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Is Captain America Marvel's Batman?

That's asinine. You can certainly have realism in comics. You can have realism in anything without it being a "front for post-modern deconstruction and gray morality." By the simple definition of the word "realistic," you're completely wrong.
The definition of the word "realistic," in a literary context, is "pertaining to, characterized by, or given to the representation in literature or art of things as they really are." "Things as they really are" has about zero-point-zero-point-dick-squat-nothing to do with superheroes in costumes.
 
If you were just trying to express yourself you could just say "I don't like Stan Lee" but instead you use terms like "corporate prostitution" because you're trying to get a rise out of people and then you get upset when people call you on it.
What if that's just how I feel about Stan Lee?

And your impressions of Stan Lee seem to be based on Kirby's rather narrow minded and distorted version of the person.
I've never read a word Kirby said about him. I hated Stan Lee the moment I first saw him in Mallrats, before I was a comic-book fan, because he was so obviously being a ****ty, money-grubbing, counterproductive "ambassador" for his medium, making comic book fans look like a bunch of nerd-losers who all look up fetishistically to writers and artists. Later, I read some of his actual writing when I got into comics. Even later, I came to understand the history of Marvel Comics, and the impact that Marvel had on the medium. I have never come across anything he has done that has made me like him.
 
I've never read a word Kirby said about him. I hated Stan Lee the moment I first saw him in Mallrats, before I was a comic-book fan, because he was so obviously being a ****ty, money-grubbing, counterproductive "ambassador" for his medium, making comic book fans look like a bunch of nerd-losers who all look up fetishistically to writers and artists. Later, I read some of his actual writing when I got into comics. Even later, I came to understand the history of Marvel Comics, and the impact that Marvel had on the medium. I have never come across anything he has done that has made me like him.

I like how you claim to like things from both companies. You're like fox news for DC. I really don't see how you could have seen mallrats of all things and just formed that opinion. Either you're some psychic movie guy that can read minds or you're lying. I'm mean if anything the "he was so obviously being a ****ty, money-grubbing, counterproductive "ambassador" for his medium, making comic book fans look like a bunch of nerd-losers who all look up fetishistically to writers and artists" would apply to smith, not lee.

Oh, don't kid yourself, there's plenty of performance enhancers being used in AAA.
 
Kitsune's Article said:
I leave it to you to decide whether Stan was smart or smarmy.
He was both. They're not mutually exclusive. In fact, while most smart people aren't smarmy, the majority of smarmy people are smart.

He started the "Merry Marvel Marching Society," a club with absolutely no goals, no ambitions, no intentions and no meetings, except within the pages of a Marvel Comic book.
Yes, a sick precursor to the equally sick Marvel Zombie and Make Mine Marvel ideas. The worst consumer culture had to offer, and we owe them to Stan Lee. Brand loyalty is ****ed up. If you love characters, that's one thing. But just being obsessive about a brand is ****ing weird and sick.

If someone said an issue sucked, Stan would grin and say ,"You can't hit one out of the park every week - but just you wait til the thrilltastic issue 13 hits the streets next month!"
Of course, when Dan DiDio tries to say something like that, everyone bashes him. And with good reason: it's ********. You don't get to cop out of a ****ty product that way.

Now, Kitsune, it's my turn to link to an article that pretty well captures what's wrong with Stan Lee: http://www.sequart.com/articles/?article=592
 
I really don't see how you could have seen mallrats of all things and just formed that opinion.
That was my opinion. I did not like him. The only superhero comic book I'd read had been the one where Superman died, and I'd read that in like first grade and had virtually no memory of it. At the time when I watched Mallrats, I didn't even know which companies published which characters. I actually thought Superman was a Marvel character. I was completely ignorant of comics. But I knew I didn't like that guy. And nothing that happened afterwards change my mind.

I'm mean if anything the "he was so obviously being a ****ty, money-grubbing, counterproductive "ambassador" for his medium, making comic book fans look like a bunch of nerd-losers who all look up fetishistically to writers and artists" would apply to smith, not lee.
Smith wasn't a comic-book guy to me at that point. He was a movie guy. Lee was a comic-book guy.

Oh, don't kid yourself, there's plenty of performance enhancers being used in AAA.
It's not nearly as bad.
 
That was my opinion. I did not like him.

How did you form that? I mean it was smith's wet dream to have lee in the movie, the lines were written by smith and the characters created by smith. So how did you magically see all that you read into the person in that one appearance?

The only superhero comic book I'd read had been the one where Superman died, and I'd read that in like first grade and had virtually no memory of it. At the time when I watched Mallrats, I didn't even know which companies published which characters. I actually thought Superman was a Marvel character. I was completely ignorant of comics. But I knew I didn't like that guy. And nothing that happened afterwards change my mind.

Smith wasn't a comic-book guy to me at that point. He was a movie guy. Lee was a comic-book guy.

Again I don't see how you read all that from the character. There's no basis for what you're saying, other than that you just had a "bad feeling" from lee playing lee, without any evidence to back it up. Actually you just showed that you've been prejudiced against lee from the start just cause you didn't like the look of him.

It's not nearly as bad.

Oh, so how much of steriods is alright? See I always thought cheating was cheating regardless of how much you're cheating. I thought you just made the argument for purism in comics, but now a little dirt is alright as long as you find it within acceptable levels?
 
How did you form that? I mean it was smith's wet dream to have lee in the movie, the lines were written by smith and the characters created by smith. So how did you magically see all that you read into the person in that one appearance? Again I don't see how you read all that from the character. There's no basis for what you're saying, other than that you just had a "bad feeling" from lee playing lee, without any evidence to back it up. Actually you just showed that you've been prejudiced against lee from the start just cause you didn't like the look of him.
Part of it was a bad feeling, part of it was the idea of Lee participating in a movie that treated his fans and customers so poorly. But my opinion of a writer as a person rarely, if ever, impacts my opinion of the writer's work. For example, Orson Scott Card and Frank Miller disgust me as people, and even Alan Moore and Grant Morrison kind of annoy me from time to time as people. But I love their work.

Stan Lee sucks as a person, and as a writer.

Oh, so how much of steriods is alright? See I always thought cheating was cheating regardless of how much you're cheating. I thought you just made the argument for purism in comics, but now a little dirt is alright as long as you find it within acceptable levels?
Actually, I've tried to explain earlier that I am very comfortable with certain kinds of realism in comics, such as realistic dialogue and characterization. The fact that I read comics at all would seem to suggest that.
 
The definition of the word "realistic," in a literary context, is "pertaining to, characterized by, or given to the representation in literature or art of things as they really are." "Things as they really are" has about zero-point-zero-point-dick-squat-nothing to do with superheroes in costumes.

The hell? You said, "you can't have realism" in comics. That's what I responded to. If one comic book has Bullseye hit a target because he has an enhanced skeleton and one comic book has Bullseye hit a target because he practiced a lot, well, the latter is more REALISTIC. How? Because as far as modern science is concerned, we don't really have adamantium infused spines. We do however have people who can do some cool things because they've practiced doing it over and over.

See how comics can have a sense of realism without mirroring actual real life?
 
But it isn't realism. It's just a little more realistic. And that's not necessarily a good thing. Because "more realistic" generally means deconstructed morality, and often apathetic amorality and Machiavellian "heroic" protagonists. I've actually heard people justify Tony Stark as a hero because he's so Machiavellian.

And why do we need "more realistic" in superhero comics? It's not like we can achieve anything even approaching true realism. So why not have Bullseye hit a target because he has an enhanced skeleton? What's the harm? Especially when less realism usually means a little less of the anti-morality that the last 20 years of comics have tried to feed us?
 
Part of it was a bad feeling, part of it was the idea of Lee participating in a movie that treated his fans and customers so poorly. But my opinion of a writer as a person rarely, if ever, impacts my opinion of the writer's work. For example, Orson Scott Card and Frank Miller disgust me as people, and even Alan Moore and Grant Morrison kind of annoy me from time to time as people. But I love their work.

But it was written by a fan? Lee was asked to do it by a fan and told which lines to say, so if anyone's treating fans poorly it's smith. All I was saying is you came in with a pretty major negative bias against lee and it shows. No one can completely put personal feelings aside, especially when they've already decided someone is "****ty, money-grubbing, counterproductive "ambassador" for his medium, making comic book fans look like a bunch of nerd-losers who all look up fetishistically to writers and artists." from just one movie appearance.

Stan Lee sucks as a person, and as a writer.

Yeah, we get that you think that. We get that you'll rave on and on about that. We get that you'll go out of your way to say that again and again while actually getting upset when someone calls you biased.

Actually, I've tried to explain earlier that I am very comfortable with certain kinds of realism in comics, such as realistic dialogue and characterization. The fact that I read comics at all would seem to suggest that.

Ok, I get that, but don't try to say something doesn't exist when it does. Don't say you prefer AAA to the majors cause the AAA players are more noble and true to the game. They just don't have enough money to buy all the steriods they'd like. They're not more pure or less sellouts, they just haven't had the chance to sell out or dirty themselves enough to merit negatives in your eyes.

You made the reference that while you enjoy the majors(marvel) you prefer AAA(DC) because no steriods and they play for love of the game, even though there are steriods and they play for a paycheck. So apparently it's just that there's this line in your mind that marvel crosses and DC avoids (but still has the same "sins") therefore you prefer DC. And that's your opinion and that's fine, but you're not really being very objective in this.
 
Yeah, we get that you think that. We get that you'll rave on and on about that. We get that you'll go out of your way to say that again and again while actually getting upset when someone calls you biased.
Wait, now it's my fault that I'd bring that up when that's what the **** we're talking about? We're having a conversation about what I think of Stan Lee, and I'm not supposed to say what I think of Stan Lee? I was explaining that my opinion of an artist or writer as a person basically doesn't factor into my opinion of them as a professional. With Stan Lee, I happen to despise both his personality and his professional identity.

Ok, I get that, but don't try to say something doesn't exist when it does. Don't say you prefer AAA to the majors cause the AAA players are more noble and true to the game. They just don't have enough money to buy all the steriods they'd like. They're not more pure or less sellouts, they just haven't had the chance to sell out or dirty themselves enough to merit negatives in your eyes.
It was a ******ed analogy from a Marvel zombie who probably hasn't read a DC comic in his life. So I ****ed around with it.

And that's your opinion and that's fine, but you're not really being very objective in this.
It's opinion. You can't be objective. You can certainly be objective enough to know that the idea that one company has more "maturity" than the other is ****ing stupid. But as for whether you enjoy the kind of maturity that has to tell you how mature it is, or the kind that just tells a story, that's a subjective question. And yes, I am subjective about it. Subjectively, I prefer good stories to stories that think they're revolutionizing the entirety of fiction by pitting Captain America against Iron Man for the three-hundredth time. Subjectively, I prefer heroic heroes to heroes that have lost all touch with any concept of morality and ethics. Subjectively, I prefer a bit of hope in my fiction, to a universe filled with despair, slowly dying societies, and nihilism, because I get the latter in real life; I read fiction as an escape from reality.

Subjectively, I prefer DC. It doesn't mean I don't read any Marvel, because I do read Marvel. It doesn't mean I hate Marvel, because I don't hate Marvel. It just means I like DC better, and that DC has so far failed to be better than Marvel for me only once, and even that was very brief and fleeting. Subjectively, I despise Stan Lee's unabashed capitalism and exploitation and mistreatment of his own fans and consumers, as well as his horrible hack writing. And subjectively, I despise Joe Quesada's apparent attitude that continuity is more a playground for him to **** around in than a guide for a shared universe, and his complete disrespect for the other professionals in his field (as shown through his horrendous lateness as a creator and his unwillingness to treat any story that's already been published as anything but a potential retcon victim.)

Subjectively, that's how I feel about those things. And when those things come up in subjective conversations, why am I a dick and a troll for saying those things? Is it just because I say them in the Marvel forum (the appropriate forum for saying them) and the zombies don't like confronting the historical and contemporary problems Marvel has unless they're easy straw-men like One More Day or the Clone Saga?
 
But it isn't realism. It's just a little more realistic. And that's not necessarily a good thing. Because "more realistic" generally means deconstructed morality, and often apathetic amorality and Machiavellian "heroic" protagonists. I've actually heard people justify Tony Stark as a hero because he's so Machiavellian.

What in the hell does having a more realistic approach to explaining powers have ANYTHING to do with deconstructed morality or Machiavellian protagonists? :huh:

And why do we need "more realistic" in superhero comics? It's not like we can achieve anything even approaching true realism. So why not have Bullseye hit a target because he has an enhanced skeleton? What's the harm? Especially when less realism usually means a little less of the anti-morality that the last 20 years of comics have tried to feed us?

Who says we need it? I didn't. I'm just saying that realism can and does exist in comics, which is something you've completely disagreed with, without giving a reasonable argument for.
 
Just and interesting bit from the Wiki article on Stan Lee.
Lee introduced the practice of including a credit panel on the splash page of each story, naming not just the writer and penciller but also the inker and letterer. Regular news about Marvel staff members and upcoming storylines was presented on the Bullpen Bulletins page, which (like the letter columns that appeared in each title) was written in a friendly, chatty style.
 
Just and interesting bit from the Wiki article on Stan Lee.
If I'd been claiming that Stan Lee didn't credit his coworkers, you'd really have something there, but since I didn't make that claim, it sort of undercuts your refutation of it.
 
If I'd been claiming that Stan Lee didn't credit his coworkers, you'd really have something there, but since I didn't make that claim, it sort of undercuts your refutation of it.
Actually the way you throw insults around, it's difficult to figure out actually what your claiming. For instance, I don't think there is any evidence for your claims that Stan Lee took money for sex.
 
Stan Made people feel like they were part of something.Like they were closer to the creators.Also who the **** cares if it's realistic or not as long as it's good.I really liked Sinestro corps.Is it realistic?No but fun.Do I Like Scapled and is it realistic?Yes and Yes.This realistic thing is getting way out of hand.That's not what matters.What matters is whether the story is fun and entertaining.Also I forgot who said it but having things of your favorite characters in your room ain't got any effect on anything.I have **** of TMNT,Spidey,Batman and even Moon Knight in my room.And I'm proud of it.I'm proud of being a Comic book Fan.I'll never get why people get all down on themselves or others because they like comics?:huh:
 
The definition of the word "realistic," in a literary context, is "pertaining to, characterized by, or given to the representation in literature or art of things as they really are." "Things as they really are" has about zero-point-zero-point-dick-squat-nothing to do with superheroes in costumes.

Oh, now there's where I'd disagree whole heartedly. To say that any kind of fiction has nothing to do with things as they really are is removing the most important functions of fiction. It's a mirror, held up to us to show ourselves in all our terrible glory. It gives us a glimpse of what we might be capable of achieving, and how far we could conceivably fall, wrapped in the easy to swallow sugar coating of "a made up story." If a writer makes a super hero story and they want to make it as realistic as possible, using costumes that look like they're made from real world materials and citing real world science and philosophy and whatnot for the sake of their story, then I'm all for it. If, by the same token, they want to make it as cheesy and ridiculous as possible for the sake of the metaphor, then that would be great too. Super heroes are a tool by which a story teller can craft a good story, and to place arbitrary limitations on how they can use that tool cheapens the craft.
 
Actually the way you throw insults around, it's difficult to figure out actually what your claiming. For instance, I don't think there is any evidence for your claims that Stan Lee took money for sex.
There's also no evidence that I meant "corporate prostitution" to be taken literally. I'm not the first person to use "prostitute" or a derivation of the word as a metaphor.

Stan Made people feel like they were part of something.Like they were closer to the creators.
I'd rather have good stories that respect me and respect the characters, than ******** pandering.

I'll never get why people get all down on themselves or others because they like comics?
Neither will I. I personally don't get into the merchandising part. I've never really been into merch of any kind. I think I had one Nirvana poster, one Doors poster, and possibly a Star Wars poster when I was a kid. But to me, it was always more about the actual art than about the merch surrounding it. Most of my decor is just like ironic quirky things or found objects.

But I think it's really sad how self-loathing so many of us have been forced to become. Everyone's always trying to justify the comics they read as being "realistic," or "mature," or "adult." **** that, man. Who the hell said being adult was such a good thing? I don't know about you, but I enjoyed being a kid, and if enjoying superhero comic books for what they are makes me childish, then that's ****ing fine with me. I loved being a child, and I'd love to be again. So **** Punisher MAX. I'll take Action Comics.
 
Oh, now there's where I'd disagree whole heartedly. To say that any kind of fiction has nothing to do with things as they really are is removing the most important functions of fiction. It's a mirror, held up to us to show ourselves in all our terrible glory. It gives us a glimpse of what we might be capable of achieving, and how far we could conceivably fall, wrapped in the easy to swallow sugar coating of "a made up story." If a writer makes a super hero story and they want to make it as realistic as possible, using costumes that look like they're made from real world materials and citing real world science and philosophy and whatnot for the sake of their story, then I'm all for it. If, by the same token, they want to make it as cheesy and ridiculous as possible for the sake of the metaphor, then that would be great too. Super heroes are a tool by which a story teller can craft a good story, and to place arbitrary limitations on how they can use that tool cheapens the craft.
That's not quite what I was referring to. Maturity and realism in plotting, characterization, dialogue, and themes is fine. But mistaking maturity and realism for postmodern deconstruction of morality, first of all, is a mistake. And secondly, deluding oneself into believing that superhero fiction can truly achieve "realism" is a mistake that will only lead to self-loathing on the part of the fans, and to disappointment. Because a story about a guy who can fart lightning and sneeze energy-blasts just ain't ****in' real.
 
Just curious, but why do you view Captain America's current story as a reflection of gray morality? Just because Steve dies? I'm of the mind that what we're witnessing right now is the tale of a man who's so selfless that, even in death, his only thoughts were for others--for the guy whose life he saved taking Crossbones' sniper shot on the steps of that courthouse, and for the eventual redemption of his best friend by way of that letter to Tony--and of a symbol that's so powerful--largely because of Steve's heroism and selflessness--that it can actually be the vehicle for Bucky's redemption. I find the current Cap story uplifting, partly, I guess, because I'm not under any delusions that Steve'll be gone for good.
 
That's not quite what I was referring to. Maturity and realism in plotting, characterization, dialogue, and themes is fine. But mistaking maturity and realism for postmodern deconstruction of morality, first of all, is a mistake. And secondly, deluding oneself into believing that superhero fiction can truly achieve "realism" is a mistake that will only lead to self-loathing on the part of the fans, and to disappointment. Because a story about a guy who can fart lightning and sneeze energy-blasts just ain't ****in' real.

You keep bringing up postmodern deconstruction of morality when no one else is. Of course, in a lot of super hero stories that are meant to reflect the uglier side of human nature in recent years, the more realistic aesthetic has been used. I personally see that as an attempt on the part of the creators to make their message hit closer to home by showing a world that isn't all that far removed from our own, but regardless, the tendency to make the connection is understandable.

Still, I think when most people talk about realism around here, they're referring to things like having the costumes look like clothing that could actually be made as it's drawn, and referencing and studying real world science when crafting the science fiction of the story instead of making up random techno babble. And I really don't see anything wrong with that, and I certainly don't see how it would lead to self loathing on anyone's part. If it helps tell the story that's trying to be told, go for it.
 
Valid point, but at the same time, I don't see what separates Marvel from DC in that regard. DC is doing many of those same things with many of its characters and has been for some time.
 
I think they have a lot of superficial similarities, but they're more different than alike. Captain America as a character is much more similar to Superman.

Hey! I've got one of the original pages to the Jarvis/Bruiser story!
 
Ha, weird. I just read it a couple days ago. It was really ham-fisted, but it was refreshing to recall a time when comics conveyed morals to their readers instead of largely reflecting the world's immorality back at them. :)
 
I've been to the user CP 3 times, and can't find the avatar button. Can I get some help here?
 

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