Joker 'JOKER: FOLIE À DEUX' (Phillips and Phoenix return for the sequel) General News & Discussion Thread

[Gothamsknight]

I singled out IGN because they have given bad scores to things that are widely considered amazing. But the rest of the reviews, at least the ones that have come out since, seem to paint this movie as disappointing. Based on what I've read, I really have my doubts that the GA will enjoy this film that much, but who knows? I may or may not have stumbled upon something that spoiled the ending, and if it's true, I hate it. Like really really hate it.

Regardless, after this movie, I don't have much desire to see more from Philips world. Adding to what I said last night, it doesn't seem like Philips is at all interested in making a version of these characters that are at all familiar, to the point where it's on purpose. The first film felt like it COULD be a take the Joker was telling. A sequel kinda throws all of that away, and makes it more obvious this is just a guy named Arthur. If it's not about The Joker, then what is this?

 

[psylockolussus]

Oof...another DC movie with middling reviews.

 

[BatLobster]

Beetlejuice Beetlejuice has a 78...and it is straight trash. (way worse than Black Adam...on par with Ghostbusters: Frozen Empire) People got to stop pretending critics know anything about anything.

Oh man, saw BB last night and totally disagree, I actually think it deserved a higher score. Keaton defeats Joker again!

About the Joker reviews though, the first one also had mixed reviews so I think everyone who is really looking forward to this should relax, but also brace for the possibility that this won’t be as popular or generally well-regarded as the first one. I’m not too fussed either way. I’m still going into this without much of a desire for a follow-up to Joker, even though I’m sure it will be beautiful to look at, at the very least.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Oh man, saw BB last night and totally disagree, I actually think it deserved a higher score. Keaton defeats Joker again!

Same! Beetlejuice Beetlejuice was fantastic! It was honestly even better than I was hoping it would be. Felt like I was watching a Tim Burton film from the 90s.

I might even prefer it over the first!

 

[BatLobster]

Same! Beetlejuice Beetlejuice was fantastic! It was honestly even better than I was hoping it would be. Felt like I was watching a Tim Burton film from the 90s.

I might even prefer it over the first!

It’s honestly a more engaging story and fun exploration of that world than the first movie. See, the difference for me here is I don’t think most people were ever opposed to a sequel to Beetlejuice. It’s a fun, zany world with memorable characters and a Keaton performance for the ages. They arguably waited a little too long, but regardless, at least personally speaking it was something I was so curious about since the rumors of a sequel started over a decade ago.

With Joker… Arthur Fleck is a sad, miserable character and on top of that he’s really only related to “The” Joker we know in name and aesthetic only. I did not walk out of Joker with a desire to spend more time with him, even post-transformation. So it’s battling against that with me from the start. Now the addition of Gaga and the idea of it being a “musical” got me somewhat intrigued and thinking maybe there was a fresh approach to this. We’ll just have to see. The reviews honestly don’t seem too bad, just mixed like the first.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Not the critics debate again. The job of a film critic is to give their opinion. You are not under any obligation to follow their reviews or agree with them, just as they're not under any obligation to enjoy what you do. You all are largely entering this Joker 2 thing ready to watch and enjoy the movie cause you are fans. Many critics watching this movie are not fans of CBMs in general and only watch these and review them cause they get paid to do so.

My advice for handling reviews for everyone is to:

A - stop being super serious about it
B - if you're trying to get a concensus, watch both favorable and unfavorable reviews. Many of them and see common likes/dislikes
C - maybe find a handful of critics who you largely agree with and follow them. Don't try and follow every single critic or opinion

This debate happens every movie. Critics are cheered when Movie X gets that 98% score and heralds the movie largely as a masterpiece, and then you get people who just blankly write off all critics when Movie X gets a bad score. That's not really the best way to view criticism in general.

 

[Closerframe]

Critics lost their relevancy to determine whether or not a movie is good since the internet became widely accessible and people could form their own opinions without resorting to “experts”.

The entire medium is subjective and ultimately comes down to your own personal preferences. I personally think the first Joker was good for what it was and didn’t warrant a sequel. If this is primarily set in Arkham and a court room then it lessens some of the concerns I have for most sequels that try to go big because of the success of the previous film.

 

[Erik20]

I mean Black Adam has an audience score in the high 80s so personally I don't put much stock in that.

Yeah people often complain about critics, but almost every garbage movie has a high audience score on RT.

 

[dhandler01]

I guess that's fair, but A) Variety, THR, BBC and The Guardian also found it disappointing and no one is quoting those and B) is Slashfilm, The Wrap, Empire and Screen Rant who gave it good reviews any more respectable than those you mention? That's why I feel, and it wasn't meant to be personal in any way, that some people in every forum only hear what they want to hear.

Good reviews are no more reputable than bad reviews. The best way to avoid confirmation bias (which you are correct is a major thing on boards like these) is to just not read reviews until after you either see the film, or decide for certain there is no way you ever will. Otherwise it is hard to avoid because we are humans (I see this a lot in sports too)

I have seen too many reviews over the years where it was obvious the reviewer either didn't see the film, or spent the whole film looking at their phone, to know these experts are no better than us when we are at the movies. And we all have seen plenty of evidence that some reviewers can be easily swayed by early interviews with cast, exclusive information, free swag and invites to parties or super special screenings. Hell how many films get decent reviews on nostalgia alone?

I trust my own eyes, and read reviews after. But that is just me, I never tell others how to live their lives.

 

[dhandler01]

Same! Beetlejuice Beetlejuice was fantastic! It was honestly even better than I was hoping it would be. Felt like I was watching a Tim Burton film from the 90s.

I might even prefer it over the first!

While I am very glad you enjoyed it...and will agree it felt like the better version of Tim Burton...it did not feel like a Beetlejuice film it felt more like Pee Wee's Big Adventure. Hell it felt more like the Beetlejuice Cartoon than the movie. But that is a discussion for another time in another thread

Again though, glad you and Batlobster enjoyed it. My opinion (and my SOs) are our own. We never try and ruin other people's enjoyment.

 

[dhandler01]

With Joker… Arthur Fleck is a sad, miserable character and on top of that he’s really only related to “The” Joker we know in name and aesthetic only. I did not walk out of Joker with a desire to spend more time with him, even post-transformation. So it’s battling against that with me from the start. Now the addition of Gaga and the idea of it being a “musical” got me somewhat intrigued and thinking maybe there was a fresh approach to this. We’ll just have to see. The reviews honestly don’t seem too bad, just mixed like the first.

I agree with this, I never wanted a sequel. I am not mad they made one, but didn't feel like one was necessary. I also don't really care that this isn't Joker from the true DCU, as it was never supposed to be so expansion was never needed. I thought it gave enough nods to the "source" without really being anything close to it. This wasn't about Batman's world, it was about a world so messed up it created someone like Joker. It was a different and menacing.

I liked the idea of Phillips trying to make the sequel something different which is why I became intrigued and yeah Gaga helped as well.

I never thought it would review super well, somewhere around the first one which it is not far off from. (its at 60 now and the first was 69 since I decided to check for purposes of this post) The question is whether audiences like it and these days I don't even try to predict that. I hope I enjoy it but if I don't it will just join a litany of other films I was disappointed in. Then on to the next one

 

[dhandler01]

Not the critics debate again. The job of a film critic is to give their opinion. You are not under any obligation to follow their reviews or agree with them, just as they're not under any obligation to enjoy what you do. You all are largely entering this Joker 2 thing ready to watch and enjoy the movie cause you are fans. Many critics watching this movie are not fans of CBMs in general and only watch these and review them cause they get paid to do so.

My advice for handling reviews for everyone is to:

A - stop being super serious about it
B - if you're trying to get a concensus, watch both favorable and unfavorable reviews. Many of them and see common likes/dislikes
C - maybe find a handful of critics who you largely agree with and follow them. Don't try and follow every single critic or opinion

This debate happens every movie. Critics are cheered when Movie X gets that 98% score and heralds the movie largely as a masterpiece, and then you get people who just blankly write off all critics when Movie X gets a bad score. That's not really the best way to view criticism in general.

My theory on this is that once aggregate sites starting popping up, this type of thing was inevitable. (super original I know ) When people got their reviews from their local paper or news, or Siskel and Ebert it was a bit more reliable and trustworthy to the audience. Like how you suggest finding a few you trust, that used to be all we could do. Once we could see everyone's reviews from everywhere and we had sites that ranked the movies based on percentage of positive or negative reviews...it became a game. Once that happens people stop caring what the reviews actually say and worry more about "Did X movie get a positive tomato rating" or " why did Y film get a higher score than Z?". It plays to the worst in our personalities and weaknesses as human beings.

Criticism is important. Critics should find weaknesses and poke holes. They should not all follow the zeitgeist or what is popular. And we should not agree with them all of the time. Criticism helps stop groupthink, and leads to better artistic work when it is done right. Look I like RedLetterMedia a lot, I watch all of their videos and support their Patreon. They did not like Alien: Romulus for the most part. I loved it. Their criticisms were valid, I got their points...disagreed with their conclusion. That doesn't make them wrong, it doesn't make their point stupid and it doesn't taint their other reviews. People disagreed with Siskel and Ebert all the time (how many films did they hate that are considered classics now?) but plenty of artists watched those shows and took those criticisms to heart when making their own films. Rolling Stone panned every Led Zepplin album...they are still the gold standard when it comes to rock reviews and criticism.

I know I rag on critics a lot, but in reality the problem isn't critics, it is how their critiques are used that is the problem. (some, who write just to appease the RT crowd are problematic) The gamification of criticism is bad for business and bad for art in general.

 

[Frodo]

Good or Bad, I wasn't gonna rush to see the film in the theater anyway , so , I'll end up streaming it .

I'm not seeing Beetlejuice 2 in the theaters either , particularly this weekend .

It's so freaking hot here in LA County , that , I'm just staying in ,regardless. .

In all honesty , the film I'm looking forward to seeing in the theater is A Complete Unknown , but I'm a fan of the 60s era Bob Dylan , and that first trailer is just magic imo.

So , I'm checking out the film regardless of the critical rating.

 

[OrbOfConfusion]

Good or Bad, I wasn't gonna rush to see the film in the theater anyway , so , I'll end up streaming it .

I'm not seeing Beetlejuice 2 in the theaters either , particularly this weekend .

It's so freaking hot here in LA County , that , I'm just staying in ,regardless. .

In all honesty , the film I'm looking forward to seeing in the theater is A Complete Unknown , but I'm a fan of the 60s era Bob Dylan , and that first trailer is just magic imo.

So , I'm checking out the film regardless of the critical rating.

Well, ideally it also should be cooler in California by the time that comes out in December.........right?? I've been to California only once.

 

[dhandler01]

Hopefully it cools off in a month when I am in Pasadena

 

[Jewel Runner]

Not the critics debate again. The job of a film critic is to give their opinion. You are not under any obligation to follow their reviews or agree with them, just as they're not under any obligation to enjoy what you do. You all are largely entering this Joker 2 thing ready to watch and enjoy the movie cause you are fans. Many critics watching this movie are not fans of CBMs in general and only watch these and review them cause they get paid to do so.

My advice for handling reviews for everyone is to:

A - stop being super serious about it
B - if you're trying to get a concensus, watch both favorable and unfavorable reviews. Many of them and see common likes/dislikes
C - maybe find a handful of critics who you largely agree with and follow them. Don't try and follow every single critic or opinion

This debate happens every movie. Critics are cheered when Movie X gets that 98% score and heralds the movie largely as a masterpiece, and then you get people who just blankly write off all critics when Movie X gets a bad score. That's not really the best way to view criticism in general.

There's something very funny about saying critics when we're talking about Joker of all things, the movie that does out of it's way to be anything but a comic book movie.
I mean you look at any interviews Todd Phillips has had about these movies, he's not really hiding that he's just using the Joker name and DC logo to get attention because the movie would be looked over if they were their own IP.

 

[Frodo]

Well, ideally it also should be cooler in California by the time that comes out in December.........right?? I've been to California only once.

It usually is , though in California, we don't really have the 4 seasons , just different degree's of Summer .

It's been more on the rainy side the past couple of winters so , we'll see.

 

[psylockolussus]

61% (44 reviews) 🍅

 

[Lily Adler]

 

[Joe Von Zombie]

I liked the original as a blatant love letter to Martin Scorsese but that's all it really had going for it. I also liked that everyone's dumbass reactionary takes about the original movie (including the director’s) were laughably wrong based on the content of the actual film. I'm gonna see this high as a kite because I love musicals and I'm glad that they're trying something so deliberately antagonistic.

 

[Matt.S99]

Couldn’t care less about the reviews. Yeah, good reviews are nice, but not always indicative of what is good/bad. At the end of the day, it’s someone’s personal opinion.

The first movie was very divisive. Some people hate it and some love it. I thought it was an incredibly well done film. So, I’m really looking forward to this one

 

[GwensNeckBrace]

very disappointing to hear Gaga was underutilized

 

[psylockolussus]

very disappointing to hear Gaga was underutilized

No wonder she is releasing her next single (for her next album) in the same month as Joker.

I thought would she would have October solely just for Joker's release.

 

[Lily Adler]

very disappointing to hear Gaga was underutilized

Pretty much the only reason were excited why it was a musical and had her in it.

Was Die with a Smile supposed to be a single for the OST?

 

[dhandler01]

I mean you gotta don't really know what underutilized means in this context...