The Amazing Spider-Man Keep the ORGANICS or WEB SHOOTERS???!!!!

[Nathan]

He could be performing dissections of spiders. Analysing how they secrete and excrete their web. All in the lead up to him being bitten by one. He could even keep some as pets. As long as there's focus on him being a talented chemistry student (rather than physics) then I think it would work even more.

That's not really a good idea. Too much of a coincidence don't you think? Studying Spiders, keeping Spiders as pets, clearly showing a certain fascination with them and then gets bitten by a Spider and receives Spider like powers? Nah.

 

[david icke]

I understand that it would add a potential level of danger or dramatic tension to the plot. Although if he were to employ hybrid web-shooters then there would be room for it. Moreover, even organic web-shooters are bound to have a finite supply of web (which should strongly be indicated in the film) and so he can run out. I'd like to see how these abilities affect his metabolism and how he needs to eat more etc.

I haven't seen it , but they did that on the old Flash tv show, had him stuffing his face all the time because of the superpowers, they did it with him in Smallville too.

I think it would be more interesting and funny to see him banging about on his mechanicals in his room trying to get them to work again, and moaning about how he needs money for materials than having a very hungry Spider-man rubbing his tummy all the time. 'My Spider-sense is tingling' would be getting replaced with 'My Spider-belly is rumbling'.
Naw, if they wanted to have the idea that his webs run out and he has problems over that, mechanicals are the way to go I think. We've already seen that work very well in the books, I don't want to see anything like what was done with the Flash in that regard.

 

[SpeterMan3]

Shooters. They add another element to Spidey (brains, inconvenient refills, etc.). They would be a nice change from Raimi's ovies anyway.

 

[david icke]

That's not really a good idea. Too much of a coincidence don't you think? Studying Spiders, keeping Spiders as pets, clearly showing a certain fascination with them and then gets bitten by a Spider and receives Spider like powers? Nah.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to see anything like big coincidences like that either.
At most I wouldn't mind seeing him studying spider's webs after he got bit if he was developing mechanicals. It doesn't have to say it in the film explicitly, but you could no-prize it that his already keen scientific mind is more inspired or attuned to synthesising(sic) his own Spiderwebs after his dna was merged with one's qualities.

 

[Mach2Infinity]

That's not really a good idea. Too much of a coincidence don't you think? Studying Spiders, keeping Spiders as pets, clearly showing a certain fascination with them and then gets bitten by a Spider and receives Spider like powers? Nah.

The thought did cross my mind as it can be too contrived but is it any more contrived than a genetically-engineered/radioactive spider that happens to be in the right place at the right time? His hobby could be spiders and perhaps a visit to Dr. Curt Connors' lab might expose him to a super-spider of sorts. I don't know, some serum for limb regrowth (taken from a spider) has unusual properties. I would at least like Peter Parker to study a spider before he gets bitten. Perhaps in class conducting a dissection. So that if he does have artificial web-shooters then the seed has been planted.

I haven't seen it , but they did that on the old Flash tv show, had him stuffing his face all the time because of the superpowers, they did it with him in Smallville too.

I think it would be more interesting and funny to see him banging about on his mechanicals in his room trying to get them to work again, and moaning about how he needs money for materials than having a very hungry Spider-man rubbing his tummy all the time. 'My Spider-sense is tingling' would be getting replaced with 'My Spider-belly is rumbling'.
Naw, if they wanted to have the idea that his webs run out and he has problems over that, mechanicals are the way to go I think. We've already seen that work very well in the books, I don't want to see anything like what was done with the Flash in that regard.

Well invariably there will be a drain on his body due to the added strain of these powers. I think some reference to it would be good. It doesn't have to be overt to the point of 'spider-belly' nonsense. Simply something which alludes to this new found development of his.

There's always the possibility that artificial web-shooters can contain specialist web as I've said earlier. Where for certain villains he'll need to develope web that has special properties. Fire ******ant web being one example.

Lastly, there's the scenario of gradual mutation. Where Spider-Man doesn't receive all his abilities at once. If he were to have organic web-shooters then they could develope in the second or third film maybe?

 

[david icke]

Well invariably there will be a drain on his body due to the added strain of these powers. I think some reference to it would be good. It doesn't have to be overt to the point of 'spider-belly' nonsense. Simply something which alludes to this new found development of his.

Yeah but what could make it interesting, more interesting than the funny little problems he runs into with the mechanicals? If the organic webbing problems are handled too subtle, it's not as interesting as the mechanical situations he gets into in the books, and if you make a big deal out of it, like they did with the Flash on tv shows, you're adding a part onto the Spider-mythos that could be somewhat obtrusive and not so good. That's why i made the 'My spider-belly is rumbling' joke, because if you make a big deal out of it it would be like a whole new thing you'd be attaching to the character, which could be ridiculous.

There's always the possibility that artificial web-shooters can contain specialist web as I've said earlier. Where for certain villains he'll need to develope web that has special properties. Fire ******ant web being one example.

Yeah, this has been done in the books, where he developed a more fire ******ant webbing, I don't know what else it could be developed into though, it's already water-proof, durable, sticky, can be shaped into different moulds etc.

Lastly, there's the scenario of gradual mutation. Where Spider-Man doesn't receive all his abilities at once. If he were to have organic web-shooters then they could develope in the second or third film maybe?

I don't really see the point in that, folk would just ask, why was that power held back? unless they were going to go with the extra arms story where he mutates further.

 

[Nathan]

The thought did cross my mind as it can be too contrived but is it any more contrived than a genetically-engineered/radioactive spider that happens to be in the right place at the right time?

I like to deal with one conicidence at a time. Being fascinated by Spiders and then getting Spider powers is a bit much.

His hobby could be spiders and perhaps a visit to Dr. Curt Connors' lab might expose him to a super-spider of sorts. I don't know, some serum for limb regrowth (taken from a spider) has unusual properties. I would at least like Peter Parker to study a spider before he gets bitten. Perhaps in class conducting a dissection. So that if he does have artificial web-shooters then the seed has been planted.

Or you could simply show that Dr. Conners and his team are also working on a way to artificially recreate Spider silk, since they are already experimenting with genetically altered Spiders. And Peter, since he's also supposed to be one of Marvel's bright minds, just has that sudden spark and he knows what exactly is missing in the formular. He'd be testing it out, but keeps the sudden revelation to himself, because people might guess who Spider-Man is, because he'd be using the artificial Spider-silk.

 

[Chris B]

I think they should keep the organics but include the 'regulators' or whatever they were going to be called to help with aim and accuracy.

 

[Reikowolf]

doesn't matter, so long as he spins a web, any size... in order to catch thieves, just like flies.

 

[Crook]

I cannot put my position more clearer. My comment was in reference to my perception that many who preferred the artificial web-shooters did so to fit a stylistic change or brief. I.e. it's a new film, everything must change for the sake of it because it's a different continuity. The only analogy I can use is that there's option A and option B. To me it seemed people thought "well we've had option A so let's try option B. Scenario: "Why? What's wrong with option B?" "Nothing, it's just an alternative and I want to try it because it's never been done." Ergo there is no animosity if you will towards option A. It fits the mandate that one should change every detail simply because a re-telling of a story will happen.

You're the who's drawn it out because you insist on fixating on a very innocuous comment. If you're going to insist on my words having a certain inflection which is against what I said (in my view you are twisting and contorting them) then of course I will 'defend' my position. You should simply accept my words and not attempt to be imperious by asserting you know better. It would be supine and disingenuous of me to 'admit' that I got it wrong. Because I think someone is being utterly pedantic on my chosen phrase and enlarged it into a quantum of great proportions.

My god, dramatizing a bit much there. I asked you to clarify your original statement, and all you've done is say something completely different. I'll make this real short: being purposefully different (your words) does not correspond to choosing upon preference, which happens to be different. That is all.

To me they're all equally fantastical which is why I make no distinction among whether a certain power is more plausible or not. Simply because the central conceit that a man receives spider abilities from a spider bite is the only leap of faith one must make in accepting the character. Everything else is mere colouration. Which is why I said "logically..." because a spider secretes and excretes web. The way in which a man would do it would alter drastically of course but one doesn not need to get into the mechanics of it.

Of course you don't need to get into the mechanics of it. But we're exploring it anyway because this discussion has progressed into how well each ability holds up under a critical eye. You assumed his other powers were just as implausible, and I explained to you (twice now) that was simply not true.

First of all I will debate how I deem fit. I do not debate within the confines or parameters that others set. To demand such of someone is rather arrogant and myopic.

I didn't demand you to do anything, slick. I asked you if you could. Stop pointing fingers.

In addition, it is absurd to separate one particular power from others. Considering these are abilities that are quite inherent and natural to a spider.

Uhm, did you not ask me previously to explain his other powers? I did so. Each and every power, works independently of the rest. There is a logical basis for their existence that relatively works under biological principle. I ask you to do the same, and now it's absurd? Come on.

It's ludicrous to try and apply "logic" to explain how a man's biology can specifically accommodate web-production when one must also explain the changes in physiology and anatomy that allows Spider-Man to do the other things he does. All of his abilities are inextricably linked since he received them from the same source. To question this reality is to bring everything into question and not simply one facet of his powers.

Which I did. None of his comic book powers require significant physiological or anatomical alterations. They are all enhancements of the human body. If you perceive this to be wrong, then feel free to chime in. I am open to new comments.

However, since you think it is implausible that Spider-Man would have web secretion/excretion abilities (since typically a spider uses its abdomen) then I shall present this article (based on fact):

BBC

I shall post key points:

Scientists have shown how spiders made to scale vertical glass surfaces will secrete a fibrous "glue" to anchor themselves down and prevent a fall.
Arachnids are known to use claws to negotiate difficult terrain, and they also have tiny hairs that can form weak electric attractions with a surface.

.....

"We have discovered that the tarantula has a third attachment mechanism, which depends on fibres exuded from nozzle-like structures on its feet."

.....

"These fibrous secretions function as silken tethers and, when laid down on glass plates, appear as 'footprints' that consist of dozens of fibres with diameters of 0.2-1.0 [millionths of a metre]."

.....

The team studied how zebra tarantulas (Aphonopelma seemanni) from Costa Rica managed to hang on to vertical glass plates.

.....

Generally, spiders will extrude a silk from abdominal structures known as spinnerets. This fine thread is used in a range of activities from capturing prey to providing protective shields for developing young.
The team wonders which of the adaptations - foot silk or abdominal silk - came first; or, indeed, if they evolved completely independently.

The implication is that if certain species of spider's are known to excrete web from their legs (they have no other limbs). Then it increases the 'plausibility' that if a man inherited the spider's abilities, he would be able to shoot web from his limbs as this particular spider does. Now a film doesn't have to explain where ever single web-nozzle is located on Spider-Man body does it? Only where it is relevant.

Of course the nozzle location is important. It's existence has to be justifiable. Spiders secreting the substance from their limbs makes sense for obvious reasons. Humans have digits, so if there were any similar secretion, it would be there. Placing it on the wrists is stupid, can't be rationalized, and is only accepted because people are so used to Spidey shooting it from there.

This is what I mean by the pick-and-choose method. The reference article is great as a starting point. But anyone that wants to attempt applying logical foundations in fiction should take as much care with how it is presented. Otherwise, why even bother? You took a scientific case of silk secretions taking place other than the abdomen up, but then completely threw that out when related to Spidey down).

Why is it so hard to stick with "I like organics"? No one's pressuring you to go through such lengths in trying to justify it purely because of it's unrealistic nature. Well...unless you bring it up, that is.

I like Supes, Nightcrawler, Flash, and a plethora of other fantastical heroes. You won't see me phased because some of their powers are completely unexplainable. I still wouldn't change them, in spite of that acknowledgment.

 

[Mach2Infinity]

Yeah but what could make it interesting, more interesting than the funny little problems he runs into with the mechanicals? If the organic webbing problems are handled too subtle, it's not as interesting as the mechanical situations he gets into in the books, and if you make a big deal out of it, like they did with the Flash on tv shows, you're adding a part onto the Spider-mythos that could be somewhat obtrusive and not so good. That's why i made the 'My spider-belly is rumbling' joke, because if you make a big deal out of it it would be like a whole new thing you'd be attaching to the character, which could be ridiculous.

I know, I simply felt the artificial web-shooters wasn't the only way of having a scenario where Spider-Man would run out of web. Even though it would translate easier than the organic web-shooters in that regards. It depends where they want to go with the character. A common criticism of the previous films is that Spider-Man did not show enough of his humorous side. The quips he often delivers (especially towards the villains) were mostly absent. Perhaps in the minds of the film-makers they don't want to turn Spider-Man into a clown but don't know how to convey the wisecracking hero. In regards to the hunger scenario. They can simply show him eating larger portions and have comments from people who notice it. You can weave that sort of thing into the story without signposting that he needs to keep his energy up. It's obviously not necessary it's simply a possibility along with the artificial web-shooter woes.

I don't really see the point in that, folk would just ask, why was that power held back? unless they were going to go with the extra arms story where he mutates further.

Well that's what they can do. Mutate him further and he struggles to counteract this mutation. Perhaps at the end when he's found a solution and changes back to 'normal'. He discovers he's retained that abililty.

Or you could simply show that Dr. Conners and his team are also working on a way to artificially recreate Spider silk, since they are already experimenting with genetically altered Spiders. And Peter, since he's also supposed to be one of Marvel's bright minds, just has that sudden spark and he knows what exactly is missing in the formular. He'd be testing it out, but keeps the sudden revelation to himself, because people might guess who Spider-Man is, because he'd be using the artificial Spider-silk.

That's a good idea. You know the limb re-growth route is not a bad one. Since as we all should know. Dr. Connors' research into limb re-growth is how he turns into the Lizard in the first place. It would only be logical for him to look at all species that are able to re-grow limbs. Spiders are among them. I think a radioactive (gamma radiation?) genetically engineered spider would work and again fuses both the film and comic concepts. The one thing that did bother me though about the first Spider-Man film. Is how in a controlled environment where they're looking at spiders all the time. Someone was careless and did not realise a spider was missing.

 

[The Slang]

If they were to use a hybrid of the two ideas, I would suggest that Parker creates the mechanical web shooters, but a major component of the 'web fluid' is a substance from his own body. Maybe in his sweat?
Parker could have already been experimenting with chemicals and air rifles before the spider-bite. Say he was trying to create a miniture version of the MI6 foam gun for Oscorp or Stark industries. Then after he gets his powers, he makes his costume and becomes an entertainer. One day he spills his experimental compound on his costume but -being in a hurry- is unable to clean it. He goes to an underground fight club, breaks up a sweat, and notices that he is developing underarm webbing. He puts two and two together, combines the compound with the silk protein in his sweat and then creates the webshooters.

This would explain why he can't patten the formula... it comes from him. It would mean being studied and 'milked'. And he could never provide enough for mass-production.
But really I don't think the patten thing is an issue at all. Without superhuman strength the webshooters wouldn't be nearly as useful.

 

[Crook]

That's a good start, but instead of sweat I'd instead borrow from Mach2Infinity's article with the fluid being secreted from parts of the body that would be used for crawling (i.e. fingers and feet). There are a variety of ways they could approach the inception of his experimental process, the important part is it makes sense.

See, we're getting somewhere. Looks like the application of scientific sensibilities has actually gone a long way in solving many of the fallacies found in his origin. Great job.

 

[Artistsean]

He could have organic web shooter, or inorganic, whatever they want wont bother me.
But I would like to see the belt, light, and trackers. But still, if they don't I wont loose any sleep. It would just be cool.

 

[Mach2Infinity]

My god, dramatizing a bit much there. I asked you to clarify your original statement, and all you've done is say something completely different. I'll make this real short: being purposefully different (your words) does not correspond to choosing upon preference, which happens to be different. That is all.

What do you expect? I've explained, rather needlessly to the n ͭ ʰ degree what I meant by that original statement. I don't know how many times I tried to expound on what I said in order to give a clearer meaning. The context to which I referred was that I detected a certain mood/trend among some pro-'mechanics' to choose web-shooters because it hasn't been used (i.e. anything that hasn't been used, use it. Regardless of what it is). Since you're being dense with this matter. I will give a very terse example: a bag of cubes. 10 cubes. "We've used five of them." "Right, let's use the remaining five in the bag." "Why?" "Simply because I like to use anything that hasn't been used."

A wholesale rather than selective change. Really it's not only organic/artificial web-shooters but the rest of it too. Costume: including colours and insignias, J. Jonah Jameson and so forth.

There is a frame of mind in some posters here who believe that a total new pallette is needed for the character. A complete new aesthetic if you will. Where one is concerned with making something look different for the sake of being different (so it's more distinct) regardless of what the object is in question. Rather than incorporating what has been shown to work or isn't problematic.

Here's the crux of the matter for me: If people prefer artificial web-shooters because they are much more accustomed to the idea; for whatever reason. Fine. If the sole/big part of their rationale is simply to choose a different tool because it is different (unused) rather than because they like it then I question it.

Of course you don't need to get into the mechanics of it. But we're exploring it anyway because this discussion has progressed into how well each ability holds up under a critical eye. You assumed his other powers were just as implausible, and I explained to you (twice now) that was simply not true.

Well of course they're implausible given the context: receiving spider abilities through a spider bite. Would it be easier to confer increased strength, agility, adhesive qualities and precognition than web-production? Yes. Does that make them more plausible? No simply because the alterations to Peter Parker are at a genetic level. His very DNA is changed and for us to do it would require intricate knowledge of the human genome (which I do not believe we have yet fully mapped). Once we do map it all, any of the changes we've discussed would in theory be plausible. If we were to discuss strength and agility improvement. Well there's serums once could conceivably manufacture. These would only in practice be stimulants since one would require something far more permanent.

You haven't explained the science of why bestowing greater speed, strength, awareness and surface adhesion is more plausible. You've only put forth your opinion. I've at least tried to substantiate my opinion with scientific fact.

I didn't demand you to do anything, slick. I asked you if you could. Stop pointing fingers.

Let's see what you said, son:

That's not how one debates, that's circumventing the issue. So I'll make this real simple for you: can you debate the involvement of organics alone under semi-logical terms without referencing outside agents or inconsistent methodical explanations?

Whilst you don't demand anything in express terms, you deliberately dictate how one should answer according to what you feel is the appropriate way to answer. I interpret this as mere reductionism. Since you're trying to limit the scope in which one should answer. If I or others feel that an "outside agent" by that I mean referenced material should not be used. Then we're simply going to be parrying opinion back and forth. If I can inject some fact based element then I will do so.

Uhm, did you not ask me previously to explain his other powers? I did so. Each and every power, works independently of the rest. There is a logical basis for their existence that relatively works under biological principle. I ask you to do the same, and now it's absurd? Come on.

I never asked you to detail what are Spider-Man's powers. I merely asked you to elucidate on how gaining his special abilities were plausibe or rather the way in which he does is plausible. I've already mentioned gene therapy. I find it odd that one has trouble with the notion that if a spider can transfer or confer its abilities to a human with web-production being key that this would not work within the reality of Spider-Man. You ask why does he need to excrete web? He doesn't but it's a handy by-product of an accident which did not involve any precision.

Which I did. None of his comic book powers require significant physiological or anatomical alterations. They are all enhancements of the human body. If you perceive this to be wrong, then feel free to chime in. I am open to new comments.

Right, our closest relative is the chimpanzee (some say it's the orangutan) with whom we share approximately 96% of our DNA. That's a four percent change on the genetic level and yet we differ so much by appearance alone. Therefore any change to a human being's DNA (even one percent) will have vast significance and go much further beyond physiological and anatomical alterations. What happens to Spider-Man is not simply an 'upgrade package' but major changes to his cellular make-up and of course his DNA.

Of course the nozzle location is important. It's existence has to be justifiable. Spiders secreting the substance from their limbs makes sense for obvious reasons. Humans have digits, so if there were any similar secretion, it would be there. Placing it on the wrists is stupid, can't be rationalized, and is only accepted because people are so used to Spidey shooting it from there.

As I said, only where relevant. You'll note I was careful in always (or most of the time) mentioning organic webbing and not being too specific on whether it should be on the wrists, elbows or wherever. Personally I would move the 'spinnerets' to the base of the palms since one would use one's entire hand to grip and not simply fingers. I never said that Sam Raimi's placement of the organic web spinneret was good or bad. Merely the concept was fine. It can be improved by placing it on the base of the palm. A subtle change but one that will not register with the average cinemagoer.

This is what I mean by the pick-and-choose method. The reference article is great as a starting point. But anyone that wants to attempt applying logical foundations in fiction should take as much care with how it is presented. Otherwise, why even bother? You took a scientific case of silk secretions taking place other than the abdomen up, but then completely threw that out when related to Spidey down).

Then you didn't understand my reasoning, which ought to be clear. Some may believe that 'genetic transference' from the spider to Peter Parker should not involve the transference of a web-producing ability. Simply because of where all spiders are perceived to excrete their web; the abdomen. If actual research has shown that some spiders excrete web through their limbs. Then it makes it more believable for an audience to suspend their disbelief as a facet of a character has some loose basis in reality.

Why is it so hard to stick with "I like organics"? No one's pressuring you to go through such lengths in trying to justify it purely because of it's unrealistic nature. Well...unless you bring it up, that is.

Well of course I'm going to bring it up if you and others question. If I can find a way to convey that ideal which as much 'reason' as I can, then I will do so. Moreover without such articles as the above one, who would have known that spiders could secrete web in their legs? Since it is now reality. This can only strengthen the position of those who support organic web-shooters. Especially as there is a large disparity between the web-shooter concept (deeply enshrined in comic lore) and organic webbing (whose excretion through limbs were hitherto less appealing). You may say it's levelling the playing field.

I like Supes, Nightcrawler, Flash, and a plethora of other fantastical heroes. You won't see me phased because some of their powers are completely unexplainable. I still wouldn't change them, in spite of that acknowledgment.

Neither would I. Which is why I completely accept the reality that is presented to me. I accept a Spider-Man with either organic/artificial web-producing capabilities. Simply because the events and mechanics of the story in which he takes part allows myself and others that luxury.

 

[Mach2Infinity]

But I would like to see the belt, light, and trackers.

I too. I'd like to see a scene akin to Peter Parker visiting a 'radioshack' type story and buying all these electronic components and have him assemble them to be electronic bugs, tracking devices, camera and the 'spider signal'.

 

[Crook]

I'll fast-forward straight to what just made the majority of this debate practically futile:

As I said, only where relevant. You'll note I was careful in always (or most of the time) mentioning organic webbing and not being too specific on whether it should be on the wrists, elbows or wherever. Personally I would move the 'spinnerets' to the base of the palms since one would use one's entire hand to grip and not simply fingers. I never said that Sam Raimi's placement of the organic web spinneret was good or bad. Merely the concept was fine. It can be improved by placing it on the base of the palm. A subtle change but one that will not register with the average cinemagoer.

Why you never brought this up is beyond me. The combination of the organics with the wrist placement are the sole factors that completely turn me off to the concept. I've lost count how many times I've specifically attacked that point in this debate, but you wait until we've filled up 2 pages to reveal that you weren't actually defending Raimi's method?

As seen in my previous post, I'm obviously not opposed to the use of organics, but in a way Raimi hasn't utilized. The term is universally known here as to refer to "organic webshooters from the wrist". When a person brings it up and argues for it, I'm going to assume that's exactly what they're referring to, unless otherwise noted.

 

[Mach2Infinity]

(migraine)

I'll fast-forward straight to what just made the majority of this debate practically futile:

No discussion is ever futile (since it's given us ideas how to evolve/adapt the 'web-shooters') but it could've done with more clearer language from the both of us. Which I think you'll agree.

Why you never brought this up is beyond me. The combination of the organics with the wrist placement are the sole factors that completely turn me off to the concept. I've lost count how many times I've specifically attacked that point in this debate, but you wait until we've filled up 2 pages to reveal that you weren't actually defending Raimi's method?

I thought you attacked the Sam Raimi organic web-shooters as part of an aversion to the whole 'organic' concept rather than solely the wrist placement. It should have been clear that I was vindicating the 'organic concept' numerous times. I never said anything to the effect of "Sam Raimi's wrist shooters were a brilliant idea!" I'm sure I emphasised much more the concept to be sound. I'll admit I should have paid much more attention to your last post. In particular since you stressed the placement of it. I interpreted your criticism as part of an overall criticism and not a more focused one.

As seen in my previous post, I'm obviously not opposed to the use of organics, but in a way Raimi hasn't utilized. The term is universally known here as to refer to "organic webshooters from the wrist". When a person brings it up and argues for it, I'm going to assume that's exactly what they're referring to, unless otherwise noted.

When I joined the debate. The title only read (and still does obviously) "organics or web shooters" which would make one think it's a discussion on the concept rather than 'placement'of web-shooters. I know you've gone to great lengths and I admit I should have considered what you said more but I felt there was an uneven feel to the debate. Which is why I felt compelled to strongly interject later on here which obviously led me to overlook certain details. Sam Raimi's adaptation of the web-shooters should certainly be changed if Sony will go for the organic/hybrid web-shooters. I think it can be bettered with what I suggested (the base of the palm) and so it's evolving the wrist web-shooter to be more practical. If the audience will more willingly believe the palm rather than wrist web-shooters. Then it's one less distracting detail and it helps to keep the audience further ingrained in the fantastical reality to which they experience.

I try to be as precise and concise with my language as I can. So if I've expressly used the term "organic web-shooters" continually then I mean precisely so. Although I'll be careful to use such distinction if it's the status quo.

 

[craigdbfan]

Nostalgia.

 

[Mach2Infinity]

I think if they are to have Spider-Man using mechanical web-shooters. They should show him experimenting with foam fire extinguishers. Particularly if he likes to work in a laboratory quite often. Perhaps that can be the basis for how Spider-Man devises his gadgets. He sees things around him which he adapts. I know he needs to invent certain things but it's nice to see how he look at objects around him, take them apart and apply his scientific mind to augment them to suit him.

 

[Crook]

No discussion is ever futile (since it's given us ideas how to evolve/adapt the 'web-shooters') but it could've done with more clearer language from the both of us. Which I think you'll agree.

Absolutely. Which is why I said the majority of it was, because we could've cut down a whole lot of the back-and-forth had that simple point been clarified.

I thought you attacked the Sam Raimi organic web-shooters as part of an aversion to the whole 'organic' concept rather than solely the wrist placement. It should have been clear that I was vindicating the 'organic concept' numerous times. I never said anything to the effect of "Sam Raimi's wrist shooters were a brilliant idea!" I'm sure I emphasised much more the concept to be sound. I'll admit I should have paid much more attention to your last post. In particular since you stressed the placement of it. I interpreted your criticism as part of an overall criticism and not a more focused one.

Yeah, looking back at it now you did focus a lot on the concept rather than method. But considering how much I referenced the wrists, and with you not particularly dismissing it, I had assumed that was no big deal to you. Which it still might not, hell, it's not to me either. But I prefer concepts and ideas to be as fully thought out as possible rather than using "it's fantasy!" as a crutch.

When I joined the debate. The title only read (and still does obviously) "organics or web shooters" which would make one think it's a discussion on the concept rather than 'placement'of web-shooters. I know you've gone to great lengths and I admit I should have considered what you said more but I felt there was an uneven feel to the debate. Which is why I felt compelled to strongly interject later on here which obviously led me to overlook certain details. Sam Raimi's adaptation of the web-shooters should certainly be changed if Sony will go for the organic/hybrid web-shooters. I think it can be bettered with what I suggested (the base of the palm) and so it's evolving the wrist web-shooter to be more practical. If the audience will more willingly believe the palm rather than wrist web-shooters. Then it's one less distracting detail and it helps to keep the audience further ingrained in the fantastical reality to which they experience.

I try to be as precise and concise with my language as I can. So if I've expressly used the term "organic web-shooters" continually then I mean precisely so. Although I'll be careful to use such distinction if it's the status quo.

Truth be told "organic web-shooters" should only indicate as much as it sounds; silk secreted naturally, not necessarily where. However, Raimi's team coined the term, it's sparked heated debates amongst the community for the past decade, so the term is intertwined with wrist placement on a 'its understood' basis.

I should have pointed it out much earlier in the discussion, but the whole aversion to Raimi's method, for me, was it added just one more tick to the "This doesn't stand up too well under criticism" list. One isn't much, of course. But it does add up if other concepts fall to the same analysis. Evidently the idea hasn't had caused ruckus outside the fandom, but regardless as a fan I appreciate when the director goes out of his way to apply as much logic and meticulous craftsmanship to his project. Webshooters are a big staple for the character, so I think it deserves some time from the creative team.

 

[Dangerous]

If they adopt such a mentality then they will undoubtedly miss out on the important elements that marred the previous films…

What makes you think that?
The other issues are just as important if not more so-

-Spidey’s wise cracks
-PP being cast/portrayed correctly
-MJ’s or any of the main characters being portrayed correctly etc etc

But the webshooters are up there too. Of course they are not going to miss the rest of the important stuff, but I’m saying they will also, stylistically want this spider-man to be as distinguishable from the Raimi-Spider-Man as Bale-Batman was to the Batman of the 1990’s film franchise. Like I said this stuff is easy to understand, we are not discussing nuclear fusion.

I and I'm sure plenty of others would disagree. Quoting a statistic from this forum and it relying on it for your argument is rather flimsy.

Heheh, I was not relying on the poll results for my arguments validity. I was merely citing them as a glance at the opinions of a small, yet random percentage of fandom. My argument needs no one else’s acceptance to validate it. It is valid through me reading SM comics for the past 20 odd years.

As I have detailed earlier, which shows my sincerity in discussing the topic despite some reservations. There is a compromise. Spider-Man can still develope a device which attaches to the wrist and can be used to make different shapes and sizes from the web which is excreted organically. ……

I’ll stick w/ the Stan Lee/Steve Ditko version.
Y’ know, - how it’s supposed to be.

I get it- you prefer organics, I don’t. I prefer mechs.
You prefer the idea of a hybrid system device that Spidey creates, I don’t.
I prefer Spidey crafting actual mechanical webshooters and whipping up the web fluid himself, the stuff that disintegrates after an hour.

One of the main reasons mechs are better is because the web fluid/cartridges often run out at the least desirable times making Spidey think on his feet in dangerous situations. That’s aside from the visual metaphor for his scientific abilities, it being how he was originally designed, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it & and it would please the longtime fans. Meaning fans prior to the 21st century.

Well it's a minor detail in the grand scheme of things. I'm sure many weren't keen on the idea of organic web-shooters but it didn't seem to bother many once the films were released. Changing details which are really for aesthetic value does not quantify as a meaningful and necessary change.

I have already explained numerous times that one of the main reasons mechs are better is because of them representing a limited ability which in effect is a slight weakness thus making battles more interesting.

I'm sure it'll please some hardcore fans at least. Peter Parker can still have 'limited webbing' by having organic web-shooters. One can imagine with his new found abilities, his metabolism will quicken and such traits as web-production can drain his body of certain nutrients. There's vulnerability right there.

Sounds lame, heh.

I will ask you. Once you're sitting in the cinema, watching the film and Spider-Man on-screen of course. After seeing him shooting web and if they are organic. Are you really going to spend the rest of the film upset because he's excreting web from his body? No, you'll be more concerned with how the plot is unfolding. Whether the characters and villains have been written properly and whether the right man was cast as Peter Parker.

Of course Ill be disappointed, but yes I will be more concerned with who’s playing the leads, how the characters are written, how Spidey’s costume looks etc. Yes, all those other things combined will be more important than the webshooters alone.

So what?

We could swap the webshooters with anything from the list of stuff that needs fixing like ..say, the origin, and pose the question- Are you going to spend the rest of the film upset if they don’t fix the origin (Ben died at home not in the road), but everything else inc- correct characterization, wise cracks & webshooters are fixed?

Well, no again, I’m gonna be happy that the majority of stuff is fixed.
What does that prove? NOTHING. The point is,- having mechs this time instead of organics is just as important as all those other issues.

So how many comic book stores across the UK have you visited?

Every six months I’ll frequent-

2x Liverpool
2x Manchester
3x Leeds
1x Chester

Conversations either overheard or that I have been part of have indicated a general preference of mechs in Spidey talk.

It's facile and obtuse to say "well opinions on the internet, this poll etc say this and that." They will only give you a sample. They may give you the correct sample but you cannot know simply from assuming that you're correctly judging by the limited sources of information from which you've based your opinion. I suppose next you'll be telling me you've been visiting comic book stores in the USA?

It’s neither facile nor obtuse.
I never said these small pools of opinions have provided me with the opinion of the entire planets worth of Spidey fans, you just seem to have inferred that. I said that all internet polls and comic store talk I have witnessed has pointed toward mechs as the popular choice.

Not visited any comic stores in USA since 2008.

I think you're the one who isn't quite..."dealing with it." Grow up, son.

This sounds like your ego talking.
I don’t wish to battle with it.
That’s spiritual unconsciousness.
Read ‘The Power of Now’, it’s freakin awesome!

 

[TheWatcher]

If they Wanted to have Web Shooters,They could say That Richard Parker Made the Webbing in massive amounts for a project(NOT Venom,He's Alien).He also left the formula behind.That is the only way of having The Shooters.

I dont Care though....

 

[Darkness Falls]

I'm gonna say web shooters for the reboot

 

[Agent 194]

This is fun. Just like the old days.