Making the Nolan trilogy fit into the EU

[DoomRulz]

I wasn't sure where to put this, so mods, if I screwed up, please feel free to adjust it as necessary.

While I really liked Batfleck, part of me still wonders what things would have been like had the Nolan films been used to introduce the EU in 2012. The only ideas I have at the moment would be to either have Joseph Gordon-Levitt return as a new Batman (a la Batman Beyond) and continuing on as they would with Man of Steel, or, Bale simply takes Affleck's place with him hearing about the destruction of Metropolis due to Superman's fight with Zod and he ends up returning to Gotham out of a sense of duty to the city he swore to protect.

Other ideas?

 

[Deserana]

It would have been such an odd tone it wouldn't have fit IMO, I can not imagine BatBale in full armour costume and buying it.

 

[DoomRulz]

It would have been such an odd tone it wouldn't have fit IMO, I can not imagine BatBale in full armour costume and buying it.

How come?

 

[wampa1]

You can retcon it so that BatBale came out of retirement, relegated JGL to Robin (and it's his costume we see in BvS) and then BatBale then becomes Batfleck. And Alfred loses about 20 years.

However, it's a daft idea.

 

[elgaz]

Nolan's trilogy wouldn't have worked in the EU, hence why they went with a rebooted universe. I'm not sure how you could have made it work in any way, and even if so, why would you?

Tonally and aesthetically it was very different from MOS and BvS, and given the Nolan films span 8 years (give or take) you'd wonder why no superpowered beings were ever mentioned or introduced. When Gotham was seconds away from being decimated by a nuclear bomb in TDKR, where were all the superheroes?

 

[DoomRulz]

Nolan's trilogy wouldn't have worked in the EU, hence why they went with a rebooted universe. I'm not sure how you could have made it work in any way, and even if so, why would you?

Just a thought experiment, more than anything else.

Tonally and aesthetically it was very different from MOS and BvS, and given the Nolan films span 8 years (give or take) you'd wonder why no superpowered beings were ever mentioned or introduced. When Gotham was seconds away from being decimated by a nuclear bomb in TDKR, where were all the superheroes?

You could make the same argument for where all the supers were in Iron Man when Iron Monger runs rampant in the city and only IM is there to stop him. Granted the scenario isn't as catastrophic, but even in a post-Avengers MCU, they always find excuses for why the entire team isn't working together in the solo films.

 

[Vartha]

It would have been such an odd tone it wouldn't have fit IMO, I can not imagine BatBale in full armour costume and buying it.

It can tho. Bruce's bday in the Trilogy was 30, fits Ben's age in BvS and Bruce disappears (DOESN'T die you never SEE that) at the end of the trilogy.

The mansion in BvS reminds me of the end of that trilogy. The only thing we don't SEE between the two films is the Robin(s) and his death because it's plainly shown

 

[DoomRulz]

It can tho. Bruce's bday in the Trilogy was 30, fits Ben's age in BvS and Bruce disappears (DOESN'T die you never SEE that) at the end of the trilogy.

The mansion in BvS reminds me of the end of that trilogy. The only thing we don't SEE between the two films is the Robin(s) and his death because it's plainly shown

The Robin thing could be a major continuity issue as, if that's (supposedly anyway) mirroring A Death In The Family, it won't be Jason Todd. I guess that's the fanboy in me speaking but there it is.

 

[Micromind]

It can tho. Bruce's bday in the Trilogy was 30, fits Ben's age in BvS and Bruce disappears (DOESN'T die you never SEE that) at the end of the trilogy.

The mansion in BvS reminds me of the end of that trilogy. The only thing we don't SEE between the two films is the Robin(s) and his death because it's plainly shown

I agree with this.

If Bale had agreed to play Batman in the extended DCU, they would have written the "Robin" part out of the story.

As things stand now, it could be seen as a vague continuation in a similar way as TIH can be seen as a vague continuation of Ang Lee's Hulk, as Bruce Banner disappears at the end of Ang Lee's HULK movie to hide somewhere in South America.

 

[FunkMiller]

I'm convinced at one point the BvS Batman was the TDK Batman:

Older, battered version of the character. Wayne Manor no longer used because of the orphans, so he lives in a glass house on the grounds. The idea that Superman brings him back out of the shadows / retirement.

You can see the changes going through once Bale said no, and they had to make it a new iteration of the character.

...and change the tone and feel of the movie altogether, of course. Nolan's world does not square well with Snyder's. Nolan would have either had to continue as director, or oversee someone else (not Snyder) closely.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Except TDK Bats is heroic, noble and selfless.

 

[DoomRulz]

I'm under the impression Batfleck was at one point, before Superman showed up. Hence Alfred's, "Everything's changed" schpiel.

 

[FunkMiller]

Except TDK Bats is heroic, noble and selfless.

Well, yeah. There is that one major problem, and something would have definitely needed a rewrite.

TERRIO: "Hey Zack! Do we keep Batman's nobility, sense of purpose and code of honour in the rewrite?"

SNYDER: "Hell no! The Snyder wants to see some big Bat killing goddamn it! More guns! More explosions! More pointless, pointless death!"

TERRIO: "I'm going to punch Affleck in the ****ing head when I see him."

 

[Baneis8feettall]

Nah, i rather keep it that separate.

TKDT is one of the few trilogies that has 3 great to masterpiece movies in the genre along with Star Wars and Lord of the Rings in their genres. Continuation without Nolan's vision for these characters might leave bad taste about it.


Plus it would still not be better than what we have got since the decision makers/directors/writers are different.

Nolan wasn't gonna be the guy on top of entire JL universe. He isn't interested on that job. So probably we would still Snyder and other guys in DC ruining what Nolan accomplished.

 

[Baneis8feettall]

Well, yeah. There is that one major problem, and something would have definitely needed a rewrite.

TERRIO: "Hey Zack! Do we keep Batman's nobility, sense of purpose and code of honour in the rewrite?"

SNYDER: "Hell no! The Snyder wants to see some big Bat killing goddamn it! More guns! More explosions! More pointless, pointless death!"

TERRIO: "I'm going to punch Affleck in the ****ing head when I see him."

I'm not sure Terrio is all innocent with these adaptations. Especially when he is brought to movie for a reason.

 

[FunkMiller]

I'm not sure Terrio is all innocent with these adaptations. Especially when he is brought to movie for a reason.

Yeah, you're probably right I just enjoy slapping Snyder about because he's responsible overall for this POS movie

 

[FunkMiller]

TKDT is one of the few trilogies that has 3 great to masterpiece movies in the genre along with Star Wars and Lord of the Rings in their genres.

Possibly two and a half masterpiece movies IMO

 

[shauner111]

OK imagine an older, retired, but more adjusted Bruce Wayne coming back into the picture in order to help humanity. He (Bale) was off in Italy with Selina Kyle, but he witnesses the Superman/Zod fiasco on television like the rest of the world. He has zero ambition to get back to Gotham or inside a cowl, but he feels helpless in Europe when he can be helping people in Metropolis. He blows his "Bruce Wayne is dead" cover, in order to have a talk with Lex Luthor. Not Eisenberg (who can still be Lex Jr here) but Lex as most of us know him. Bryan Cranston or Joaquin Phoenix were rumored so let's go with them. Bruce and Lex put their heads and enterprises together (Lexcorp & Wayne Enterprises) to rebuilt the city that Lex helped build for decades. Together they see the harm Superman has caused and can cause.

5 years have past since The Dark Knight Rises. 2 since Man of Steel.

I can get into Lucius, Blake, Selina, Alfred, Gordon etc later.

It would have been such an odd tone it wouldn't have fit IMO, I can not imagine BatBale in full armour costume and buying it.

An odd tone?

If Affleck can do full armour costume then so can Bale. It's not even about acting when he was going up against Superman. It's all in the suit, CGI, voice modulation. If Bale was down for bulking up like Batman Begins, it would have worked just fine.

Bale could have worked in Ben's grey suit as well. It would look a little leaner but i love that. You don't need bodybuilder Batman to make it work, even though Ben's size is cool too.

Nolan's trilogy wouldn't have worked in the EU, hence why they went with a rebooted universe. I'm not sure how you could have made it work in any way, and even if so, why would you?

Tonally and aesthetically it was very different from MOS and BvS, and given the Nolan films span 8 years (give or take) you'd wonder why no superpowered beings were ever mentioned or introduced. When Gotham was seconds away from being decimated by a nuclear bomb in TDKR, where were all the superheroes?

It could have worked. I wouldn't want to see it ruined now that i've seen Snyders style over substance habits. But nevertheless, it could have worked and provided more development and a stronger foundation for this Extended Universe. We could have had origin stories for both heroes. A Bruce Wayne that we've been invested in for 11 years. I also guarantee box-office would have been even better for opening weekend.

Aesthetically it sure was. It's simple. Super-powered beings weren't introduced to the vast population until Superman made his presence known. They could have made Man of Steel set a few years after The Dark Knight Rises. After Batman vs Superman (i would think this would be a different title with Bale/Nolan involved), we see more super-powered beings coming out of the wood work. Superheroes weren't around when Gotham was held hostage by Bane for 5 months. Only Clark dealing with his powers, in his 20's, not knowing what he can or can't do. You can make Gotham and Metropolis a little further away from each other. Clark doesn't know how to fly yet. Diana might have been in hiding for the last 100 years so it's possible that she hasn't been Wonder Woman for a very long time. And she could have been on the other side of the planet for all we know.

Except TDK Bats is heroic, noble and selfless.

Haha of course. Maybe Batfleck was too once upon a time. But if this was Bale's selfless version entering the DCEU, they could have used that to better the film.

I'm convinced at one point the BvS Batman was the TDK Batman:

Older, battered version of the character. Wayne Manor no longer used because of the orphans, so he lives in a glass house on the grounds. The idea that Superman brings him back out of the shadows / retirement.

You can see the changes going through once Bale said no, and they had to make it a new iteration of the character.

...and change the tone and feel of the movie altogether, of course. Nolan's world does not square well with Snyder's. Nolan would have either had to continue as director, or oversee someone else (not Snyder) closely.

Very interesting. I used to argue this point. That Bale's version was originally intended for this. Goyer's draft probably had all of that. Blake/Robin either died or had a falling out with Bruce once he returned.

 

[DoomRulz]

OK imagine an older, retired, but more adjusted Bruce Wayne coming back into the picture in order to help humanity. He (Bale) was off in Italy with Selina Kyle, but he witnesses the Superman/Zod fiasco on television like the rest of the world. He has zero ambition to get back to Gotham or inside a cowl, but he feels helpless in Europe when he can be helping people in Metropolis. He blows his "Bruce Wayne is dead" cover, in order to have a talk with Lex Luthor. Not Eisenberg (who can still be Lex Jr here) but Lex as most of us know him. Bryan Cranston or Joaquin Phoenix were rumored so let's go with them. Bruce and Lex put their heads and enterprises together (Lexcorp & Wayne Enterprises) to rebuilt the city that Lex helped build for decades. Together they see the harm Superman has caused and can cause.

5 years have past since The Dark Knight Rises. 2 since Man of Steel.

I can get into Lucius, Blake, Selina, Alfred, Gordon etc later.

I'm very intrigued. Please continue!

Bale could have worked in Ben's grey suit as well. It would look a little leaner but i love that. You don't need bodybuilder Batman to make it work, even though Ben's size is cool too.

I don't see why size would matter anyway. I recall reading an article comparing Batfleck to Balefleck and it said, "Bale's Batman would have been no match for Cavill's Superman because of his size" and I thought, what the hell? Batman's size is irrelevant. Freaking Ant-Man could fight Superman as long as he has kryptonite.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

Agree with those who say that it wouldn't have worked or fit, and also I prefer the Nolan Trilogy to stand on its' own as a complete, standalone story. It was time for the character to move on into a world closer to the comics, although I love the real world vibe of the Nolan movies. I also love the new Batman and think Affleck is great, I don't even try to compare the two, I just consider myself lucky to have both.


I would love to see a follow up to the Nolanverse and see where JGL goes from the end of TDKR, but I just don't think that would really work as a good Batman movie, and I think Nolan ended it in the appropriate way. Bruce Wayne finally got a happy ending, something we never really got in any other Batman story that I can think of, and the symbol of The Bat lives on to watch over Gotham.


My biggest curiosity at the end of it all is: did JGL continue the legacy of Batman, or did he do his own thing as Nightwing

 

[King23DC]

No. Keep that Bat cinematic gospel story to it's own entity. Don't you dare cram it into this hodge podge of cheesy cinematic shared universes. Ripe with terrible movies and film makers. Thanks.

 

[InJustice]

My god.

People really can't just leave the Nolan movies alone.

 

[elgaz]

What it boils down to is that Nolan wasn't interested in supernatural elements, methumans or superpowered beings in his films. His Batman was set in a world where only humans exist. Even Bane's abilities were downplayed somewhat, given that his mask in TDKR was used to feed him pain controlling gas rather than the muscle-enhancing venom like in the comics.

I just can't see why you would want to merge that world with one where there's aliens, time travel, superpowered beings and so on. Too many compromises would have to be made to get those two totally incongruent approaches to meld together.

It's also totally ignoring the fact that Nolan's story was told. Batman started off in Batman Begins, he took a downward spiral, and at the end of TDKR he picks himself up again and finally finds some sense of peace, or even happiness after numerous years of isolation and solitude. To try and bring him back down again, making him this tired, worn and vexed Bruce Wayne that he is in BvS, just seems like a step backwards.

 

[Batsfan1]

What it boils down to is that Nolan wasn't interested in supernatural elements, methumans or superpowered beings in his films. His Batman was set in a world where only humans exist. Even Bane's abilities were downplayed somewhat, given that his mask in TDKR was used to feed him pain controlling gas rather than the muscle-enhancing venom like in the comics.

I just can't see why you would want to merge that world with one where there's aliens, time travel, superpowered beings and so on. Too many compromises would have to be made to get those two totally incongruent approaches to meld together.

The MOS universe in it's inception was always meant to be a realistic world where Superman shows up in though, wasn't it? Sounds workable to me.

It's also totally ignoring the fact that Nolan's story was told. Batman started off in Batman Begins, he took a downward spiral, and at the end of TDKR he picks himself up again and finally finds some sense of peace, or even happiness after numerous years of isolation and solitude. To try and bring him back down again, making him this tired, worn and vexed Bruce Wayne that he is in BvS, just seems like a step backwards.

Eh. I wouldn't have gone with the approach that BvS had really. I would have had Bruce go through an arc where he figures out how to make Bruce and Batman work together in moderation. Have him struggle with the idea of taking up the cowl again, then do it because he has to or feels he does and then bring him to a place where he realizes that he doesn't have to be Batman all the time, just when necessary. He reinforces his suit and everything for bigger threats, saying that he'll leave Gotham to Robin and be Batman when he's needed to be. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[elgaz]

The MOS universe in it's inception was always meant to be a realistic world where Superman shows up in though, wasn't it?

It's a different kind of realism though. The Nolan films went for a world where realism = no superpowers, just like ours. Which ruled out some of the more fantastical villains in Batman's roster, such as Killer Croc, Solomon Grundy, Clayface, etc. Even Ra's Al Ghul was presented in a way which ignored his Lazarus pit, and his centuries-old age as written in the comics. Every single character in the Nolan films is a 'normal' human; they live and die in a normal timeframe, and there's no powers to help them. Some are amazingly skilled and well trained, but still human.

MOS introduced superpowers (and by extension, thus allowed us to consider the concept of other 'unrealistic' concepts present in the DC universe, such as magic, time travel, immortality, etc) but did so in a gritty and believable way, as if Superman himself had dropped into modern-day New York. Aesthetically it doesn't really matter if this is a superpowered universe or not, but thematically it allows for major differences in concepts and ideas introduced in the films.

The two approaches are quite different, for me at least. I see MOS as a superhero film. I see Nolan's films as well plotted and well written crime/action films, which happen to have a central character who, by happenchance, is a superhero. I'll probably open a can of worms when I say this, but if Nolan hadn't taken on Batman, but still had the idea and concept for the story of TDK, he could still have made that film, and it would still have worked. The Joker would be replaced by a crazed villain, Batman would be replaced by a Jason Bourne/James Bond type, and so on. That's what I mean when I say his films feel like the plot is centric and the DC characters were worked into it around that. By comparison, you can't really do that with the majority of other superhero films I can think of - most take the DC/Marvel universes and characters as a starting point, and mould a plot around them to work.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with trying to make the two universes work together (though I would consider it messy at best), but I just don't see what there is to gain. By wiping the slate clean and starting afresh with a Batman live in a world of superpowered heroes and villains, that gives the makers of these properties much more flexibility. Plus, Affleck has completely owned the role so far and was able to do so by making it his own, and not trying to follow Nolan's characterisation of Wayne and Batman.