Ken Ham vs Bill Nye (Is creation a viable model of origins?)

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Gee, which one of those statements is actually reasonable?
 
I didn't post it to mock one side or the other. This debate could of ended in 2 statements.
 
I didn't post it to mock one side or the other. This debate could of ended in 2 statements.
Right, and the one who states that he wouldn't change his mind no matter what the evidence was is completely unreasonable. He pretty much ruined his entire argument for creationism as a science right there. He pretty much admitted right there that he has absolutely no interest in searching for the truth, he's just looking for ideas that can fit into the box he wants them to.
 
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But saying you believe something entirely because it says so in a book, isn't a reasoned argument. When you apply it to science, it just becomes silly.
 
Roy Zimmerman's "Creation Science 101" song is always what I think of when this topic is raised.
 
But saying you believe something entirely because it says so in a book, isn't a reasoned argument. When you apply it to science, it just becomes silly.
I read about evolution in a book. :o


:oldrazz:
 
There's no point in these kinds of debates.

Did anyone really think that either Nye or Ham were going to change their minds?

You can argue Nye's stance is more objectively reasonable, but it's a matter of science vs. faith, which are two entirely different things, and that's why I think these kinds of debates are pointless.

It's fine for Ham to feel the way he does (though he doesn't have the right to impose his personal belief on others, and attempting to debate it scientifically just opens himself up to ridicule, IMO), and it's fine for Nye to feel the way he does, but they're coming from two entirely different perspectives and ways of looking at the world, and they were never going to leave this debate feeling any differently than they did before.
 
The only debate like this that I truly loved was Jon Stewart and Bill ORielly's debate they had.

Now that was some great ****.
 
It's a little deeper than "you're an idiot", "no, you're an idiot". Again this is lazy, false equivalence. If you feel both sides are exactly the same, on equal footing, explain the reasoning. If you are unwilling to do so, if you are unwilling to defend your reasoning, if in fact you're metaphorically plugging your fingers in your ears in response to arguments that are out there, and STILL holding onto your false equivalence, there is an issue. The issue isn't with people trying to explain to you why evolution holds water and creationism doesn't. The issue is with you. That when you misuse the word theory, and someone explains to you what it really means - that's a BASIC fact that anyone can look up - and your only recourse is to state "cool story, bro".

There's an intellectual cowardice around that.

We have two competing explanations for the same facts and just because YOU'RE unwilling to actually explore which is more likely to be true, doesn't mean they are both the same.

Essentially,


It's JUST like saying that flat earth and round earth have equal footing.

The bible literalist Dr. Parallax refused to listen to the evidence. I have as little respect for the person that says "pfft, flat earth? Round earth? They're both the same!" as the person that insists its flat, both positions are showing willful ignorance and an unwillingness to examine the evidence. It's lazy.

When scientists can point to human chromosome 2, and show that its fused from 2 ape chromosomes, explain how that doesn't hold water for you.

When something as precisely understood as Einstein's theory of relativity and the work of astronomy over the last 100 years help explain the age of the universe, explain how that doesn't hold water for you.

That isn't me saying "you're an idiot". That's me pointing out evidence, and asking you to explain how it doesn't hold water. Go for it.

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There's no point in these kinds of debates.

Did anyone really think that either Nye or Ham were going to change their minds?

No. But this was more about influencing the opinion of the audience. Although it was Ham’s venue, Nye (arguably) had the most to gain. If he made a good showing (and that seems to be the consensus) then a whole bunch of folks would be exposed to the facts and philosophy of science. That's worthwhile.
 
No. But this was more about influencing the opinion of the audience. Although it was Ham’s venue, Nye (arguably) had the most to gain. If he made a good showing (and that seems to be the consensus) then a whole bunch of folks would be exposed to the facts and philosophy of science. That's worthwhile.
Actually, the Creation museum(and Ham) probably made a lot of money of of this, and probably gained some exposure too unfortunately.
 
There's no point in these kinds of debates.

Did anyone really think that either Nye or Ham were going to change their minds?

You can argue Nye's stance is more objectively reasonable, but it's a matter of science vs. faith, which are two entirely different things, and that's why I think these kinds of debates are pointless.

It's fine for Ham to feel the way he does (though he doesn't have the right to impose his personal belief on others, and attempting to debate it scientifically just opens himself up to ridicule, IMO), and it's fine for Nye to feel the way he does, but they're coming from two entirely different perspectives and ways of looking at the world, and they were never going to leave this debate feeling any differently than they did before.

The thing is though that there is a point. I have actually met people who have changed their minds. Ham isn't going to change, no. He's a fanatic. But people listening, can be swayed.

There are people who are creationists, because that's what they were born into it. Some of them can, and have been convinced by reason.
 
I don't think "evolution" scares people as much as "questioning how they were brought up" does.
 
No. But this was more about influencing the opinion of the audience. Although it was Ham’s venue, Nye (arguably) had the most to gain. If he made a good showing (and that seems to be the consensus) then a whole bunch of folks would be exposed to the facts and philosophy of science. That's worthwhile.

Well one could counter argue that Ham gains the most because somebody is giving his side relevance
 
Well one could counter argue that Ham gains the most because somebody is giving his side relevance

The thing is, you will never lose a sane rational person to Ham's... "argument".

But people who are creationists, only because that's how they were raised, can be reasoned with, and this exposes them to well, reason.
 
Can I believe in God and not believe the Earth was created yesterday?
 
Can I believe in God and not believe the Earth was created yesterday?

absolutely.

I use to be of the idea that God/a force/a being created the big-bang and spun it all into motion. and sat back and watched.

You can still believe in evolution and believe in god and be a christian. if you don't take the bible as documented proof and don't read everything as fact one must follow, then why is the creation myth one that can't be viewed the same way?

I really don't see why some christians fall apart that the stories in the bible may just be stories, fables, and metaphors for how to live your life and be a good person. There system of beliefs doesn't suddenly fall apart because of that notion.
 
That's all you got.

Give me a break, you have yet to actually engage with the valid points people have been throwing at you. You just stick your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALALA! I can't hear you!" You are making a conscious decision to reject all of these reasonings because it makes you feel better emotionally. That is literally the definition of willful ignorance. So, yeah, that's all I've got right now, because you refuse to engage. All I can do now is call a spade a spade. The ball is in your court and it has been for pages now.
 
See...I find someone who is unwilling to even be open to the possibility that at least PART of what they believe is wrong when there is strong evidence is not someone that should even be speaking in a public debate. What's the point? No one wins...it's pointless.
 

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