Is Captain America Marvel's Batman?

[TheCorpulent1]

You need a minimum number of posts to get an avatar. I think it's 300, which seems like a lot now that I actually type it out.

 

[Anubis]

Eh, not really. A guy can get 300 posts fast playing some of those games like the word association thread, or the actor movie actor thread. Good time wasters.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, if you're so inclined. But a casual poster who actually puts some thought into his posts is gonna take a while.

 

[Anubis]

Yeah but you can count posters like that on one hand.

Just pop into random threads and type BOOBIES.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I can't advocate that.

 

[Anubis]

That's okay, I can do it for you.

BOOSH!

 

[DoomRulz]

I'd say Daredevil is Marvel's equivalent to Batman b/c they're both great detectives.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

Hmm. Daredevil detective wise is a good choice...but as far as prep time I'd say either Tony or T'Challa covers that part of Bruce.

 

[Aristotle]

Just curious, but why do you view Captain America's current story as a reflection of gray morality?

Well, for one thing, Death of Captain America isn't so much what I'm talking about with gray morality. I just think Batman RIP is going to be a pretty direct refutation of it. That doesn't mean I don't like what Bru's doing on Cap. Cap is still the Marvel book I've read longer than any other, and the only Marvel book I even occasionally (as in twice a year maybe) picked up before I was a superhero fan. And I love what Bru's doing on the title.

I'm of the mind that what we're witnessing right now is the tale of a man who's so selfless that, even in death, his only thoughts were for others--for the guy whose life he saved taking Crossbones' sniper shot on the steps of that courthouse, and for the eventual redemption of his best friend by way of that letter to Tony--and of a symbol that's so powerful--largely because of Steve's heroism and selflessness--that it can actually be the vehicle for Bucky's redemption. I find the current Cap story uplifting, partly, I guess, because I'm not under any delusions that Steve'll be gone for good.

Yes, but to be fair, we're also seeing a story that emphasizes, over and over, that heroism of Steve's kind is something that could only be found in a bygone generation. The ideals and beliefs and rightness that Steve personified are not things we can be bothered with today, the story says.

The fact of the matter is that the cynicism, human cruelty, and indecency that seem to inform what Brubaker portrays as the "modern era" were just as pervasive in 1940. They just looked a little different. Steve doesn't come from the Greatest Generation, he comes from the generation that was fighting World War II, a generation like almost any other. And our generation is not somehow bereft of the potential to be heroic and idealistic in the same way that Cap was.

Now Bru's point here may be a sad, tragic acknowledgment of the death of Steve's heroism, weighed against the ever-increasing tide of morally "conflicted," grim'n'gritty heroes. But even so, it seems to emphasize this inherent generation gap, as opposed to the circumstantial generation gap discussed in Knightfall/Prodigal and Death in the Familiy/Lonely Place of Dying, a gap that could be overcome, that was not inevitable. And while Death and Return of Superman also seemed to emphasize inherency in the generation gap, it rejected the newer paradigm of heroism in favor of the older one, while Death of Captain America does the opposite.

 

[Aristotle]

Ha, weird. I just read it a couple days ago. It was really ham-fisted, but it was refreshing to recall a time when comics conveyed morals to their readers instead of largely reflecting the world's immorality back at them.

Yeah. It is intensely refreshing.

 

[chiefchirpa]

For every Batman stuff sold by DC Comics there are Captain America, Daredevil, Iron Man, Black Panther, Moon Knight, Nighthawk, Night Thrasher stuff sold by Marvel.

For every Superman stuff sold by DC Comics there are Thor, Sentry, Hulk (based on Strength), Gladiator, Hyperion stories sold by Marvel.

No wonder Marvel is growing so much, while DC is stagnating.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

I wish I could properly articulate exactly why I find it easier to get into a Marvel story as opposed to DC. I feel like DC characters are SOOO rich in history; which is a great thing for long time readers. DC characters seem to have a lot more meaningful stuff happen to them while Marvel seems to push the reset button about every 2 years and nothing really changes. When I read a DC story and come here to talk about it, everybody's referencing stuff that happened before my dad even met my mom. I feel like I got a late invitation to the party

The DC books that I do read were the only ones I was able to jump into after only a week of furious wikipedia-ing. GL, GLC, Flash, Teen Titans, etc.

 

[Anubis]

For every Batman stuff sold by DC Comics there are Captain America, Daredevil, Iron Man, Black Panther, Moon Knight, Nighthawk, Night Thrasher stuff sold by Marvel.

For every Superman stuff sold by DC Comics there are Thor, Sentry, Hulk (based on Strength), Gladiator, Hyperion stories sold by Marvel.

No wonder Marvel is growing so much, while DC is stagnating.

wtf are you talking about?

 

[Kitsune]

He was both. They're not mutually exclusive. In fact, while most smart people aren't smarmy, the majority of smarmy people are smart.

Yes, a sick precursor to the equally sick Marvel Zombie and Make Mine Marvel ideas. The worst consumer culture had to offer, and we owe them to Stan Lee. Brand loyalty is ****ed up. If you love characters, that's one thing. But just being obsessive about a brand is ****ing weird and sick.


Now, Kitsune, it's my turn to link to an article that pretty well captures what's wrong with Stan Lee: http://www.sequart.com/articles/?article=592

No... your obsession with Stan Lee is weird and sick. I read the article, or at least tried to, but it got so ridiculous I had to abandon it. He was complaining about the underarm webbing? What the hell, it's a visual element of the character, so what if it doesn't preform a purpose, neither does Superman wearing underwear on the outside. He basically spent the whole page doing what you do all the time here, making up excuses to hate Stan Lee. At least he was honest enough to admit he was ranting.

 

[Hans]

Yeah, I tried to read that too. So, basically, the writer thought that FF #1 was stupid because it was so implausible. Okay. But, uh, ALL of the Silver Age comics, Marvel and DC could be considered stupid because they were so implausible. I don't know how you could pick one writer out of the multitude and place the blame solely on him. Just take the Silver Age comics for what they were: comics with cool costumes, interesting ideas and Jack Kirby art.

Also, it's interesting that Aristotle (the guy who doesn't like realism in comics) linked an article that criticized Stan Lee for not being realistic enough.

 

[Mutagen]

Sorry, no, I find no character is the answer for the other, they are both entirely different from one another. Not concerning their passion for justice, and their love of secret identities.

 

[Aristotle]

I wish I could properly articulate exactly why I find it easier to get into a Marvel story as opposed to DC. I feel like DC characters are SOOO rich in history; which is a great thing for long time readers. DC characters seem to have a lot more meaningful stuff happen to them while Marvel seems to push the reset button about every 2 years and nothing really changes. When I read a DC story and come here to talk about it, everybody's referencing stuff that happened before my dad even met my mom. I feel like I got a late invitation to the party

The DC books that I do read were the only ones I was able to jump into after only a week of furious wikipedia-ing. GL, GLC, Flash, Teen Titans, etc.

It was the same for me. You do have to do a little bit of digging to be able to get into certain aspects of the DCU, although I think if one is more patient than I was willing to be, it would eventually come to you just through reading comics. It's too bad that DC's writers seem so unable to do a better job of loosening that impenetrable fog of continuity, but even Marvel has a lot of that going on. I mean, Secret Invasion is every bit the continuity-wank that Infinite Crisis was.

 

[Aristotle]

Yeah, I tried to read that too. So, basically, the writer thought that FF #1 was stupid because it was so implausible.

That, and the rest of Silver Age Marvel.

But, uh, ALL of the Silver Age comics, Marvel and DC could be considered stupid because they were so implausible.

First of all, Darius does acknowledge that. But second of all, he lays out pretty clearly why he feels that Marvel was substantially worse and less palatable than DC's Silver Age. I agree with him on both counts: the Silver Age, as a whole, was loaded with horrific writing, characterization, dialogue, and plotting, but in general, I prefer DC's style of completely bonkers absurd ludicrousness, to Marvel's style of trying to pass off stupid **** as "realistic and relatable."

I don't know how you could pick one writer out of the multitude and place the blame solely on him.

Because he was just that bad. And he never evolved as a writer. And because he's a ****ing corporate shill more concerned with his brand and making money than he ever was with being respectful to the characters and to his universe, an attitude that has defined Marvel's direction ever since.

Also, it's interesting that Aristotle (the guy who doesn't like realism in comics) linked an article that criticized Stan Lee for not being realistic enough.

It's also interesting that my opinion is not "anti-realism," and if you'd bothered to read a single thing I've written instead of being Kitsune's little *****, you'd be aware of that.

For every Batman stuff sold by DC Comics there are Captain America, Daredevil, Iron Man, Black Panther, Moon Knight, Nighthawk, Night Thrasher stuff sold by Marvel.

For every Superman stuff sold by DC Comics there are Thor, Sentry, Hulk (based on Strength), Gladiator, Hyperion stories sold by Marvel.

No wonder Marvel is growing so much, while DC is stagnating.

Hey look, a zombie.

No... your obsession with Stan Lee is weird and sick.

The only reason you despise me is my choice of creator to hate. If I was going off on Rob Liefeld, nobody except Midnyte_Sun would say a thing, because it's popular and hip to hate on Liefeld. But because I happen to dislike a creator you worship like a god, you take every possible opportunity to take a jab at me. It's annoying, petty, childish, weird, and a little disturbing.

 

[Fantasyartist]

No I don't think so- Cap is WAY more positive minded than Batman( whose raison d' etre is rooted in childhood loss)!

Terry

 

[Aristotle]

No I don't think so- Cap is WAY more positive minded than Batman( whose raison d' etre is rooted in childhood loss)!

That's true. They are avatars of very different sides of the eras in which they were created. Not to mention, Cap is a couple years younger than Batman, and is therefore more intimately connected with the World War II zeitgeist than Batman, who is more associated with a sort of grim, Depression-era stoicism.

 

[Kitsune]

.

It's also interesting that my opinion is not "anti-realism," and if you'd bothered to read a single thing I've written instead of being Kitsune's little *****, you'd be aware of that.

Hey look, a zombie.

The only reason you despise me is my choice of creator to hate. If I was going off on Rob Liefeld, nobody except Midnyte_Sun would say a thing, because it's popular and hip to hate on Liefeld. But because I happen to dislike a creator you worship like a god, you take every possible opportunity to take a jab at me. It's annoying, petty, childish, weird, and a little disturbing.

My problem is not that you have opinions I disagree with, it's that you never shut up about it. You bring it up at every opportunity and you always give your opinion in the most offensive way possible, you don't say "Stan Lee is overrated" you say "Stan Lee is a prostitute." You always post in such a way that you appear to be trying to get a rise out of people, and that is why I refer to you as a troll. Quite frankly, you of all people, are in no position to be calling anyone childish, especially when you resort to calling people names in the paragraph before.

I went back and reread the article you put so much stock in, and I'm even more convinced that the only real reason you like it, is that it support your opinion. He complains about Spider-Man running across his webbing like a tightrope as if this was somehow an indication of bad writing. He supports his own opinion, with his own opinion, and were all supposed to be impressed with that. Well we aren't.

 

[Red Mask]

I'd say Black Panther is Marvel's Batman more than anyone else.

Except Black Panther is five times everything Batman is, but doesn't have roots in American pulp fiction. And Black Panther doesn't have a secret identity.

 

[moraldeficiency]

First of all, Darius does acknowledge that. But second of all, he lays out pretty clearly why he feels that Marvel was substantially worse and less palatable than DC's Silver Age. I agree with him on both counts: the Silver Age, as a whole, was loaded with horrific writing, characterization, dialogue, and plotting, but in general, I prefer DC's style of completely bonkers absurd ludicrousness, to Marvel's style of trying to pass off stupid **** as "realistic and relatable."

So you'd rather a writer not regard anything to do with science or logic even in passing and just tell you a story without any attempt at logic or justification? Cool. I'm suprised you don't like C.S. Lewis more cause that's exactly what he did in his stories and religious arguments.

Because he was just that bad. And he never evolved as a writer. And because he's a ****ing corporate shill more concerned with his brand and making money than he ever was with being respectful to the characters and to his universe, an attitude that has defined Marvel's direction ever since.

Then it correlates you hate Bob Kane even more for the same reasons or does working at DC make you magically immune to the same logic?

As a corporate shill it's funny that lee went against all traditional wisdom and was the first person to go against the comics code and bring drugs into the flagship title because it was a socially important issue. DC then followed his lead but rather than put it in something that could be damaged they used a soon to be cancelled series.

The only reason you despise me is my choice of creator to hate. If I was going off on Rob Liefeld, nobody except Midnyte_Sun would say a thing, because it's popular and hip to hate on Liefeld. But because I happen to dislike a creator you worship like a god, you take every possible opportunity to take a jab at me. It's annoying, petty, childish, weird, and a little disturbing.

No, if you hated Liefeld for the same reasonings we'd still be on you for it. I think he's a crappy artist, but I don't think anyone would paint him out to be one of the worst most evil figures of all time the way you drip venom at Lee.

See if you just said I don't like Lee's stories, ideas or his approach to the buisness that's one thing but when you get hysterical and insanely personal without much reason other than a bad feeling you got off a Kevin Smith movie, which really should have been directed at Smith, then people are gonna call you on it.

 

[Red Mask]

I still think Stark is a more close match. I mean, Batman and Black Panther are similar, sure, but Bruce Wayne and Tony Stark are pretty close to being clones...Combine the fighting style and heroism of Black Panther with everything else Tony Stark and you got batman.

You know, roughly.

Very roughtly. Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne only share superficial similarities. One critic from CNN made that mistake without realizing that Batman is a depressing, obsessed psycho. But Tony Stark is really a playboy fat cat who later becomes a hero. He never grew up intending to become a hero until he faced the horror of his work.

 

[DoomRulz]

I'd dare say Batman is like Mr. Fantastic is some ways. He always seems to know what he's looking at. He's definitely a scientist in that sense.