Comics Marc Guggenheim's latest explanation for why some folks hate Brand New Day

[kguillou]

I'm thinking that maybe somehow someway, maybe magic wasnt involved. We know that the Scarlet spiders are gonna come into play at some point. I was thinking of a scenario: what if one of the scarlet spiders pretended to be the real spiderman and made a big speech to everyone admitting that he asked peter parker to take the fall and pretend to be spiderman so that he, the "real" one, wouldnt have to reveal his identity. Since everyone knows that Peter and spiderman have a close relationship, "spiderman" would claim that it was a favor he asked of peter so his identity would remain safe....or something like that. its a rough theory and it still wouldnt explain why spidey's superhero buddies dont remember his i.d. anymore unless they're all just extremely naive, it also doesn't explain why norman doesnt remember, because norman of all people, definitely knows that peter was spiderman. i dunno, just tossing out theories.

 

[farmernudie]

Yeh, there are hints now that MArvel is going to stear away from the devil and all...and try to add other layers to explain the reboot and the new world that was created.

THing is, that is dumb(er).

Why bring the devil into it to begin with, if you're gonna try to explain it away without the devil and the deal he made regardless of anything else they may say did the deal and made it all happen!?

 

[kguillou]

The thing is, there had to have been some level of magic somewhere, because there are certain people like Daredevil, the new avengers, norman osborn, eddie brock, black cat etc. who know for SURE that peter IS spiderman. There's no logical way to trick them into thinking otherwise. The venom symbiote bonded with peter parker for god's sake and it doesnt even remember who it bonded to? So there has to be some level of magical involvement somewhere in explaining how everyone forgot peter's i.d.

 

[Themanofbat]

Yeh, there are hints now that MArvel is going to stear away from the devil and all...and try to add other layers to explain the reboot and the new world that was created.

THing is, that is dumb(er).

Why bring the devil into it to begin with, if you're gonna try to explain it away without the devil and the deal he made regardless of anything else they may say did the deal and made it all happen!?

The Mephisto deal involved was simply to erase the marriage from existance... everything else will have an explanation of some sort.

The thing is, there had to have been some level of magic somewhere, because there are certain people like Daredevil, the new avengers, norman osborn, eddie brock, black cat etc. who know for SURE that peter IS spiderman. There's no logical way to trick them into thinking otherwise. The venom symbiote bonded with peter parker for god's sake and it doesnt even remember who it bonded to? So there has to be some level of magical involvement somewhere in explaining how everyone forgot peter's i.d.

There will be some form of magic involved, but that will be in order to make everybody forget the identity... probably at Peter's request... making me think that it will be Loki... now that s(he) is back in the Marvel Universe...

There will be explanations for the continuity faux-pas... all Mephisto was invovled in was the erasure of their marriage.

 

[Themanofbat]

You're crazy! Those Bendis DD issues were golden!!

I didn't read the Bendis stories... I'm going by what was told, and that was that Spidey made a "brief" appearance... which doesn't sound like much of a team-up.

 

[shinlyle]

I didn't read the Bendis stories... I'm going by what was told, and that was that Spidey made a "brief" appearance... which doesn't sound like much of a team-up.

Well, the first one was directly after Matt was outted as DD. Mr Hyde showed up at Nelson and Murdock, ramming a van into their brownstone. Spidey shows up, and webs the van, pulls it out of his hands, and then swings it into Mr. Hyde's head while insulting him. My Hyde keeps going on about how he has "defeated the MIghty Thor single-handedly", and DD shows up and takes him down. Spidey then quips, "Took down the mighty Thor....yeah, right".

Pretty good.

THe second one involved DD being called in to testify at a trial where Matt was the defense attorney. Peter posed as DD, ans upon exitting, Matt noted how hard Peter was showing off by doing quite the super-powered jump and swing as he left the courthouse.

Decent.

The third one was dumb, as it was one of the first instances of Peter being as imbecile with his secret ID, as he goes, UNMASKED, with Reed Richards, Dr. Strange, and Luke Cage, all in their civvies, to talk some sense into Matt after he proclaimed himself "the new Kingpin". Peter pretty much revealed his ID to all of them right there.

Dumb.

The last one was pretty solid, as it involved the Yakuza, equipped with Mutant Growth Hormone (MGH) fighting to take control of Hell's Kitchen away from DD. DD gets a little crazy, and is finally aided by Spidey, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist. During the battle, Luke Cage stares one baddie down, only to have hit cower in fear. Spidey quips:"Man, you beat the guy with a look! I need to get a look!" THen, after it's all said and done, Luke and Iron Fist insult Spidey, to which he replies, "I don't need this, I have a hot wife at home". Iron Fist comments, "I always thought he was gay", to which Cage says, "Says the guy in the yellow booties". Iron Fist then says, "Hey, you bought them for me'< and Luke says, "THat doesn't help you, man".

Solid.


There may have been one or two more, but I can't recall them off of the top of my head.

Either way, the Bendis DD run is the best since Miller. The Brubaker run is shaping up to be formidable, too.

 

[kguillou]

Yo thanks for that recap Shinlyle, man i miss the days when Bendis' dialogue was awesome and unique. That banter between spidey, Cage and ironfist is classic. I think Bendis' work on Daredevil was his absolute best, even better than Ultimate Spider-man.

 

[Miken Ayers]

Well, the first one was directly after Matt was outted as DD. Mr Hyde showed up at Nelson and Murdock, ramming a van into their brownstone. Spidey shows up, and webs the van, pulls it out of his hands, and then swings it into Mr. Hyde's head while insulting him. My Hyde keeps going on about how he has "defeated the MIghty Thor single-handedly", and DD shows up and takes him down. Spidey then quips, "Took down the mighty Thor....yeah, right".

Pretty good.

THe second one involved DD being called in to testify at a trial where Matt was the defense attorney. Peter posed as DD, ans upon exitting, Matt noted how hard Peter was showing off by doing quite the super-powered jump and swing as he left the courthouse.

Decent.

The third one was dumb, as it was one of the first instances of Peter being as imbecile with his secret ID, as he goes, UNMASKED, with Reed Richards, Dr. Strange, and Luke Cage, all in their civvies, to talk some sense into Matt after he proclaimed himself "the new Kingpin". Peter pretty much revealed his ID to all of them right there.

Dumb.

The last one was pretty solid, as it involved the Yakuza, equipped with Mutant Growth Hormone (MGH) fighting to take control of Hell's Kitchen away from DD. DD gets a little crazy, and is finally aided by Spidey, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist. During the battle, Luke Cage stares one baddie down, only to have hit cower in fear. Spidey quips:"Man, you beat the guy with a look! I need to get a look!" THen, after it's all said and done, Luke and Iron Fist insult Spidey, to which he replies, "I don't need this, I have a hot wife at home". Iron Fist comments, "I always thought he was gay", to which Cage says, "Says the guy in the yellow booties". Iron Fist then says, "Hey, you bought them for me'< and Luke says, "THat doesn't help you, man".

Solid.


There may have been one or two more, but I can't recall them off of the top of my head.

Either way, the Bendis DD run is the best since Miller. The Brubaker run is shaping up to be formidable, too.

The story with Pete dressing up as DD in the court room was Gale's arc right before Bendis took over.

 

[deathshead2]

They should just bring the beyonder back and siad he did it as an experiment to see what would happen.

There problem solved.

 

[Miss Webb]

What in the living hell does this have to do with ANYTHING?

What a *****ebag. Still not buying Spidey and proud of it, which I am still astounded by to this day. Thanks, Marvel!

LOL, that's what I was thinking...it's like saying if I wear my red shoes it will rain next Wednesday...

Seems like the braintrust is just saying anything idiotic because they feel fatigue from angry spidey fans. But if they can't say anything intelligent, rational OR relevant, maybe its time to go on vacation. And yeah, watch sales continue to drop as they piss off more fans.

Unless they're planning on hooking Pete up with Osborne, which is a mental image I can do without.

 

[Miss Webb]

Yeh, there are hints now that MArvel is going to stear away from the devil and all...and try to add other layers to explain the reboot and the new world that was created.

THing is, that is dumb(er).

Why bring the devil into it to begin with, if you're gonna try to explain it away without the devil and the deal he made regardless of anything else they may say did the deal and made it all happen!?

because they KNOW they look like pinheads for even going down that road...its just a lame attempt at damage control.

"SEE, WE WERE GONNA CHANGE THIS ALL ALONG!"

Yeah, right...

 

[farmernudie]

They should NOT try adding some additional depth to a pile of poop.

They're gonna be like..."see...the devil didn't really do it....we just had Pete make a deal with the devil, but he can't make it happen, so all these dominoes fell only because the devil nudged the dominoes but someone else set the dominoes up secretly, so the devil and magic don't really get the credit and yyou should pay attention to the smoke and mirrors over HERE NOW...and forget about the horny devil that was OVER THERE."

 

[kguillou]

^^Exactly, the extreme fan backlash from this is scaring marvel to death, so they're already trying to fix this, now apparently Mephisto has barely done anything at all. Seriously did marvel not anticipate this kind of backlash? Did they not expect people to be genuinely pissed off that the greatest super hero in comics sold his soul to the devil? Peter could have made the deal with anybody else, and i guarantee you the fans would have been way more accepting, but they chose Mephisto of all people. I mean imagine how much better and cooler it would have been if Peter made a deal with Dr. Doom for example. THAT would have been intriguing.

 

[Styleshift]

This whole thing with Spidey has gotten hilarious beyond belief.

Joey Q. is probably Marvel's greatest EIC but at the same time you've got to realize he's made some very bad decisions regarding Spidey ON PURPOSE.

JMS has stated that he figured he'd be able to retcon the gwen kids before he left, and that he would return Spidey to the Stan Lee's days. So most likely they've known as far back as Sins past that they would go down this route. So I'm guessing thats when this whole return to the silver age plan really went into motion. (seeing thats where we also started getting depressing story back to back.)

The story telling by JMS run is very inconsistent. I think he did a really good job of balancing the dark elements that more recent spidey fans are used to with humor that modern fans would find funny.

At the beginning of his run, JMS probably wrote the best humor in Spidey books IMO.
Unlike some writers like Guggenheim he didnt try too hard to be funny. He made Peter witty and he NAILED IT.

Than suddenly during the events that Joe starts actively promoting (again the sins past era) we start to get depressing event after depressing event, with Peter acting HORRIBLY out of character.
which were obviously made to generate sales for a while....

than use it as an excuse to basically say, ok. we did this for a reason. to force you to like the continuity we're about to play around with since we KNOW this isn't what you love about the character.

Joey Q. (since he is basically the personalization of marvel currently) has staked his entire rep on his personal belief that Spidey should be single. HIS belief. because some people actually dont care. I honestly liked the fact that Peter had someone that supported him as Spidey, it also took out the annoying soap opera drama....I mean how many times do we need to see Spidey mess up Peter's relationships?

Marvel is even actively pushing away some of their loyal fans that love continuity.
with Bob Gale and Guggenheim insulting the fan base. Wacker's been the only one professional about it. I hope he stays on the book for along time.

The funny thing is that, for me Amazing has lost much of its attractiveness. I loved the continuity and now they've just made it too much of a headache to follow. Now its much easier to miss arcs. I pick up NWTD only because of the names that worked on the book and not because of the title character. of course after the next part I'll be dropping it again because I find the OMD/BND continuity annoying. like they are writing inside a small box.

They even have a couple of back doors to get out of this and hit ANOTHER retcon button. (MJ whispering)

I really do find all of this funny right now. Especially when you realize we will never know what the sales truly would have been since They changed amazing to 3x monthly and since they threw steve mcniven and Dan Slott on afterwards.

 

[kguillou]

^^Styleshift, i wish i could hug you, you hit the nail on the head, thats exactly how i feel about everything. I just recently bought the first three volumes of JMS' ASM run and i gotta say its some of the best Spider-man that i've ever read. JMS had such a natural hold on Peter Parker's character, he made him dorky, witty, and mature at the same time, the way Peter Parker should be. Slott has a pretty good characterization of Spidey, but Guggenheim writes him like a ******ed version of Bugs Bunny and Gale...well Gale just writes him ******ed. Its a shame JMS lost his way and was never able to give his run a proper conclusion, because he wrote some truly phenomenal stuff. The constant marvel events ruined Spider-man and gave marvel an excuse to undo something that was never a problem in the first place. "Peter's getting too old..."pffff. JMS was able to make Peter a teacher and a husband and he still acted young yet still acted his age too. they couldn't find any other writers to write spiderman like that??

 

[farmernudie]

But even the possible "backdoor" of MJ whispering, if they use it now, while trying to go AWAY from the devil, would make it even more inconsistant.

THe devil didn't really do any of this, or a lot of this, because Pete made a deal with the devil but the devil couldn't honor all the deal because other secret people made better secret deals that trump the devil but when it is time to undo the mess, MJ's whisper to the devil who didn't really do anything because a secret person did it, will then undo it because the devil didn't CAUSE it all, but the devil can fix it ALL afterwards maybe possibly kind of, when the backdoor is needed and the layers of added poop don't work.

So yeh,....

1.) They went the devil route. Already gone there.
2.) They'll take us away from the devil route, to better explain the devil route without the devil.
3.) When all fails, we'll return to the devil route with MJ's "careless whisper". Wham!

Then we'll all wake up and find out nobody ever even shot JR and spidey will have one history again and all this time never happened and was a couple year long experiment we can wipe with if you bought it.

 

[Styleshift]

^^Styleshift, i wish i could hug you, you hit the nail on the head, thats exactly how i feel about everything. I just recently bought the first three volumes of JMS' ASM run and i gotta say its some of the best Spider-man that i've ever read. JMS had such a natural hold on Peter Parker's character, he made him dorky, witty, and mature at the same time, the way Peter Parker should be. Slott has a pretty good characterization of Spidey, but Guggenheim writes him like a ******ed version of Bugs Bunny and Gale...well Gale just writes him ******ed. Its a shame JMS lost his way and was never able to give his run a proper conclusion, because he wrote some truly phenomenal stuff. The constant marvel events ruined Spider-man and gave marvel an excuse to undo something that was never a problem in the first place. "Peter's getting too old..."pffff. JMS was able to make Peter a teacher and a husband and he still acted young yet still acted his age too. they couldn't find any other writers to write spiderman like that??

*Gives Cyber-hug*

It really is a shame how badly JMS got screwed in the end. The same guy that made Amazing a worthy title to read once again.

you know....
I picked up the best of Spider-man vol. 3 and after reading it you can REALLY tell that his writing is very inconsistent when you compare it to the later part of his run. Sure he didn't use the regular supporting cast. but thats really amazing when you think about it, JMS is currently the only writer to have taken Peter out of the same old stuff and Make it WORK. New villains AND supporting cast. Now thats amazing.

He even wrote the new avengers well, making Peter stand up well to the other iconic heroes instead of being a complete newbie like Bendis wrote him.

I think alot of reason why people are so attached to Peter's marriage is because of the great work JMS submitted. He is really underappreciated IMO.

But even the possible "backdoor" of MJ whispering, if they use it now, while trying to go AWAY from the devil, would make it even more inconsistant.

THe devil didn't really do any of this, or a lot of this, because Pete made a deal with the devil but the devil couldn't honor all the deal because other secret people made better secret deals that trump the devil but when it is time to undo the mess, MJ's whisper to the devil who didn't really do anything because a secret person did it, will then undo it because the devil didn't CAUSE it all, but the devil can fix it ALL afterwards maybe possibly kind of, when the backdoor is needed and the layers of added poop don't work.

So yeh,....

1.) They went the devil route. Already gone there.
2.) They'll take us away from the devil route, to better explain the devil route without the devil.
3.) When all fails, we'll return to the devil route with MJ's "careless whisper". Wham!

Then we'll all wake up and find out nobody ever even shot JR and spidey will have one history again and all this time never happened and was a couple year long experiment we can wipe with if you bought it.

Ok so I did some research and I get what they were trying to accomplish with Mephisto. It's in character for him to make people act as they wouldn't normally, and he thrives on there misfortune.

Having said that there are two MAJOR things that I don't get.

1. Spidey has met ghost rider. He knows the crap that guys put through because of Mephisto
2. They used Aunt May. I understand that he loves her and everything but she said she didnt want to come back....and the character has run her course by far. I like the character of Aunt May....but I liked her even better when she knew Pete was Spidey.

So much character development wiped clean.
Thats why I'm not as into buying this series anymore...or any other current comic for that matter, if they can force a "quick lazy fix" like this one again.

What's even more funny is that the people at Marvel seem to be hypocrites now....

They wanted to avoid the media with a Spidey divorce. That's understandable....
But now your telling me they had him make a selfish deal with the devil and magically abort his child??!
Not only that Marvel says that Peter has been living with a woman and having a sexual relationship with her out of wedlock.

Nothing but NET BABY!!!

I find it very ignorant of Joe to state that if we want a married Spider-man go to Amazing Spider-girl.
Not true....we don't want to see spidey grow old and die, I mean he's not even Spidey in that book so no technically thats not a married Spider-man. We want him to stay his current age, with his current continuity intact WITH HIS WIFE.
We Want Spider-man, NOT Spider-boy.

All we want to see is a mature and witty spidey that has become the result of all his experiences. That's why I wasn't reading Ultimate Spider-man when JMS started writing....but now they've suddenly changed that again....

 

[kguillou]

You know, i've got to be honest, despite how strongly i am against Pete's deal with the devil, i gotta say even though it's past aunt may's time, it kinda woulda sucked to have aunt may's life end with a gunshot. Aunt May was such a great and pivotal character in Peter Parker's life, she deserves a memorable death (like ASM 400 but thats another story....). If Peter let aunt may die of the gunshot, i think it woulda left a bad taste in every spider-fans' mouth. Her death needs to be big and meaningful, it needs to be sad and happy at the same time (like ASM 400). If May just died by her bedside because of a bullet, it just would've been...sad and depressing. That said, i still dont support peter going to mephisto to bring her back, there's so many other better characters in the MU that could've helped May, i mentioned in another post that it woulda been awesome if Pete made a deal with Doom to save May.

I think MJ should've been the one to get shot. I probly would've made more sense story-wise for peter to give up his marriage with mj in order to save her life instead of May's. I think i could've stomached that more than what we got.

 

[Styleshift]

You know, i've got to be honest, despite how strongly i am against Pete's deal with the devil, i gotta say even though it's past aunt may's time, it kinda woulda sucked to have aunt may's life end with a gunshot. Aunt May was such a great and pivotal character in Peter Parker's life, she deserves a memorable death (like ASM 400 but thats another story....). If Peter let aunt may die of the gunshot, i think it woulda left a bad taste in every spider-fans' mouth. Her death needs to be big and meaningful, it needs to be sad and happy at the same time (like ASM 400). If May just died by her bedside because of a bullet, it just would've been...sad and depressing. That said, i still dont support peter going to mephisto to bring her back, there's so many other better characters in the MU that could've helped May, i mentioned in another post that it woulda been awesome if Pete made a deal with Doom to save May.

I think MJ should've been the one to get shot. I probly would've made more sense story-wise for peter to give up his marriage with mj in order to save her life instead of May's. I think i could've stomached that more than what we got.

Exactly what I was getting at....I just didn't want to get flamed for saying that. lol.

I think Aunt May dying in such a way would have left a very dark and depressing shadow over the Spidey books.

Same thing with MJ. but at least his choice probably would have been a bit more understandable. Eliminate the marriage to save her life.

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

I think MJ should've been the one to get shot. I probly would've made more sense story-wise for peter to give up his marriage with mj in order to save her life instead of May's. I think i could've stomached that more than what we got.

Agreed, but Marvel will release a what if? in which they'll make everything crappier so they can say: "See, we told you that shooting aunt may was better than shooting the girlfriend who once was his wife in another continuity..."

 

[Jack O Lantern]

This whole thing with Spidey has gotten hilarious beyond belief.

Joey Q. is probably Marvel's greatest EIC but at the same time you've got to realize he's made some very bad decisions regarding Spidey ON PURPOSE.

JMS has stated that he figured he'd be able to retcon the gwen kids before he left, and that he would return Spidey to the Stan Lee's days. So most likely they've known as far back as Sins past that they would go down this route. So I'm guessing thats when this whole return to the silver age plan really went into motion. (seeing thats where we also started getting depressing story back to back.)

The story telling by JMS run is very inconsistent. I think he did a really good job of balancing the dark elements that more recent spidey fans are used to with humor that modern fans would find funny.

At the beginning of his run, JMS probably wrote the best humor in Spidey books IMO.
Unlike some writers like Guggenheim he didnt try too hard to be funny. He made Peter witty and he NAILED IT.

Than suddenly during the events that Joe starts actively promoting (again the sins past era) we start to get depressing event after depressing event, with Peter acting HORRIBLY out of character.
which were obviously made to generate sales for a while....

than use it as an excuse to basically say, ok. we did this for a reason. to force you to like the continuity we're about to play around with since we KNOW this isn't what you love about the character.

Joey Q. (since he is basically the personalization of marvel currently) has staked his entire rep on his personal belief that Spidey should be single. HIS belief. because some people actually dont care. I honestly liked the fact that Peter had someone that supported him as Spidey, it also took out the annoying soap opera drama....I mean how many times do we need to see Spidey mess up Peter's relationships?

Marvel is even actively pushing away some of their loyal fans that love continuity.
with Bob Gale and Guggenheim insulting the fan base. Wacker's been the only one professional about it. I hope he stays on the book for along time.

The funny thing is that, for me Amazing has lost much of its attractiveness. I loved the continuity and now they've just made it too much of a headache to follow. Now its much easier to miss arcs. I pick up NWTD only because of the names that worked on the book and not because of the title character. of course after the next part I'll be dropping it again because I find the OMD/BND continuity annoying. like they are writing inside a small box.

They even have a couple of back doors to get out of this and hit ANOTHER retcon button. (MJ whispering)

I really do find all of this funny right now. Especially when you realize we will never know what the sales truly would have been since They changed amazing to 3x monthly and since they threw steve mcniven and Dan Slott on afterwards.

And people wonder why marvel don't listen to fans.

 

[The Bruce]

Why not just use Doc Strange? It would have left a less sour taste in the mouth of fans. Doc helping Spidey like this have happened before and would be in key with continuity and much more in character.

But what really makes me an unhappy camper, is the fact that the last 3-4 years of Spider-man books are useless elsewhere/limbo type books.

As said before

WHAT MAKES SPIDER-MAN A UNIQUE BOOK is the tight continuity. You feel like you know the guy. Let's face it, life seems confusing sometimes and what really made me love Pete as a kid, was the fact that I could always count on the guy. It wasn't the fights and super powered heroics - It was like a lifelong friend living a parallel life to my own, coping with the same issues as I. Continuity is actually the core of Spider-man. It’s what makes him real and relatable.

 

[shinlyle]

And people wonder why marvel don't listen to fans.

It should be "doesn't".

Well, some people liked the fact that every relationship Peter Parker was in would always be destroyed by Spider-Man....others got tired of it after 25 years. Imagine that. People with differing opinions. It's insanity.

Also, Marvel listens to fans, they just seem to ignore anything negative they say.

 

[Jack O Lantern]

It should be "doesn't".

That was a test, you passed.

Well, some people liked the fact that every relationship Peter Parker was in would always be destroyed by Spider-Man....others got tired of it after 25 years. Imagine that. People with differing opinions. It's insanity.

Also, Marvel listens to fans, they just seem to ignore anything negative they say.

What about the people who have been reading for 20 years who have never experienced it?

 

[carnageehw]

I think MJ should've been the one to get shot. I probly would've made more sense story-wise for peter to give up his marriage with mj in order to save her life instead of May's. I think i could've stomached that more than what we got.

Great call.