Endgame Let’s talk the T word (SPOILER DISCUSSION)

[MadVillainy]

Eh, and what she never introduced anyone to her husband?

Maybe Peggy said that he was a massive Cap fan and got plastic surgery to look like him. Like that one guy with Justin Bieber

 

[KINGTHANOS]

So time travel in the film is very different than a lot of other time travel films, I honestly can't think of one off the top of my head to compare it to. So the idea is that there is we have our MCU timeline, it is the main timeline and the center of it all. When you go back in time and change something, you create a branch. This branch becomes a new timeline, and basically allows our characters to do whatever the hell they want without consequence. When they travel back to the present, they are leaving the new branch and going back to the main base of the time stream. Here's a diagram to paint what it would kind of look like:



It's a little messy, but the idea is that anything connecting downward is one of these "branches" So the team who goes to 2014 created a new branch, and that branch's Thanos is the one traveling to the main timeline. This is why killing him has no effect on anything. It's why Loki is able to escape and everything is fine. But using these rules the film contradicts itself a couple of times.

1) Steve shouldn't be on that bench at the end. The film doesn't state it's an alternate Steve so that's not an explanation, it's our Steve we've been following. It's possible that he traveled back, but if he did he should've come back through the tunnel.
2) The Ancient One says the stones must be returned to their place in time because they hold the fabric of reality together. This is can't be true because they can be destroyed without consequence.
3) Thanos shouldn't have been able to travel to the main time line without the Pym Particles. Evil Nebula would've had to use the last of their supply to return in the first place.
4) Steve shouldn't be able to return the past stones to the where they got them. The film makes clear that they can only travel to points within their past, so he'd only be able to return to the original variation of the past films' events, eliminating the possibility to return the stones.

All in all, it's not the worst or most confusing of time travel, but personally I'm not a fan. It definitely cheapened a lot and made that aspect of the film feel inconsequential.

I think I can explain 2 & 3.

2) A stone was destroyed in 2 instances in our timeline. 1st was when Wanda destroyed it. I think Thanos quickly used the timestone to turn back the clock, before any damage could be done. 2nd was when he snapped to destroy them all. In this case, given how messed up he looked, I think he probably willed it so that his ideal reality remained intact while destroying the stones, which is an insane task. So the stones probably reverted back into their original state in non-stone form, or something similar, to keep reality in-tact.

3) Thanos is a scientist after all and one of the most brilliant minds in the universe. Perhaps he replicated the pym particles and used them to transport his entire fleet.

 

[Mutant 77]

So after thinking about it more, the spit time lines idea doesn't really work, because the film's ending contradicts the hell out of this.

If the idea is every time you travel to the past you are creating a new timeline, then Steve should never be able to return the stones to where they were originally stolen. They can only go back to dates within their own history, so going back at the end would just place him back in the original copies of the previous films' events. This would eliminate the whole need to place the stones back, because they shouldn't be able to return to the timelines they stole it from.

Apparently, returning the stones back invalidates the branching.

 

[Spidey220987]

Apparently, returning the stones back invalidates the branching.

The only dubious one is how does one return the Soul Stone? Did Cap’ just hand it to Red Skull offscreen? I don’t think it’s returned that way lol

 

[MadVillainy]

What did Jeff Daniels say in Looper?
“This time travel s***, just fries your brain like an egg…”

 

[Spidey220987]

I think I can explain 2 & 3.

2) A stone was destroyed in 2 instances in our timeline. 1st was when Wanda destroyed it. I think Thanos quickly used the timestone to turn back the clock, before any damage could be done. 2nd was when he snapped to destroy them all. In this case, given how messed up he looked, I think he probably willed it so that his ideal reality remained intact while destroying the stones, which is an insane task. So the stones probably reverted back into their original state in non-stone form, or something similar, to keep reality in-tact.

3) Thanos is a scientist after all and one of the most brilliant minds in the universe. Perhaps he replicated the pym particles and used them to transport his entire fleet.

Evil Nebula (AKA Nebula 2014) had the Pym Particles in her fingertips (was the red liquid inserted into the machine while Hulk was doing his own snap). Think she was “reverse engineering” the process to allow Thanos through.

 

[Spidey220987]

What did Jeff Daniels say in Looper?
“This time travel s***, just fries your brain like an egg…”

LOL

 

[Mr. Peanut]

To me, Cap was her husband all along.

Cap could have changed stuff like stop HYDRA or save Bucky...and it would have been a fun alternate timeline for HIM, but the main MCU timeline would be what it was for the characters we knew.

And let’s say he saves Bucky in the 50’s - what’s the ripple effect? If Bucky doesn’t kill Stark’s parents, does Tony become Iron Man to be able to stop Thanos? Etc etc. And where’s the line? Is Cap obligated to prevent 9/11? Stop the Zodiac killer? Or just accept his retirement and know that in the end everyone will end up at least in the timeline where they won.

Besides, Hawkeye had a secret family. Fury’s secrets had secrets. Why is it so crazy for people to believe that Steve with a mustache and fake name being Peggy’s husband that’s “always busy with work” couldn’t have been snuck through?

The problem is that time travel explicitly doesn't work like that in Endgame. Cap should be able to kick Hydra's ass in the past all live long day and it shouldn't effect the future of the main timeline any more than Nebula killing her past self did. Nebula didn't cease to exist when her past self died, because Nebula's past self had become part of a separate timeline.

 

[Deck Rickard]

The only dubious one is how does one return the Soul Stone? Did Cap’ just hand it to Red Skull offscreen? I don’t think it’s returned that way lol

I'm not sure but I'm really hoping that when Steve saw the Red Skull, he punched him out one last time.

 

[MadVillainy]

You know what i think? I think they should've had a stable time line and instead of them basically inventing a time machine, the whole heist should've been about getting the time stone and using that.
-That establishes we can't just use time travel whenever we want to stop problems in subsequent movies
-More stakes I think
-Would explain a lot of stuff...and also would create a lot of new problems

Time travel is just a b****. There are ways to do it where things don't make sense like Looper. But I still think the best time travel stories are the "simple" ones like Terminator, T2, and the Back to the Future trilogy. Sure there are plot holes, but they aren't as gaping as other time travel movies and don't try to go all out there with the concept.

 

[MadVillainy]

I'm not sure but I'm really hoping that when Steve saw the Red Skull, he punched him out one last time.

Right in his Michael Jackson no nose having, Nazi face

 

[Spidey220987]

Also every film, kicking off with Far From Home, starts in 2023 now?

 

[Deck Rickard]

You know what i think? I think they should've had a stable time line and instead of them basically inventing a time machine, the whole heist should've been about getting the time stone and using that.
-That establishes we can't just use time travel whenever we want to stop problems in subsequent movies
-More stakes I think
-Would explain a lot of stuff...and also would create a lot of new problems

Time travel is just a b****. There are ways to do it where things don't make sense like Looper. But I still think the best time travel stories are the "simple" ones like Terminator, T2, and the Back to the Future trilogy. Sure there are plot holes, but they aren't as gaping as other time travel movies and don't try to go all out there with the concept.

Yeah, time travel always convolutes things. Even if one of my favorite recent time travel movies (Safety Not Guaranteed) there are implications that if time travel actually worked, it could undo the entire movie.

I almost wish they would have gone a different route with it, like they did in The Leftovers. SPOILERS AHEAD: in that show, after a "Snapture"-like event, Carrie Coon (who ironically voiced Proxima Midnight in Infinity War) uses a machine to go to another world where everyone who disappeared is living. In that world, they believe that the people living in the main world that we've been following on the show were the ones who disappeared. The only thing is, we never actually see her visit this world; she just tells Justin Theroux's character about it after the fact. So it's left open to interpretation whether she actually went to this place or not. But here, we could have actually seen them go to this other world and learn that Thanos didn't actually kill half the universe, he just split the universe in two.

I'm sure that would bring its own problems though and maybe it wouldn't have been as good. And I'm fine with the way the movie played out. It just would have been an interesting path to take as opposed to the time travel stuff, though that gave us some really great scenes and amazing callbacks to other good Marvel movies (and even bad ones like TDW, lol).

 

[Tony Stark]

What was represented was string theory in the film. So the "usnapped" characters are all from the prime timeline, but Gamora and Loki and Mjolnir are taken from separate branches and in Gamora and Mjolnir's case brought back to the prime timeline. So there's a branch where Thor doesn't have hammer because it was taken out of the timeline, and Gamora pre Guardians is now in the prime timeline free of Thanos but not knowing her Guardians compatriots. Nebula killed her earlier self, but doesn't create a paradox, because only prime Nebula exists.

 

[MadVillainy]

Yeah, time travel always convolutes things. Even if one of my favorite recent time travel movies (Safety Not Guaranteed) there are implications that if time travel actually worked, it could undo the entire movie.

I almost wish they would have gone a different route with it, like they did in The Leftovers. SPOILERS AHEAD: in that show, after a "Snapture"-like event, Carrie Coon (who ironically voiced Proxima Midnight in Infinity War) uses a machine to go to another world where everyone who disappeared is living. In that world, they believe that the people living in the main world that we've been following on the show were the ones who disappeared. The only thing is, we never actually see her visit this world; she just tells Justin Theroux's character about it after the fact. So it's left open to interpretation whether she actually went to this place or not. But here, we could have actually seen them go to this other world and learn that Thanos didn't actually kill half the universe, he just split the universe in two.

I'm sure that would bring its own problems though and maybe it wouldn't have been as good. And I'm fine with the way the movie played out. It just would have been an interesting path to take as opposed to the time travel stuff, though that gave us some really great scenes and amazing callbacks to other good Marvel movies (and even bad ones like TDW, lol).

I watched the first season of the Leftovers. It wasn't for me, but I heard the next 2 seasons were really good but I never got around to it.
Your idea is really interesting. And I think I like that a bit. However, I liked how everyone died with the snap. They were dead, even though they come back I feel like them dying is more effective then just being sent to another universe

 

[Charzhin0]

What was represented was string theory in the film. So the "usnapped" characters are all from the prime timeline, but Gamora and Loki and Mjolnir are taken from separate branches and in Gamora and Mjolnir's case brought back to the prime timeline. So there's a branch where Thor doesn't have hammer because it was taken out of the timeline, and Gamora pre Guardians is now in the prime timeline free of Thanos but not knowing her Guardians compatriots. Nebula killed her earlier self, but doesn't create a paradox, because only prime Nebula exists.

This presents a problem as anyone who has similar goals to Thanos can simply go back to any point in history, collect the infinity stones, make a gaunlet and time travel back into the prime timeline with a brand new infinity gauntlet read to do whatever the holder wants. In theory you could have 100 different people in the prime timeline all who have equipped an infinity gauntlet.

 

[Chief275]

The way I understood it as the Ancient One described the timelines, is that when any of the Infinity Stones are removed from a point in time (call that Timeline A - the timeline the MCU exists in) then it creates a splintered separate timeline (Timeline B). The stones (singularities of the universe) are the key to keeping the timeline in tact, not necessarily the actions of living beings. By going back and returning the stone to the time in which it was taken in Timeline A, thereby never disrupting the timeline, Timeline B disappears.

Cap returns all the stones and Mjolnir to their respective times, and Timeline A is restored.

Cap then travels back in Timeline A to when he is frozen in the ice and marries Peggy. He lives a life with her while frozen Cap still also exists, living up to the moment when he goes back in time.

 

[djsunyc]

The thing is once you introduce time travel you have to wonder why they won’t just use it all the time, especially if they’ve specifically said it won’t change the past, just create a separate branch.

b/c there's going to be some bad ramifications at some point. every new timeline created will create new heroes but also new villians. and at some point, someone will figure out how to go from timeline to timeline. but this is now open to future storytelling that i'm almost guaranteed will be discussed in some future movie.

 

[MadVillainy]

Cap then travels back in Timeline A to when he is frozen in the ice and marries Peggy. He lives a life with her while frozen Cap still also exists, living up to the moment when he goes back in time.

But then does he cause Peggy to get a divorce (kinda a d*** move. How is Peggy supposed to turn down: "I travelled back in time for you) and then does that make Sharon, who kissed, Steve related to Steve? Don't like that implication.

 

[Chief275]

But then does he cause Peggy to get a divorce (kinda a d*** move. How is Peggy supposed to turn down: "I travelled back in time for you) and then does that make Sharon, who kissed, Steve related to Steve? Don't like that implication.

I think that when she says shes married, shes referring to being married to Cap from the future who came back to marry her. Cap kissing Sharon is only related to her via marriage not blood so it's not as weird I guess?

 

[djsunyc]

The way I understood it as the Ancient One described the timelines, is that when any of the Infinity Stones are removed from a point in time (call that Timeline A - the timeline the MCU exists in) then it creates a splintered separate timeline (Timeline B). The stones (singularities of the universe) are the key to keeping the timeline in tact, not necessarily the actions of living beings. By going back and returning the stone to the time in which it was taken in Timeline A, thereby never disrupting the timeline, Timeline B disappears.

Cap returns all the stones and Mjolnir to their respective times, and Timeline A is restored.

Cap then travels back in Timeline A to when he is frozen in the ice and marries Peggy. He lives a life with her while frozen Cap still also exists, living up to the moment when he goes back in time.

what cap actually accomplished is TBD. we don't know if he was successful or if what he did caused other timelines instead. that gives the MCU many options in the future.

also, the ancient one admitted that she might be wrong.

 

[djsunyc]

I think that when she says shes married, shes referring to being married to Cap from the future who came back to marry her. Cap kissing Sharon is only related to her via marriage not blood so it's not as weird I guess?

cap going back and staying with peggy created another timeline imho.

 

[Chief275]

what cap actually accomplished is TBD. we don't know if he was successful or if what he did caused other timelines instead. that gives the MCU many options in the future.

Good point. I guess we assume that he would complete his mission before going to get married, but we don't really know how successful he was.

 

[MadVillainy]

I think that when she says shes married, shes referring to being married to Cap from the future who came back to marry her. Cap kissing Sharon is only related to her via marriage not blood so it's not as weird I guess?

I mean I guess. She could've been lying to the cameras, but I just don't like that retcon. You know that wasn't what they were thinking in TWS. And then, and I don't know much about Alzeheimers, but it didn't seem to affect all of her memory just recent in the last few years memories. If she married and grew old with Steve why would she be surprised to see Steve alive.

THe movie goes out of the way to say time isn't a stable timeline, but then it kinda tries to create one at the end.

And that may not be as weird, but that's still some nasty nonsense over here.

 

[MadVillainy]

Good point. I guess we assume that he would complete his mission before going to get married, but we don't really know how successful he was.

Cap wouldn't settle until his mission was for sure complete. Cap doesn't stop until he has 100% lost like with the Thanos snap in Wakanda when he just sat down and said "oh God"