-24 months at that point. People didn't know what to make of him, and politicians were scared because there was no defense against him if he decided to disagree with something they did.

The issues I have though remain unchanged:

First and foremost Lex. This version was just not Lex. Lex is cold and calculating not awkward and jumpy. Plus his plan to have Superman fight Batman just seemed so out of place. Recommendation: Change the characterization of Lex and cut out the kidnapping of Clark's Mom.

Bruce was moving in the direction of prepping for Superman from the moment he saw him and the destruction that followed. It gave him pause and made him question things larger than just criminals in Gotham. When Supes called him out while he was pursuing the Kryptonite you knew Bruce would retaliate. Martha was the awkward part though. But I don't have a good way to get the 2 of them to stop other than potentially the ship w/o the kidnapping, and Batman realizing there are going to be times the world needs Superman's help. Recommendation: Cut Superman dream & Flash dream. Find a better way/reason to stop the fight between Batman and Superman.

Doomsday/Zodsday. Ok well the whole Death of Kal-El 18-24 months after he appears is rushed. That Ship and Lex Could've produced any number of other "monsters". You can't open with Doomsday and you can't make him secondary the way that they did. Doomsday has to be earned. He's one that you build towards after you've established the Justice League, and he's one that the entire league takes on until Superman makes the ultimate scarifies after we've seen several Superman appearances. Recommendation: Give Doomsday a different name. Don't kill Superman in battle.

The only remaining question I have I guess is can justice league make this a better film. The way for me anyway this sort of made MOS better.
 
I've watched it three or four times now. It's gone up in my estimation, from a 6.5/10 when I first saw it to an 8. Some things still jar (Adams' Lois, Doomsday/Death of Superman too soon, generally confusing editing), but there's enough of what I like to make me happy to rewatch it. Eisenberg's grown on me too.
 
The Ultimate Cut just gets more enjoyable every time I watch it. When I first saw the theatrical cut at the cinema I just felt strange about the whole experience. I knew I'd liked what I saw but I wasn't sure I loved it. Seeing it for a second time in theatres helped and the UC fixed a lot of the films problems. It's not a perfect film by any stretch I think it's somewhere around 8-8.5/10 overall.
 

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