Endgame Let’s talk the T word (SPOILER DISCUSSION)

[Mutant 77]

Time travel creates the branching realities, not the removal of the stones.

THE ANCIENT ONE (drawing a golden line in the air with the Infinity Stones represented at one point in the line):
The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one of the stones...
(flicks the time stone out of the line)
...and that flow splits.
(A black line splits off from the golden line curving away into the distance)
That may benefit your reality, but my new one, not so much. In this new branched reality, without the chief weapon against the the forces of darkness, our world will be overrun, millions will suffer. Tell me doctor, can your science prevent all that?
BRUCE BANNER:
No, but we can erase it. Because once we've got the stones, we can return it...
(puts the time stone back into the same place in the golden line, and the black line fades to nothing)
...to it's own timeline. So chronologically, in that reality, it never left.
------------------------
BRUCE BANNER:
You have to return the stones to the exact moment you got them, or you're gonna add to the deflection of the alternate realities.
STEVE ROGERS:
Don worry Bruce. I'll clip all the branches.

Clear? It's super-clear to me. Great job, Russos.

 

[Mutant 77]

THE ANCIENT ONE (drawing a golden line in the air with the Infinity Stones represented at one point in the line):
The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one of the stones...
(flicks the time stone out of the line)
...and that flow splits.
(A black line splits off from the golden line curving away into the distance)

SUPPERHERO: this doesn't refer to the creation of the branched reality. It's not the removal of the stones/objects to create the branched reality, but the mere presence of the time traveler in the past, since he is not supposed to "exist" there.
THE BLACK LINE is the "deflection" of the already-split branched reality, which would become problematic without the stone(s), since the people of THAT branched reality could not solve their issues with "their" Thanos without the stone(s).

That may benefit your reality, but my new one, not so much. In this new branched reality, without the chief weapon against the the forces of darkness, our world will be overrun, millions will suffer. Tell me doctor, can your science prevent all that?
BRUCE BANNER:
No, but we can erase it. Because once we've got the stones, we can return it...

SUPPERHERO: NOT erasing the branched reality. Banner is referring to the "corruption" of the events, the negative "deflection" of the already-split branched reality, where a stone is missing and that stops the timeline to "fix" its coherence issues.

(puts the time stone back into the same place in the golden line, and the black line fades to nothing)
...to it's own timeline. So chronologically, in that reality, it never left.
------------------------
BRUCE BANNER:
You have to return the stones to the exact moment you got them, or you're gonna add to the deflection of the alternate realities.
STEVE ROGERS:
Don worry Bruce. I'll clip all the branches.

SUPPERHERO: Cap is returning back the stuff in order TO SAVE THOSE BRANCHED REALITIES, not making them erased. They cannot be erased. They exist and will exist forever. The mere presence of the time travelers in the past created them in the very first place.



Case closed.

 

[Detective Conan]

Endgame screenwriter Christopher Markus contradicts the Russo Brothers statements on how old Cap returned back to the prime timeline, lol.

So people are asking... Does this mean an old Captain America was hanging out this whole time while another Captain America was saving the day?

Christopher Markus: That is our theory. We are not experts on time travel, but the Ancient One specifically states that when you take an Infinity Stone out of a timeline it creates a new timeline. So Steve going back and just being there would not create a new timeline. So I reject the "Steve is in an alternate reality" theory.

I do believe that there is simply a period in world history from about '48 to now where there are two Steve Rogers. And anyway, for a large chunk of that one of them is frozen in ice. So it's not like they'd be running into each other.

Well... this is interesting. It seems even the directors & screenwriters can't agree on how time travel works in the MCU!

 

[henzINNIT]

What if old Cap did indeed sit in the background of 'our' reality but is actually from an alternate reality himself? Another Steve who also sought a life with Peggy after his fight was over.

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

Endgame screenwriter Christopher Markus contradicts the Russo Brothers statements on how old Cap returned back to the prime timeline, lol.




Well... this is interesting. It seems even the directors & screenwriters can't agree on how time travel works in the MCU!

That is why us Trekker's had the rule that if it didn't air then it ain't canon.

 

[Zarex]

What if old Cap did indeed sit in the background of 'our' reality but is actually from an alternate reality himself? Another Steve who also sought a life with Peggy after his fight was over.

This makes much more sense to me than the alternative version in which Old Cap is the only version. The idea that a time traveling Steve was always Peggy's guy, hiding in the background so as not to screw up the timeline, seems more reasonable than Steve creating a whole new and potentially horrifying alternative reality.

 

[Detective Conan]

Didn’t Peggy mention in archive footage that her husband was someone that Steve saved in World War 2? Unless that was subterfuge to throw people off the true indentity of her husband then all signs point to her husband being a completely different person. The Russos explanation makes more sense to me since it would explain why old Steve Rogers didn’t help out and prevent all the atrocities like Bucky killing Tony’s parents from happening in the prime timeline. Old Steve part of the Prime timeline causes more issues than it fixes.

With the Russos explanation one could at least assume Steve intervened in the timeline he branched so he could prevent stuff like that from happening.

 

[Zarex]

An explanation for time traveling Steve not interfering in the Prime timeline is that he needed to avoid the potential horrifying repercussions of rooting out Hydra from SHIELD and other such shenanigans. And Citizen Steve could have been introduced to folks as a guy Cap rescued during the war that actually didn't survive. Old Timey Identity Theft!

It's gonna be super awkward meeting Peggy's niece, though.

 

[Raiden]

I support Russo Brother's explanation that Cap had created an alternate timeline by going back and growing old with Peggy. I think it can do a better job at resolving the timelines than having two Caps in the same timeline and assuming that Steve Rogers had not prevent major events because he was afraid to disrupt the timeline.

It may also give us Sharon Rogers from the comics in the future, as well.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

An explanation for time traveling Steve not interfering in the Prime timeline is that he needed to avoid the potential horrifying repercussions of rooting out Hydra from SHIELD and other such shenanigans. And Citizen Steve could have been introduced to folks as a guy Cap rescued during the war that actually didn't survive. Old Timey Identity Theft!

It's gonna be super awkward meeting Peggy's niece, though.

Spoiler

Anything we do could have horrifying repercussions, regardless of time travel. But I fail to see how rooting out Hydra or preemptively stopping Thanos would be likely to have worse repercussions than what already happened.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Spoiler

Well the truth is that you can easily posit that doing something that has positive connotations for the "right" reasons could have devastating affects in terms of time travel in a story. A perfect example of that is the Age Of Ultron story from the comics. Killing Hank Pym did result in a world without Ultron but the planet was put in jeopardy because this change resulted in a reality without the Avengers, a disbanded Fantastic Four with a dead Sue Storm, and the supremacy of a Morgan Le Faye who was on the verge of destroying everything.

While it would seem that Steve didn't come from a terrible reality at first glance who knows what still might unfold due to the changes he wrought?

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Spoiler

That has nothing to do with time travel though, it's just how life works. For all anyone knows, reviving all the dusted characters might turn them into zombies and thus cause a zombie apocalypse. Or maybe it pissed off a bunch of aliens that are even more dangerous than Thanos. Or any number of unknown terrible consequences might happen. Whereas the Peggy timeline might become a peaceful utopia. Who knows?

You can't just not do the right thing because it might have unexpected negative consequences, otherwise you'd never end up doing anything at all.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Spoiler

That has nothing to do with time travel though, it's just how life works. For all anyone knows, reviving all the dusted characters might turn them into zombies and thus cause a zombie apocalypse. Or maybe it pissed off a bunch of aliens that are even more dangerous than Thanos. Or any number of unknown terrible consequences might happen. Whereas the Peggy timeline might become a peaceful utopia. Who knows?

You can't just not do the right thing because it might have unexpected negative consequences, otherwise you'd never end up doing anything at all.

Spoiler

Well you asked how it could be worse doing something like rooting out Hydra as though an even worse outcome was impossible... But it's more than easy to come up with that kind of scenario.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Spoiler

Well you asked how it could be worse doing something like rooting out Hydra as though an even worse outcome was impossible... But it's more than easy to come up with that kind of scenario.

Spoiler

It didn't say it would be impossible, I just said it doesn't seem likely. It's technically possible that ANY action you do could end up with some unexpected terrible consequence.

 

[Darkprime]

So if the dance took place in an alternate timeline. Why did Cap come back really old?

 

[Darkprime]

Endgame screenwriter Christopher Markus contradicts the Russo Brothers statements on how old Cap returned back to the prime timeline, lol.




Well... this is interesting. It seems even the directors & screenwriters can't agree on how time travel works in the MCU!

They obviously aren't in constant communication during the press tour. But I'm more inclined to go with the Russo brothers answer. The writers even say its their theory. So its not really the official answer.

 

[Spider-Fan]

So if the dance took place in an alternate timeline. Why did Cap come back really old?

Because he stayed there and grew old there. Steve aged normally while he was on his "mission"

 

[samsnee]

I support Russo Brother's explanation that Cap had created an alternate timeline by going back and growing old with Peggy. I think it can do a better job at resolving the timelines than having two Caps in the same timeline and assuming that Steve Rogers had not prevent major events because he was afraid to disrupt the timeline.

It may also give us Sharon Rogers from the comics in the future, as well.

Yes I believe the prime timeline exists as we’ve known it. Peggy’s husband mentioned in WS is not Steve but a different person. Old Steve is our Steve but from a different timeline that branched out when he decided to stay behind. He then jumped back into the prime timeline.

 

[metaphysician]

So if the dance took place in an alternate timeline. Why did Cap come back really old?

Because he didn't come back for 70+ subjective years? Which is to say, he didn't return to our time from alternate-universe 1946. He returned from alternate-universe 2023, give or take, after having lived out the interim decades the long way.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

oh my word, here comes another attempt at explaining this timeline **** show.

Okay, so as I understand it, the timespace GPS tony invented is required to go backwards in time. In some freak scenario, you may be able to go backwards without it, but seemingly, the tendency is to go forwards (such as when Scott appears 5 years in the future after only being in the QR for 5 hours).

[Note: This is different from how the Time Stone deals with time travel which, from the perspective of the user, can fast forward/rewind time in limited proximity.]

So every time the pym particles/timespace GPS is used to reach a point in the past, a new timeline branch is created. The GPS records the coordinates (probably hundreds of terabytes of data) so that Cap can return to *THAT* exact moment again (not a new version of that moment). Here is a list of those timeline creations/alterations:

The Barton Timeline
1. Barton returns to 2018 for 5 minutes to test time travel. He takes a baseball glove. No substantial change is made, so this timeline is inert.

The Loki Timeline
2. Tony, Steve, Scott, and Bruce travel to 2012 NYC to retrieve the Space/Mind/Time stones. Loki escapes with the space stone.
2a. Steve returns to this timeline as the Time and Mind stones are removed. He returns them to TAO and Hydra (respectively) but is unable to stop Loki from escaping. This timeline is inherently different now from the core MCU.

The Frigga Timeline
3. Thor and Rocket arrive in 2013 Asgard, speak to Frigga and take Mjolnir/the reality stone.
3a. Cap returns Mjolnir and the reality stone, seconds after they are taken. Frigga dies later that day. This timeline is now inert.

The FUBAR Timeline
4. Nebula, Rhodey, Romanoff, and Barton travel to 2014. The power stone and soul stone leave, past nebula replaces future nebula. Thanos, Gamora, Future Nebula and the Black Order follow shortly thereafter. (Assumedly Ebony Maw studies the Pym particles and quantum leap suits in order to allow an entire ship to travel to the future).
4a. Cap travels to the exact moment Rhodey leaves with the power stone, finds both Star Lord and Nebula unconscious on the ground in the Morag temple. He'd most definitely be able to replace the soul stone, no problem. But what about the power stone? Does he do it before Korath comes to collect Nebula's lifeless body? But what then? He has to let them leave this timeline so Tony can snap Thanos' army in the future. So Cap most likely restrains Star Lord until Korath takes Nebula and leaves Morag. Once he's sure Thanos has left the timeline, gives Star Lord the orb, (much to his confusion) and leaves toward Vormir. Star Lord would then bring it to his buyer, who would refuse it (as Ronan still exists) and then Rocket/Groot would try to kidnap him, whether they still end up in prison decides the fate of Drax. But I'd assume this still gets them to the Collector. The collector's collection is destroyed just the same. But without Gamora, they'd probably still sell it to him. This gives the Collector two stones and no Thanos to compete with him. He's most definitely the most powerful being in the galaxy at this point.

The Lehigh Timeline
5. Steve and Tony travel to 1970 to retrieve the space stone and 4 vials of Pym particles. Tony has a conversation with his father.
5a. Cap returns the space stone to the SHIELD/Hydra vault and the particles to Dr. Pym's lab. Other than the Stark father/son talk, this timeline is now inert.

The Peggy Timeline
6. Steve returns to 1945 to spend his life with Peggy. I like to think that Steve's resolute nature was such that this always came to pass and is the same as the core MCU timeline (but it does seem like the Russo's confirmed this is a separate timeline).


So six new timelines, and three have such miniscule changes to them, they course correct and become inert reflections of our core timeline...

The Loki Timeline causes DRASTIC changes to Thor: The Dark world which would ripple through to Ragnarok and probably Infinity War. Does he ever take over the throne from Odin and exile him to earth? Does he sacrifice himself in an attempt to kill Thanos? Who knows? Will probably be explored in the Loki tv series.

Perhaps most interesting to me though, is the FUBAR timeline. Will we ever see what transpires here? Thanos no longer exists in this timeline to collect the stones (and therefore cannot destroy the stones). It's most likely that the Collector proceeds to collect the stones, but what does he do with them?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

 

[Mutant 77]

The GPS records the coordinates (probably hundreds of terabytes of data) so that Cap can return to *THAT* exact moment again (not a new version of that moment). Here is a list of those timeline creations/alterations:

The Barton Timeline
1. Barton returns to 2018 for 5 minutes to test time travel. He takes a baseball glove. No substantial change is made, so this timeline is inert.


?

1- Cap comes back to that APROX "exact moment", but seconds or minutes after, because he cannot bump into the previous time traveler who created the branch.

2- INERT? That doesn't mean anything. It exists and it will exist.

 

[MrWayne]

Spoiler

I wasn't a fan of Steve's final arc in EG, seeing him old and passing off the shield felt off for me and felt like it had turned into a Captain America movie finale the way it ended and faded to black. I didn't feel like I had seen the final Avengers movie. Last few minutes of this movie felt weird.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Spoiler

I wasn't a fan of Steve's final arc in EG, seeing him old and passing off the shield felt off for me and felt like it had turned into a Captain America movie finale the way it ended and faded to black. I didn't feel like I had seen the final Avengers movie. Last few minutes of this movie felt weird.

I think that's only fair seeing as how the avengers hijacked his Third outing and even some of his second (SHIELD, Fury, Widow and Falcon)

 

[drmick]

oh my word, here comes another attempt at explaining this timeline **** show.

Okay, so as I understand it, the timespace GPS tony invented is required to go backwards in time. In some freak scenario, you may be able to go backwards without it, but seemingly, the tendency is to go forwards (such as when Scott appears 5 years in the future after only being in the QR for 5 hours).

[Note: This is different from how the Time Stone deals with time travel which, from the perspective of the user, can fast forward/rewind time in limited proximity.]

So every time the pym particles/timespace GPS is used to reach a point in the past, a new timeline branch is created. The GPS records the coordinates (probably hundreds of terabytes of data) so that Cap can return to *THAT* exact moment again (not a new version of that moment). Here is a list of those timeline creations/alterations:

The Barton Timeline
1. Barton returns to 2018 for 5 minutes to test time travel. He takes a baseball glove. No substantial change is made, so this timeline is inert.

The Loki Timeline
2. Tony, Steve, Scott, and Bruce travel to 2012 NYC to retrieve the Space/Mind/Time stones. Loki escapes with the space stone.
2a. Steve returns to this timeline as the Time and Mind stones are removed. He returns them to TAO and Hydra (respectively) but is unable to stop Loki from escaping. This timeline is inherently different now from the core MCU.

The Frigga Timeline
3. Thor and Rocket arrive in 2013 Asgard, speak to Frigga and take Mjolnir/the reality stone.
3a. Cap returns Mjolnir and the reality stone, seconds after they are taken. Frigga dies later that day. This timeline is now inert.

The FUBAR Timeline
4. Nebula, Rhodey, Romanoff, and Barton travel to 2014. The power stone and soul stone leave, past nebula replaces future nebula. Thanos, Gamora, Future Nebula and the Black Order follow shortly thereafter. (Assumedly Ebony Maw studies the Pym particles and quantum leap suits in order to allow an entire ship to travel to the future).
4a. Cap travels to the exact moment Rhodey leaves with the power stone, finds both Star Lord and Nebula unconscious on the ground in the Morag temple. He'd most definitely be able to replace the soul stone, no problem. But what about the power stone? Does he do it before Korath comes to collect Nebula's lifeless body? But what then? He has to let them leave this timeline so Tony can snap Thanos' army in the future. So Cap most likely restrains Star Lord until Korath takes Nebula and leaves Morag. Once he's sure Thanos has left the timeline, gives Star Lord the orb, (much to his confusion) and leaves toward Vormir. Star Lord would then bring it to his buyer, who would refuse it (as Ronan still exists) and then Rocket/Groot would try to kidnap him, whether they still end up in prison decides the fate of Drax. But I'd assume this still gets them to the Collector. The collector's collection is destroyed just the same. But without Gamora, they'd probably still sell it to him. This gives the Collector two stones and no Thanos to compete with him. He's most definitely the most powerful being in the galaxy at this point.

The Lehigh Timeline
5. Steve and Tony travel to 1970 to retrieve the space stone and 4 vials of Pym particles. Tony has a conversation with his father.
5a. Cap returns the space stone to the SHIELD/Hydra vault and the particles to Dr. Pym's lab. Other than the Stark father/son talk, this timeline is now inert.

The Peggy Timeline
6. Steve returns to 1945 to spend his life with Peggy. I like to think that Steve's resolute nature was such that this always came to pass and is the same as the core MCU timeline (but it does seem like the Russo's confirmed this is a separate timeline).


So six new timelines, and three have such miniscule changes to them, they course correct and become inert reflections of our core timeline...

The Loki Timeline causes DRASTIC changes to Thor: The Dark world which would ripple through to Ragnarok and probably Infinity War. Does he ever take over the throne from Odin and exile him to earth? Does he sacrifice himself in an attempt to kill Thanos? Who knows? Will probably be explored in the Loki tv series.

Perhaps most interesting to me though, is the FUBAR timeline. Will we ever see what transpires here? Thanos no longer exists in this timeline to collect the stones (and therefore cannot destroy the stones). It's most likely that the Collector proceeds to collect the stones, but what does he do with them?

That's pretty much the same as this: