The Guard said:
I don't care if you read the script or not. I care if you (or others) make broad generalizations about how faithful/serious the material is when you haven't gotten an accurate picture. I don't believe I ever chastised you for not spoiling yourself.
If I can recall, you said that I assumed that this movie is not being faithful at all to the Transformers mythology even though I haven't read the script, that because I haven't read the script that its my fault. First, I never said this whole movie is unfaithful to the Transformers mythology. I don't have enough knowledge of the story or characterization to know that...but a couple of the designs sure stray far enough from any incarnation for me to call them out on it. And as far as me being at fault for not reading the script...I don't consider me wanting to remain spoiler free from the story a "fault".
Completely-different looking? As in "One is a cartoon, 2D image with basic animation on it, and one is a live-action giant robot with many working parts and movements"? I would never want to see the cartoon designs onscreen beyond the basic ideas. They're inherently pretty silly looking, and almost generic in some ways. Just like the comic book outfits many superheroes and villains wear. The movie Transformers seem to be a lot more intricate, and a lot more alien and feral. I like the concept, even if I'm not thrilled with all the designs.
The design of Optimus Prime is a prime example...pun intended. He still maintains resemblence to previous incarnations of Prime while still looking fresh and modern for live action...not too hard no? In fact, there is a picture comparison of G1 Prime with Bay Prime, they look like cousins. If you put a pic comparison of the two Megatrons (hell, ANY Megatron compared to Bay Megatron) and they looking nothing alike. I'll get to your similarities later.
That depends on if they insist that given Transformers have to look exactly like one or two designs they've seen in the show and comics or if it's enough to have elements of those designs. If its the former, then yes, some will be alienated, and it will be their resistance to any significant visual/story changes for a new medium that alienates them. There will be a few of them. There always are. People who think that the bigscreen image or story changing somehow sullies what they already love about the source material. I'm betting however that most Trans-fans go with the flow when everyone else starts talking about how cool things look on the big screen. It's what most fanboys do.
Of course...that's the nature of the fanboy beast. Hell, my few issues with this movie are not going to prevent me from paying my hard earned money for a ticket...but if I'm not happy with something then there's no harm in voicing my concerns a little. Call it venting.
Because it's a freaking movie adaption. This is what happens when material is adapted, both storywise and visually. A lot of creative minds and a lot of important people have a say, and material rarely remains exactly the same as you knew it to begin with. That's the nature of the adaption process. Transformers doesn't get to skip over this adaption process just because it's Transformers. Hell, if Dickens novels can undergo major changes in adaptation, so can this.
There are a lot of creative minds (read: artists) working on what they view as a very complex story and design process. In some ways, they are building a franchise, while trying to bring something new to the game, so their careers don't get stagnant, and they don't go home at night feeling like uncreative hacks. Would you ask artists to simply copy someone else's work, or to limit themselves to only simple designs or a pre-existing story concept if the overall movie concept didn't neccessarily call for it?
There are adaptations that have remained more faithful to the source material and still have succeeded in the box office. They have become lucrative movie franchises that can succeed totally separate of the original material they originated from. Were they 100% replicas of the source material? No. But that's not what I'm asking for.
Either. Energon's taken many forms, and had many uses in the Transformers mythology. This is the point. That the movie is bringing in one of the most important factors of their mythos.
Even if they're calling it The AllSpark.
Well, there's a whole other thread about the "Allspark". I'm not too concerned about it since I've recently learned it is separate from the Matrix of Leadership.
That's absurd. We're to judge an entire production on the ranting and opinions of one man? Sorry, don't buy it. Never have. A movie is a group effort. One person choosing to voice their thoughts on it does not tell me how an entire studio/production team feels about it.
When he is a veteran producer who at the time was the only one speaking about a movie then yes, he is the voice of the production. He has been making movies long enough to know that when someone makes a comment about a movie, and they are part of the team responsible for making that movie, then that person has just given more or less and official statement. Don needs a PR person if he doesn't want to continue doing damage control. Look at what happened to Singer...when he said something to the effect of, "This is the closest thing I've done to a chick flick" he didn't literally say, "This IS a chick flick" but he might as well have because that's what the public remembers him saying.
No, it's not "wordplay". While it's clear that he wanted Bumblee to be a bug, and that he wanted several other aspects to be in the film, he never promised them, or said they were a done deal, or any of that. You can spout "wordplay" and "semantics" all you want, but in the end, unless you simply do not comprehend the English language, there's only one meaning you can glean from his actual words without reading a ton into them. He said "We're working on it". And just as saying that scientists are working on a cure for cancer doesn't mean they won't neccessarily be able to promise us one (though I'm sure it exists somewhere), Don Murphy saying they're working on getting the VW backing doesn't mean he can promise it.
When he makes statements like, "He HAS to be a VW bug" and then makes Bumblebee a camaro then it his words, "We're working on it" seem all for naught. Since you keep telling me to use my common sense then let me throw this at you. I can understand the reasons for them not being able to use a VW bug. But if they were working so hard on trying to get him to be a bug, then wouldn't the next logical step to go with a similar type vehicle? Which is of course a Camaro, right?
Really? What else has he "taken credit" for? Because I don't see him "taking credit" for a whole lot beyond being a fan of the material and listening to the fans a bit about things like Peter Cullen's involvement.
Why can't he take the blame? For what, exactly? Somehow causing you to misinterpret his statements and engage in false hope? Even if he came out and said "Yes, I said Bumblee has to be a bug and he isn't", it has nothing to do with what ended up happening in relation to his rapport with the fans. You (and others) seem to think it's somehow Don Murphy's fault that he essentially said "We hope Bumblebee will be a bug" and you got your hopes up and Bumblebee wasn't. When in fact this is your own blatant misinterpreation of Don's original statements into what you wanted to hear (not what was said), not some kind of deviant spreading of misinformation on his part.
It's entirely possible that this situation is going to happen again with Megatron's voice actor. It's the same concept. The studio representatives are saying "We've listened to you about Frank Welker, we've talked to him, he's been in, we all hope Frank Welker as Megatron will work out". No one has PROMISED the fans that Welker will be chosen to voice Megatron, but I guarantee you that when/if he ends up not being chosen, someone will go "They promised us Frank Welker as Megatron!"
When they haven't.
Its different. He's not going around saying, "Frank Welker HAS to be Megatron".
He said "We're working on it", and he expressed, in fairly obvious terms, that he thought Bumblebee should be a bug. Essentially, he stated an opinion (his and perhaps someone else's belief that Bumblebee should be a bug) and a fact (that the studio was working on getting permission from VW). He never promised anyone anything.
The previous paragraph is sort of a repetition of the one or two above so I'll disregard.
Bunk. Liam Neeson's Ra's Al Ghul in BATMAN BEGINS looked next to nothing like he did in the comics beyond a few basic design elements. Ra's Al Ghul in the comics wears expensive suits and capes/cloaks (often green or earth-tone ones) with ornamental attachments, and even swords. He does not tend to wear only "suits" (at least this is not the design people have come to know for him). And he has certain facial features/characteristics that Neeson's Al Ghul (as fantastic as he was in the movie) does not have. In fact, Ra's Al Ghul's decoy pretty much looked more like the comic book version of Ra's Al Ghul designwise than Neeson did. The only similarity Liam Neeson's Ra's had to his comic book counterpart in terms of design elements? The basic design of his hair and mustache/beard...his fairly chiseled features, and his height/weight similarities. Now then...what seem to be the similarities that movie Megatron has to his comic book and show counterpart? Oh. His helmet (hair), his shoulders, his massive gun, and his height/weight similarities (as he does still seem to be a giant robot). And his coloring (he still looks to be silver/gray), so he's almost one or two up on Ra's Al Ghul in terms of design adaption.
You speak of "realistic tone". Fair enough. In the comics and show and movie, Megatron is a giant alien robot, yes? Then why the bloody hell would his legs be designed to look like Earth-people's bellbottoms as they were in the show, why would he have what can best be described as a "generic polygonic robot face", and why would be transform into a giant gun of all things? It's one thing to have issues with his fragmented/shattered look (who knows, that may become armor in battle or something, the angles of it suggest this could be the case, and we do know he has a "battle mode"), but to say the basics of his design aren't there makes little sense. It's just, as you said earlier, in a more "realistic" (or relevant) vein, if such a thing can be applied to the Transformers movie.
Let me borrow a tactic from xw2 and post a couple of pictures to speak on my behalf.
I see a lot of similarities in this picture:
clothes are non issue because I don't see a human not changing clothes in a realistic movie.
G1 Prime and his Bay movie counterpart visually resemble each other
As for this pic...I see no resemblence.
Welcome to the world of moviemaking. Very few designers want to rip off what has gone before. It depends on how much you want thim to resemble them. Some important key elements of Megatron's design ARE there. The size and color. The shoulders. The helmet. The big ass gun. Starscream's another story entirely.
Size and color...a 34' tall Megatron to a 28' Prime...that doesn't seem very faithful to original designs as in the past they have been similar heights in robot form.
Shoulders...what, because they are both wide?
Helmet...because they both have one doesn't make them resemble each other. If we go by your analogy then because they have 2 arms and 2 legs means they resemble each other.
Big ass gun...where? I don't see it...if they confirmed it then I need to see it before I judge it.
Starscream...*shakes head*
You assume it would be flamebait? Has anyone actually said to him. Say, Don, is this what you meant by this statement? Anyone? Of course then it's just him "spinning" what you obviously misinterpreted to begin with. I have half a mind to ask him. Seriously, link me to his board.
If you really want to then go for it. Hell, PM me if you're serious and I'll give you my login and password so that you don't even have to register. I just don't feel like going through the effort myself.
I reffered to the basics of the mythos. Not neccessarily the design aspects of Starscream. I think the basic elements of Megatron's design are still there.
I don't agree, but you're entitled to your opinion.
I'm sure they use spin tactics. I don't think every spin tactic is neccessarily "bad", and I don't think everything a studio says to defend their film is one. The tactics used thus far don't strike me as having that much "spin" to them. They've been pretty upfront about the changes that can be expected, and why certain changes have been made. the ONLY thing that might be taken as "spin" is Bay's reasoning for Optimus Prime being a different kind of semi cab in the film, but even that has value to it. It does give him some more height, be it 30 feet or 50 feet.
They said that a flatnose would have been 25 ft and that to make him a flatnose would make these "40-50 ft tall robot we're dealing with here". But the heights they put out gave him a whopping 3 feet on the 25 to make him a grand total of 28'. I have no idea what happened here, whether it is a mistake on Bay's part or damage control gone awry...but it is confusing.
It can easily be interpreted my way. Easily. It's not so easy to actually look at what he said, consider what the words mean in plain English, and go "Hey, he PROMISED us!" and find any proof for that in his actual statement.
It can easily be interpreted your way by YOU. I understand reading between the lines and common sense...but like I said...I'm sleepy. You win.
I have to ask then...what constitutes "heart" regarding Transformers for you? This isn't just a movie about giant robots fighting each other. There's a point behind it, and an energy to the story. A cliche, tired point, but a point nontheless. And there seems to be a lot of good drama to the movie, if a bit melodramatic. But anyone who's a Transformers fan to this point who actually condemns a Transformers movie forI melodrama is just an insanely large hypocrite.
I never said anything to the effect of, "This movie will be too melodramatic". Its a classic good vs evil story...but there have been great good vs evil movies that have kept the heart of the source material without going overboard. Maybe I'm basing my assumption on Bay's past movies too much, none of which had a lot of heart IMO. They've looked spectacular, and I have no doubt that this movie will redefine action and spectacle...but will it "feel" like a Transformers movie? We'll see.
Because there's a gray area, but swing too far into "trying to be faithful to the original designs", and you might as well just slap G1 on the screen and go "There. We copied it enough that fanboys are happy". If you can't accept any major design changes or concept changes, then I tend to think you pretty much just want them to look like G1 Transformers.
False...my acceptance of the current movie design of Optimus proves that I don't want an exact replica of G1. I just don't like current Megatron and Starscream. I also have an issue with Bumblebee wearing a gas mask but that's trivial whereas Megatron and Starscream and walking mistakes in my book.
So you want the G1 designs? Describe the kinds of designs you could live with. What would you like the movie versions of these characters to look like?
Add a few design changes they made to Optimus Prime to the Masterpiece Starscream and that's what I want.
It depends on if you ignore the helmet, the shoulders, the massive gun, the color/size, etc. If you put all those Transformers in a lineup and asked someone who Megatron was, I'll bet they'd be able to pick him out pretty easily.
Well, I did this...I asked my non-Transformer fan wife what she thought of this character, then I showed her movie Megatron. She knows that when I'm on this computer that I'm surfing this and other Transformer forums...I'm obssessed so she looks at me and says, "I have no idea". I told her it was Megatron for the movie and her reply was, "They're messing up, that doesn't look like Megatron". I know this is just one person, I don't really feel like doing a research study on who can recognize Megatron among a group of random people but that comment coming from a non-fan was adequate enough for me.
