The Last Jedi Luke Skywalker's role in "The Last Jedi": Did you like it?

[InCali]

It was the first use on Force Projection/Doppelganger in canon but the ability had appeared in the old EU. Pretty sure Luke uses it in Dark Empire.

Did not know that. Cool. Thanks for the factoid.

Because it was not sincere. Luke's not a coward. He faces his problems.

I see. The point was that Luke was afraid of Kylo so he did some force projection. I missed that the first time. Maybe I'll go see it again for clarification.

That scene is like the whole TLJ, it's fake.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKAY. Nice to know.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

A couple assumptions I've noticed from fans debating with those that weren't happy.

One is a lot of comments mentioning that what we got is better than triple flip kick prequel fights. Most just wanted a scene like Vader had in Rogue One.

The second is that everything about the movie would remain the exact same but it would be a real fight instead of a projection. I actually would be fine with the projection if it didn't result in his death, tho I would want a Vader rogue one scene in 9. Maybe a complete reworking of the movie with a different climax. Maybe keep it the same and have a ship of storm troopers track Rey to Luke, not knowing Luke is there and he takes them out. Then u could still have the projection scene.

Also, I want to know if ideally Rey should not fight in 9, since a lot of fans are mentioning that Luke shouldn't fight based on the Yoda quote

 

[InCali]

I don't mind double, triple, quadruple whatever flips kicks and didn't have a problem with the cowardly projection fighter either. The movie doesn't have to be what I would ideally like. I thought the Luke fight was a cool twist. If others don't like it, fine. I think the movie that will make or break this trilogy will be Ep 9. Will they hang together? Also, I think there had to be a lot of collaboration as to the direction they were taking. You just don't do whatever you want and leave it to someone else to pick up the pieces. Though, to be honest, I don't see a lot of pieces to pick up. I'd like to see Kylo still standing at the end of Ep 9, but if he isn't I'm not going to pick up my toys and go home. I can even handle it if I think Ep 9 isn't up to snuff. I've got enough good will towards the franchise to handle a bump in the road.

 

[hellblazer103]

Yeah, I kinda find the idea of him actually having a character arc and growing/changing, as well as eventually overcoming his pessimism in an ultimate act of sacrifice and heroism in the vein of Obi Wan himself much more compelling than for him to be... Just ... Exactly the same as he was , like , 30 some years ago. That's just me, though....

 

[Venomfan]

Yeah, I kinda find the idea of him actually having a character arc and growing/changing, as well as eventually overcoming his pessimism in an ultimate act of sacrifice and heroism in the vein of Obi Wan himself much more compelling than for him to be... Just ... Exactly the same as he was , like , 30 some years ago. That's just me, though....

Another assumption I see often. No one says they don't want a character arc and growth

 

[hellblazer103]

So why is there such an outrage when they get it?

 

[Venomfan]

So why is there such an outrage when they get it?

Because character arc and growth doesn't exclusively mean the scenario we got in this movie

 

[Mjölnir]

Another assumption I see often. No one says they don't want a character arc and growth

Exactly. It's pretty illogical to think that people that loved the OT and didn't like TLJ don't want any growth, seeing how Luke changed with each film in the previous films. It comes across as blindly lashing out at people that didn't like it rather than actually looking at what's being said.

The point has consistently been wanting change that fully fits with what we learn about the character in the previous films. Development instead of replacement. Luke, not Jake.

 

[Flemm]

Regarding Luke's arc in the movie (spoiler tagging this, just to be careful):

Spoiler

The movie seems convinced that Luke desperately needs redemption, due to his apparent actions between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens.

I say "apparent actions" because this movie interprets TFA in a certain way that is very pessimistic for Luke, and portrays him in a very negative light for most of the movie, so that he can then be redeemed as a hero at the end of the movie.

So that explains the reaction, I think, at least partially.

Luke does have an arc in the movie, which is a redemption arc, but it's obvious that he has that arc due to his actions being interpreted in a very negative light expressly for that purpose.

For that reason, it doesn't feel very organic (arguably). It comes across as a manipulation of the character to create a certain effect, rather than a natural evolution.

 

[Aximili86]

That's pretty sweet, didn't know that. Something about that scene did feel very "EU" to me, in a cool way though. The slightly de-aged Hamill might have added to that.

Interesting, did Rian say he's supposed to be "de-aged"?

I took it as more just "cleaned up". An idealized look, how he'd look if he hasn't been all "the end is nigh!" on an island for 6 years.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

V from V for Vendetta:

"Ideas are bulletproof."

I think this message of Luke's standoff.

What message can you convey with cheat code Luke wiping out AT-AT's as a one man army?

 

[Mad Ones]

V from V for Vendetta:

"Ideas are bulletproof."

I think this message of Luke's standoff.

What message can you convey with cheat code Luke wiping out AT-AT's as a one man army?

 

[Flemm]

Speaking of myself personally, my issue isn't with how Luke was handled, though it is a little contrived.

It's that Johnson is too interested in Luke, and not enough in the new characters who should be central to this trilogy. It's one thing to give a character a good send-off, but it's quite another to essentially sacrifice everything else in order to do that.

"Ideas are bulletproof."

I think this message of Luke's standoff.

It could interesting, but it's a distraction mostly, right?

It's not really that Luke is representing a powerful idea (like non-violence or something), but more that Kylo is obsessed with him, so this image is an effective delaying tactic.

I'd like there to be something thematically impressive happening there, but I don't really see it.

 

[InCali]

Speaking of myself personally, my issue isn't with how Luke was handled, though it is a little contrived.

It's that Johnson is too interested in Luke, and not enough in the new characters who should be central to this trilogy. It's one thing to give a character a good send-off, but it's quite another to essentially sacrifice everything else in order to do that.



It could interesting, but it's a distraction mostly, right?

It's not really that Luke is representing a powerful idea (like non-violence or something), but more that Kylo is obsessed with him, so this image is an effective delaying tactic.

I'd like there to be something thematically impressive happening there, but I don't really see it.

I just had a great idea. Maybe Ep 9 could be Luke's Jedi spirit standing next to Kylo's bed and singing "99 Bottle of Beer on the Wall" all night.

That could work.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

"Luke would never harm consider hurting a child"


Did we all forget the vision Luke had of his face in Vader's cracked open helmet? Anakin slaughtered completely innocent children on two seperate occasions. But Luke can never be tempted by the darkside to follow his father's past? That betrays his character even though he shows resolve and resists?


"Luke would never exile himself"

Both Obi Wan and Yoda stayed in exile until they knew they could make a lasting impact. Just like Luke did.


"Luke should've physically saved the day with a raw display of power"

Repeating AOTC's climax? Where's the fun in that?

Ya'll are bashing Luke for doing a way cooler version of ANH and Obi Wan's stalling tactic.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

V from V for Vendetta:

"Ideas are bulletproof."

I think this message of Luke's standoff.

What message can you convey with cheat code Luke wiping out AT-AT's as a one man army?

This.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Speaking of myself personally, my issue isn't with how Luke was handled, though it is a little contrived.

It's that Johnson is too interested in Luke, and not enough in the new characters who should be central to this trilogy. It's one thing to give a character a good send-off, but it's quite another to essentially sacrifice everything else in order to do that.



It could interesting, but it's a distraction mostly, right?

It's not really that Luke is representing a powerful idea (like non-violence or something), but more that Kylo is obsessed with him, so this image is an effective delaying tactic.

I'd like there to be something thematically impressive happening there, but I don't really see it.

Um, entire military divisions on both sides witnessed what a legendary master jedi can do.

No doubt it made history and gave life to a resistence on it's final deathbed.

 

[Flemm]

Um, entire military divisions on both sides witnessed what a legendary master jedi can do.

But that has nothing to do with "ideas being bulletproof," or whatever.

It's just a show of power. How is that different from a more direct show of power?

 

[Sithborg]

But that has nothing to do with "ideas being bulletproof," or whatever.

It's just a show of power. How is that different from a more direct show of power?

Simple. It affects one side more differently. Or, the fact that it was an illusion doesn't really matter to the impact to the Rebels. But to the First Order, and more specifically, Kylo Ren, it is a very, very different impact. Luke robbed Kylo Ren of perhaps one of the most important things he wanted. To kill Luke.

Kylo isn't exactly the most emotionally stable on the best of days. Add in the events of the past 2 movies, along with a chance of grumpy old hermit Luke dropping by to stir the pot, the First Order is going to have some leadership issues.

 

[writer0327]

Um, entire military divisions on both sides witnessed what a legendary master jedi can do.

No doubt it made history and gave life to a resistence on it's final deathbed.

...and made its way all the way to some kid with a broom who hopes and dreams of being as powerful and heroic one day.

"Rebellions are built on hope..."

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Simple. It affects one side more differently. Or, the fact that it was an illusion doesn't really matter to the impact to the Rebels. But to the First Order, and more specifically, Kylo Ren, it is a very, very different impact. Luke robbed Kylo Ren of perhaps one of the most important things he wanted. To kill Luke.

Kylo isn't exactly the most emotionally stable on the best of days. Add in the events of the past 2 movies, along with a chance of grumpy old hermit Luke dropping by to stir the pot, the First Order is going to have some leadership issues.

Maybe in a some side story in ancillary media like books or comics but... I think it would be in character for Kylo to execute every single member of the First Order fighting force on Crait that day sparing Hux to keep his humiliation by Luke under wraps as best as he could.


Thing is... If there's anything like Twitter or Facebook in the SW universe, he's screwed.


I also think Kylo probably killed those TIE pilots that took the shot when he didn't at the start of the film.

What I'm saying is... Kylo is probably a really bad boss to work for.

 

[Flemm]

Simple. It affects one side more differently. Or, the fact that it was an illusion doesn't really matter to the impact to the Rebels. But to the First Order, and more specifically, Kylo Ren, it is a very, very different impact. Luke robbed Kylo Ren of perhaps one of the most important things he wanted. To kill Luke.

That's a tactical distinction. It makes it a more effective ruse, potentially.

It doesn't really add anything thematically, though, or make Luke represent something greater in that moment. He tricks Kylo in a way that is clever.

...and made its way all the way to some kid with a broom who hopes and dreams of being as powerful and heroic one day.

"Rebellions are built on hope..."

Luke physically being there could also have been inspiring.

The force image projection is a convoluted device, but I'm struggling to see any thematic significance that a more straight-forward confrontation could not have had.

For example, Holdo's sacrifice is also inspiring, right? But it's much more direct. She's actually there when it happens.

Unless the idea is that Luke succeeds in creating a false sense of hope by seeming to be invulnerable when he really is not. But I don't think that is the message, it's just supposed to be surprising initially.

To the extent that Luke represents something greater, I guess it would be the idea of the Jedi... or something. But I don't think he would need to be an image in order to represent that.

 

[InCali]

But that has nothing to do with "ideas being bulletproof," or whatever.

It's just a show of power. How is that different from a more direct show of power?

Simple. It affects one side more differently. Or, the fact that it was an illusion doesn't really matter to the impact to the Rebels. But to the First Order, and more specifically, Kylo Ren, it is a very, very different impact. Luke robbed Kylo Ren of perhaps one of the most important things he wanted. To kill Luke.

Kylo isn't exactly the most emotionally stable on the best of days. Add in the events of the past 2 movies, along with a chance of grumpy old hermit Luke dropping by to stir the pot, the First Order is going to have some leadership issues.

Yes....it affects one side more than the other and, from the perspective of Kylo's minions, it shows that their power and, by extension, their leader's power is relatively insignificant. They emptied their arsenal and saw someone flip some, alleged, debris from his shoulder. THAT wouldn't affect you? In addition, those they had cornered got away.

It also affects Kylo's psyche. All of his efforts, and those efforts were in front of those he commanded, were completely and utterly fruitless. Can you spell "morale and confidence problems" boys and girls? I knew you could.

Think about Kylo's temper and recklessness and how he'll react to "See you around kid" and the embarrassment of being completely and utterly shown up in front of his followers. Personally, I wouldn't want to be in the same room with Kylo after these events.

Bottom line is that Luke showed up Kylo, damaged his confidence, damaged the confidence of his followers, allowed the rebels to escape and gave a boost to their confidence. The $#!T is going to hit the fan in Ep 9.

I don't see what the problem is with this setup for the next movie and don't think this is the last Kylo has seen of Luke.

 

[InCali]

Maybe in a some side story in ancillary media like books or comics but... I think it would be in character for Kylo to execute every single member of the First Order fighting force on Crait that day sparing Hux to keep his humiliation by Luke under wraps as best as he could.


Thing is... If there's anything like Twitter or Facebook in the SW universe, he's screwed.


I also think Kylo probably killed those TIE pilots that took the shot when he didn't at the start of the film.

What I'm saying is... Kylo is probably a really bad boss to work for.

Maybe he'll get a promotion???

 

[Brother Jack]

Luke's primary conflict in the story was the disparity between the legend of Jedi Master Luke Skywalker that he was associated with and who he really was, a flawed man with regrets and mistakes. That's the key to his failure with Ben and his would-be Jedi resurgence, that he could not live up to the expectations put upon him by his old masters, that in the long run he couldn't be the "last hope". So the force projection was a way for him to own that legend and present the ideal of it rather than the fallible human that he actually was, which is able to inspire the next generation of potential heroes in the galaxy, Jedi and Rebel alike. If he had gone to Crait in the flesh he would have been obliterated by blaster fire and the legend would have died with him.

It's all very similar to the ideas Nolan was digging into with The Dark Knight Trilogy. That of a man becoming a symbol and the conflict between the man's frailty and the immortal, incorruptible nature of the myth.