Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

[Sithborg]

Books are cancelled before the second issue is released. Hell, with Marvel, books are cancelled before the first trade is released. There are a few issues with that method.

I also saw another reason, in that Marvel doesn't really advertise their new books that well. Especially the most likely smaller books.

 

[sweetre15]

Books are cancelled before the second issue is released. Hell, with Marvel, books are cancelled before the first trade is released. There are a few issues with that method.

1. How often does that happen?

2. If those books sell 10,000 or less, It’s probably fair to scrap them if they aren’t atleast well developed enough to have a fan following

I also saw another reason, in that Marvel doesn't really advertise their new books that well. Especially the most likely smaller books.

What would probably help is the writers of these books actually promoting them on their twitter instead of bickering about politics and fans incessantly.....Just a suggestion.

 

[Scarecrow_King]

1. How often does that happen?

2. If those books sell 10,000 or less, It’s probably fair to scrap them if they aren’t atleast well developed enough to have a fan following



What would probably help is the writers of these books actually promoting them on their twitter instead of bickering about politics and fans incessantly.....Just a suggestion.

The biggest thing that would help is a book ordering system where stores don't have to order issues 3 or 4 -- especially for new books -- before issue #1 is even on the stands.

There's no telling how a book will sell. Retailers are forced to guess, so any new book on the shelves has all the chips stacked against them.

 

[JewishHobbit]

2. If those books sell 10,000 or less, It’s probably fair to scrap them if they aren’t atleast well developed enough to have a fan following

Wow, sales are that bad these days? When last I stopped paying attention to them the cancellation range was around 30,000.

What would probably help is the writers of these books actually promoting them on their twitter instead of bickering about politics and fans incessantly.....Just a suggestion.

Bingo. I used to follow a lot of comic writers on Twitter and am now down to zero. It turned into one of those "never meet your heroes" type of scenarios. And being that I'm conservative, most of them didn't exactly come across as someone I'd like to sit and chat with. Of course, that results in me not being as interested in titles by specific writers. I can't get myself to read a Dan Slott book anymore for the life of me after seeing some of his Twitter tirades. And he used to be my favorite writer back during the Avengers: Initiative days. Nick Spencer is another one after his All Republicans Are Evil stances.

 

[RockSP]

What would probably help is the writers of these books actually promoting them on their twitter instead of bickering about politics and fans incessantly.....Just a suggestion.

The actual comic book company with lots of $$$ for promotion should promote them too...just a suggestion.

 

[JewishHobbit]

The actual comic book company with lots of $$$ for promotion should promote them too...just a suggestion.

True... but when the writers insult half the nation with their politics, that'll shut doors before the company even tries.

 

[RockSP]

It's disingenuous to suggest that every writer of every book in question is on twitter "insulting half the nation".

 

[JewishHobbit]

It's disingenuous to suggest that every writer of every book in question is on twitter "insulting half the nation".

Literally a thing I never said or insinuated.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

I certainly won't try to speak for every writer however Dan Slott is very much in the category of "pissing off" fans.

Slott is notorious for not only using Twitter to insult, provoke and/or berate fans he also spends quite a bit of time taking to forums to do the exact same behavior. Often talking down to fans that have opposing views to the point of assuming that it's basically only a few people using multiple sock puppet accounts. People who are only there to try and harass poor Dan who by his own admission is just an innocent victim. A victim who lies btw, on multiple occasions. Dan's problem is that he is too much of the wrong kind of fan, one who can't even listen to other people's opinions, cause of course they are wrong, but also can't take any criticism either because he is so very insecure. It's not difficult to see this when examining his posts which have gone to some pretty awful places such as making a point that most people who criticize his work suffer from some type of mental illness. It's also interesting that as often as Dan shows up on the CBR forums he also claims he just doesn't have the time to do so. So little time in fact that he can't even finish his own stories and needs Gage to come in and help

If it wasn't enough that he does belittle fans, the arguments he gets into with fans will rub him so sour he'll put that bitterness into his work. Look at the Power Play story for a great example of this. That's not the actions of a professional writer rather it's the actions of an insecure fan. It's no wonder ASM is barely selling 50k copies a month. Crappy writing, plots and characters along with an unprofessional attitude and insulting fans are not a good combo. I think it's worth pointing out that just prior to OMD, the book was selling around 70-80k copies and management used that 'low' amount of sales to help justify the dissolution of the Spider marriage. The book wasn't selling well according to the creative teams and it was all because of the marriage. So, what's the excuse now? The only reason ASM is still the best selling title is because all the rest are doing so incredibly bad.

While I do like some of the stories he's done, by far his best work is well in the past and I'll be happy once he's gone. Imo minus Ock he cares nothing for these characters and really only cares about his own legacy.

Marvel needs some serious help and getting rid of Slott is another stepping stone to positive change.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I certainly won't try to speak for every writer however Dan Slott is very much in the category of "pissing off" fans.

Slott is notorious for not only using Twitter to insult, provoke and/or berate fans he also spends quite a bit of time taking to forums to do the exact same behavior. Often talking down to fans that have opposing views to the point of assuming that it's basically only a few people using multiple sock puppet accounts. People who are only there to try and harass poor Dan who by his own admission is just an innocent victim. A victim who lies btw, on multiple occasions. Dan's problem is that he is too much of the wrong kind of fan, one who can't even listen to other people's opinions, cause of course they are wrong, but also can't take any criticism either because he is so very insecure. It's not difficult to see this when examining his posts which have gone to some pretty awful places such as making a point that most people who criticize his work suffer from some type of mental illness. It's also interesting that as often as Dan shows up on the CBR forums he also claims he just doesn't have the time to do so. So little time in fact that he can't even finish his own stories and needs Gage to come in and help

If it wasn't enough that he does belittle fans, the arguments he gets into with fans will rub him so sour he'll put that bitterness into his work. Look at the Power Play story for a great example of this. That's not the actions of a professional writer rather it's the actions of an insecure fan. It's no wonder ASM is barely selling 50k copies a month. Crappy writing, plots and characters along with an unprofessional attitude and insulting fans are not a good combo. I think it's worth pointing out that just prior to OMD, the book was selling around 70-80k copies and management used that 'low' amount of sales to help justify the dissolution of the Spider marriage. The book wasn't selling well according to the creative teams and it was all because of the marriage. So, what's the excuse now? The only reason ASM is still the best selling title is because all the rest are doing so incredibly bad.

While I do like some of the stories he's done, by far his best work is well in the past and I'll be happy once he's gone. Imo minus Ock he cares nothing for these characters and really only cares about his own legacy.

Marvel needs some serious help and getting rid of Slott is another stepping stone to positive change.

What was the deal with the Power Play story? I've not read Spider-Man consistently since OMD... just the first 9 or 10 issues of Big Time and Superior Spider-Man (which is overrated in my opinion). I don't plan on bothering until after he's off the title. It's just not Spider-Man to me anymore. Though... I do plan on eventually reading the Ben Reilly stuff since I'm a major Clone Saga nerd. Maybe the Kaine stuff.

I'm also not a fan of him because he started mocking me once after finding out that I used to buy my comics at a shop run by a guy who he apparently used to get into major online beefs with (Bob at Queen City Comics near Cincinnati). I didn't know a thing about it and somehow my shop came up and he just started laughing and mocking my taste in shops. I don't recall what all he said but it was highly inappropriate. Especially since we weren't even arguing or anything. Bob's a great guy. I miss going to that shop (and buying comics in general).

 

[Sithborg]

Yeah, quite a few comic creators should not be on social media. They seem to get way, way too defensive.

I have seen enough to say that Spencer has issues.

 

[Scarecrow_King]

Didn't Slott used to come around here as well? I feel like I remember a few posters getting into some lengthy tussles with him.

 

[mightiest_mortal]

Allow me to add my 2 cents on the "Diversity" issue..

Marvel has ALWAYS been diverse. The X-Men were their biggest titles and they were full of strong powerful women and even led for a while by an African woman. Black Panther, as just one other example, has always been a huge fan favourite for decades with some popular runs.

The problem is that over the past years, Marvel has treated Diversity as if it was one of their events, and the quality of the different titles has been as ropey and varied as the tie-ins of any of their other big events. Some great, lots mediocre and some awful.

Add to this the bizarre new notion in media that only a woman can write a woman, only a black person can write a black character, and only a gay Latinx can write a gay latinx (Claremont wrote the best Storm and is as far from an African woman as you can get).. and we've ended up with a heap of writers with so little experience that for some this was literally their first time writing comics. Some have done great with the change in medium.. others not so much.

Marvel comics are just priced too high for people to be gambling to such a degree in the quality of what they read. They'll only stick it out for characters they know and love already. And then, when Marvel implied that a lot of its readers had some issue against diversity (basically calling them all racists lol) then it was the final straw for a lot of people that had been holding out.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Didn't Slott used to come around here as well? I feel like I remember a few posters getting into some lengthy tussles with him.

Yep. He was fairly regular back before he started writing Spider-Man. I think he was working on She-Hulk, GLA, and Avengers: Initiative at the time. He was a pretty cool dude back before Twitter.

 

[sweetre15]

Allow me to add my 2 cents on the "Diversity" issue..

Marvel has ALWAYS been diverse. The X-Men were their biggest titles and they were full of strong powerful women and even led for a while by an African woman. Black Panther, as just one other example, has always been a huge fan favourite for decades with some popular runs.

The problem is that over the past years, Marvel has treated Diversity as if it was one of their events, and the quality of the different titles has been as ropey and varied as the tie-ins of any of their other big events. Some great, lots mediocre and some awful.

Add to this the bizarre new notion in media that only a woman can write a woman, only a black person can write a black character, and only a gay Latinx can write a gay latinx (Claremont wrote the best Storm and is as far from an African woman as you can get).. and we've ended up with a heap of writers with so little experience that for some this was literally their first time writing comics. Some have done great with the change in medium.. others not so much.

Marvel comics are just priced too high for people to be gambling to such a degree in the quality of what they read. They'll only stick it out for characters they know and love already. And then, when Marvel implied that a lot of its readers had some issue against diversity (basically calling them all racists lol) then it was the final straw for a lot of people that had been holding out.

Yes before now we’ve had characters of different racial backgrounds, sexual orientations etc come from Marvel especially in X-Men but now their races, sexuality and gender etc are literally their characters now or atleast 80% of their personas.

If your character is that you’re black, gay or a women etc then that character is limited creatively because they can only be a statement on those things.

 

[Sithborg]

I don't think Marvel should be given a hard time for attempting to bring in new talent, diverse new talent.

I do think some issues seem to get conflated at times. Some of the instant legacy characters that they made were not handled correctly. And that is a separate issue than having an issue with "diversity".

As for Slott, interacting with so much negativity can have a bad effect on you. And to be quite frank, I am quickly finding less and less fandoms that are healthy for a creator to interact with.

 

[sweetre15]

I don't think Marvel should be given a hard time for attempting to bring in new talent, diverse new talent.

I do think some issues seem to get conflated at times. Some of the instant legacy characters that they made were not handled correctly. And that is a separate issue than having an issue with "diversity".

It’s not really an issue with actual diversity but there newly defined version of diversity where they have race and all that be 90% of the characters essence with no real personality, no real struggles, no sacrifices etc

Then there’s the part where they hire solely based on diversity checklists and not factor in actual merit.

That’s the main difference between people like Louise Simonson, Ann Nocenti, Jo Duffy, Christopher Priest, George Perez, and Gail Simone and people like Ta Nehisi Coates, Gabby Rivera, David F Walker, Mags Visaggio etc. The former’s race, gender or sexuality was incidental to the fact that overall they understood the craft and the field they’re working in so they told good stories.

 

[RockSP]

Allow me to add my 2 cents on the "Diversity" issue..

Marvel has ALWAYS been diverse. The X-Men were their biggest titles and they were full of strong powerful women and even led for a while by an African woman. Black Panther, as just one other example, has always been a huge fan favourite for decades with some popular runs.

BP may have been a "fan favorite" (what does that even mean? I'm sure Ambush Bug is a fan favorite to his limited number of fans, lol), but he has only had popular runs very recently. The Christopher Priest run (my favorite) was not popular at the time of its publication, and was Panther's first ongoing since the 70s. It has only been in the 21st century that Panther has gotten a lot of shine, starting with the Hudlin run.

 

[Sithborg]

It’s not really an issue with actual diversity but there newly defined version of diversity where they have race and all that be 90% of the characters essence with no real personality, no real struggles, no sacrifices etc

Then there’s the part where they hire solely based on diversity checklists and not factor in actual merit.

That’s the main difference between people like Louise Simonson, Ann Nocenti, Jo Duffy, Christopher Priest, George Perez, and Gail Simone and people like Ta Nehisi Coates, Gabby Rivera, David F Walker, Mags Visaggio etc. The former’s race, gender or sexuality was incidental to the fact that overall they understood the craft and the field they’re working in so they told good stories.

So, where do you put G. Willow Wilson? Whose gender and religion all factor predominately into Ms. Marvel? And is considered great. Dwayne McDuffie and Milestone would also probably have some disagreements.

 

[random_havoc]

Didn't Slott used to come around here as well? I feel like I remember a few posters getting into some lengthy tussles with him.

Yeah I had lengthy debates with him about OMD because he refused to admit it was terrible. I always found him to be very polite and kind in my interactions with him here and with his posts on Facebook. I don't use Twitter much but I find it hard to believe that he's as negative on there as you gents are saying given what I've seen him post elsewhere. Not saying you're liars, just seems unlike everything I've seen him do otherwise.

 

[sweetre15]

So, where do you put G. Willow Wilson? Whose gender and religion all factor predominately into Ms. Marvel? And is considered great. Dwayne McDuffie and Milestone would also probably have some disagreements.

As I’ve mentioned before they still tell subjectively good stories outside of literally making their surface traits their entire personality. Which is why Kamala Khan caught on when she did.

The others I mention above don’t actually seem to understand what storytelling and character development actually is.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

What was the deal with the Power Play story? I've not read Spider-Man consistently since OMD... just the first 9 or 10 issues of Big Time and Superior Spider-Man (which is overrated in my opinion). I don't plan on bothering until after he's off the title. It's just not Spider-Man to me anymore. Though... I do plan on eventually reading the Ben Reilly stuff since I'm a major Clone Saga nerd. Maybe the Kaine stuff.

I'm also not a fan of him because he started mocking me once after finding out that I used to buy my comics at a shop run by a guy who he apparently used to get into major online beefs with (Bob at Queen City Comics near Cincinnati). I didn't know a thing about it and somehow my shop came up and he just started laughing and mocking my taste in shops. I don't recall what all he said but it was highly inappropriate. Especially since we weren't even arguing or anything. Bob's a great guy. I miss going to that shop (and buying comics in general).

Yeah, I pretty much stopped 'buying' ASM since OMD but I still 'read' them so I can keep tabs on my favorite character. Also, I like to be able to form a real opinion on the happenings with the characters and stories...

Anyway, did you ever read the initial ASM Renew Your Vows mini-series? If not, I'd suggest picking it up. It's written by Slott but he actually puts in some of his better work and it makes for a fine story. I mention this because, the Power Play arc is essentially taking some of the story elements from RYV and putting it into a main-continuity. The villain Regent is the biggest element that is utilized. And of course, RYV features a married Peter and MJ with a daughter, Annie...that obviously isn't included in Power Play.

That said, fans were getting excited because there was speculation that this story was to bring Peter and MJ together again in the main continuity. MJ still over in Invincible Iron Man at this time shows up in the story with Tony as his assistant to some party or charity deal where Peter is also attending. Long story short, Dan Slott got upset about how fans were making speculations and voicing their opinion about Peter/MJ as a great couple, etc etc., he let his emotions get the best of him and churned out some really awful work. Issue #14, I believe, was one of the worst stories I've read in awhile. It was beyond cringe-inducing with the dialogue and how it painted Peter as this complete moron, acting like an emotional 15 year old. Tony really wasn't much better and MJ as usual, per Slott, was acting like a b*tch and still blaming Peter for everything that went wrong in her life. As a Spidey fan, that issue was straight up embarrassing.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Yeah, I pretty much stopped 'buying' ASM since OMD but I still 'read' them so I can keep tabs on my favorite character. Also, I like to be able to form a real opinion on the happenings with the characters and stories...

Anyway, did you ever read the initial ASM Renew Your Vows mini-series? If not, I'd suggest picking it up. It's written by Slott but he actually puts in some of his better work and it makes for a fine story. I mention this because, the Power Play arc is essentially taking some of the story elements from RYV and putting it into a main-continuity. The villain Regent is the biggest element that is utilized. And of course, RYV features a married Peter and MJ with a daughter, Annie...that obviously isn't included in Power Play.

That said, fans were getting excited because there was speculation that this story was to bring Peter and MJ together again in the main continuity. MJ still over in Invincible Iron Man at this time shows up in the story with Tony as his assistant to some party or charity deal where Peter is also attending. Long story short, Dan Slott got upset about how fans were making speculations and voicing their opinion about Peter/MJ as a great couple, etc etc., he let his emotions get the best of him and churned out some really awful work. Issue #14, I believe, was one of the worst stories I've read in awhile. It was beyond cringe-inducing with the dialogue and how it painted Peter as this complete moron, acting like an emotional 15 year old. Tony really wasn't much better and MJ as usual, per Slott, was acting like a b*tch and still blaming Peter for everything that went wrong in her life. As a Spidey fan, that issue was straight up embarrassing.

Yeah, I've read Renew Your Vows. It was great, and the ongoing was pretty good too, though I've not read the last few issues.

And yeah, that sounds about right for Slott. Can't have anyone thinking Peter and MJ would actually WORK together. God forbid.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Yeah I had lengthy debates with him about OMD because he refused to admit it was terrible. I always found him to be very polite and kind in my interactions with him here and with his posts on Facebook. I don't use Twitter much but I find it hard to believe that he's as negative on there as you gents are saying given what I've seen him post elsewhere. Not saying you're liars, just seems unlike everything I've seen him do otherwise.

How he was here and how he has been on Twitter are very different. I thought he was amazing while on here, but obviously I think otherwise now after following him on Twitter for a few years. He comes across as a good guy who can't handle differences in opinions whether it's about comics, politics, religion, etc. He can get rather belligerent.

 

[Neptune]

I still think it's beyond insane that Marvel basicly made Captain Marvel their flagship character when they have freaking Spider-man at their disposal.